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Kirkham Motorsports

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 05-31-2015, 12:59 PM
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Default Original Owners Talking About Original Stuff.

Thanks to patty442 for a damn good idea.

This thread is going to be a sticky and is reserved for original owners (past or present), Shelby employees and SAAC honchos (and others who actually know something rather than relying on hearsay or conjecture) to share information about the original Shelby Cobras.

Members are invited to ask questions...but that's about it. If I even think somebody's going off track, I will hover my pointer over your name and hit the button so you can reflect on your errant ways for a few days.

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Old 05-31-2015, 09:06 PM
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Bob have you ever raced any cobras yourself or been around the races when the cars were in their prime, do you supply parts to Cobra racers of the past to keep these cars going or do most guys who race use reproduction stuff on their originals...or anyone for that matter, #3170 always has great stories of racing and working at Ford in the 1960's...
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Old 05-31-2015, 09:14 PM
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In the past year I have been trying to build my library on Cobra Shelby racing history and am fascinated with all the stories of why they did what and how, and it usually comes down to what parts they had laying around and how to use them on their cars for speed and that alone, SPEED...
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Old 06-01-2015, 05:18 AM
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Maybe we can start with the I initial question. What do you know about the "stash" of original parts being used for the new "completion" "comp" cars being sold by the Shelby trust?

Thanks.
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Old 06-01-2015, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REAL 1 View Post
Maybe we can start with the I initial question. What do you know about the "stash" of original parts being used for the new "completion" "comp" cars being sold by the Shelby trust?

Thanks.
Evan...since I know you have the ability to read, I will assume you chose to ignore what I wrote above. This thread is about the original Cobras only...those built in the 60s. A discussion about the parts used then and who may have some now is fine...but not about they may be used in anything built after the 60s. There is already another thread for that.

Pay attention please.
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Old 06-01-2015, 05:45 AM
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I read what you wrote. My question is about the "stash" of original parts being used on the new Shelby Comp/Completion cars. The "subject" is the "stash" of orignlal parts. The identifier as to what "stash of original parts I am referring to" is the what they are being used on.

Please read more carefully. I understand, no problem...you probably just rolled out of bed and put your fuzzy slippers on. .
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Old 06-01-2015, 05:46 AM
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I collected Bob's words from the other thread, so we don't have to switch back and forth.


Quote:
Originally Posted by patty442 View Post
Afraid but here goes. My name is Bob Gingold. I live in Miami, Florida for 35 years. I have owned my Cobra for over 40 years. My wife's name is Patty. She is very understanding. I have alot of NOS 60's original parts. Good night, Bob
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Originally Posted by patty442 View Post
Hello. I had originally attempted to post several discussions on topics that I have lectured on to groups at various past local Cobra Clubs. It was always enjoyable to see grown men taking notes. Guys would come up after and say, I haven't taken notes during a class since high school or college. I have several lectures some short, some longer. Many are very pertinent to this current completion Cobra thread. One on "Evolution and manufacturing, materials and labeling, part numbers, style and finishings from dead nuts original AC factory line installed to current day LUCAS ELECTRICALS. Another comment by the guys at the end of that talk was 'Where were you when I was laying out my dash and firewall." I am a 427 guy only. The only reason that I know anything 289 is that the same part was a crossover to a 427. From what little I have read here on these forums, it seems that Dan Case is the go to guy for that 289 information. I have another talk on Smiths Gauges "How to tell if they are real and original 60's issues". I think your name is Evan, I have a discussion of "Original Hardware" = How to tell the men from the boys". When I am hired to inspect 60's 3000 cars for prospective buyers, checking for replacement chasses and or bodies besides weld styles, and "Upgrades" the bolts and nuts give a real clue to the history of the great cars. No one makes original bolts. Before I restep into the fire, I would like an approval from Ron B. I don't remember but I think Ron said he was from Fresno, I don't know how to save this post to check. I bought my car in Fresno and it was delivered by S&G Motors in San Francisco. I have a beat up photo of my car in their showroom, with one of the owners handing the keys to the original owner. BOB
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HI. I am glad that someone remembers me. Maybe its because I talk to them for 3 hours straight. I want to say that I have known David, Tom and Steve for only about four years. I had discussed having him make a dead nuts copy of an original rollbar. He said he wasn't sure to copy "Some rollbar" . I said I have one with the original shipping box Shelby American, still in the box with a SA tag on the bar, wrapped in 1966 LA Times newspaper. I think Tom was involved with that one. Steve helped me enormously with some issues that I had with a Kirkham that I bought. Yes I have a very early Kirkham. Imagine that. After putting back together my original car, which was stored in zip lock bags for 40 years, I guess it became art. The judges at the Meadowbrook/ St Johns Concours in Detroit thought so , and was awarded their Golden Judges award for the most desireable car in the show, that they wanted to drive home. You can google it. Even though I am quite the old timer, most of you probably weren't alive when I drove my first 289 Cobra, or 427 Cobra when they were available in 64 and 66 at Gotham Ford in NY, I have a 14 year old son. He was getting distant about the race car Cobra because he knew as a little boy that it was a very special car to Poppa, not to come near it. To remedy that I said if I can find the absolute perfect Kirkham for us, that is the right color, the right painter , the right assembler, done and finished, I would go for it. After working on my car off and on for 40 years, I thought I was Cobra tired. For a year he kept asking me call some more people, get a car we can drive. I was talking to Nick about loaning him some more original original parts to reproduce and asked if he knew of any great cars available, must be any shade of dark dark blue. He gave me a lead and said the car was incredible. No offense to David but I wanted a car that felt like my car, not a C6 Corvette with a Cobra body. I contacted the owner and we spoke for probably ten hours straight. He would say original suspension, original girling brakes. He went outside to his garage and starting sending photos. I kept saying original Style suspension, original style calipers. he finally got it. Anyway it had a big KC motor, over 600 and a toploader. So far so good. Now here is the killer information. I bet someone way upstairs had answered my little boys prayers. continued
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continued. too long so I have to retype it. I am glad by case is delayed in the Operating Room so I can continue. I said what exact color, he said nightwatch blue non metallic. Wow same color. Give me the assembler's number. As I wrote them down I said I think I remember that number. Who? He said Billy. I said I worked at his shop for 1 week every 2 months for four years with him assembling a car. I didn't want to let the cat out of the bag as yet. Who painted it. He said Mike D. YES . I said I wanted a history file, service records options, upgrades, changes parts sources engine build sheets etc. I said I need two weeks for research and would come back with an offer. Why so long he said. It would be silly to offer before evaluating the credentials and of course I would come to see the car and drive it. The current owner was 6 four just like me and Billy had made some subtle wonderful changes to make the car as comfortable as my 60's car. I said send me another 200 or 300 pictures of everything down to the greatest detail. Most important to the sale was how it drove I said. He asked how do I know how and original car feels and drives. Rather than sayng I have judged , seen in person, driven or evaluated for purchase more than 100 of the original cars from the 60's , I said "A few". , as the price was somewhat just floating in the air unknown to me or him as yet. And yes it is an incredible car and thank you David and your staff of designers and engineers. continued
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Even my orgnal car engne builder liked it. He said this pulls very strong. He knows strong very very well. He has all four NHRA AA/GT class records, both ends, stick and automatic with his and a customer's ca. A legal Cleveland and a legal 428 CobraJet torn down multiple times as he keeps lowering his records at National Meets. Great friend of over 40 years. Puts up with me which is a big deal. I handcuff him with original parts on the outside of our motors but skies the limit on internals. We took and original Cobra dry sump tank, yes an original, and sent it to the premier Dry Sump guy in the U. S. , he had about 25 tanks on the starting line of the Daytona 500, and had him convert the insides of the tank to his best road race specifications. You can imagine the favor he did for us. I also have a dry sump post for everyone. I sort of smile a little when that topic comes up, and everyone thinks they know exactly how it was. Not sure how many but I think three untouched left. Anyone have a picture of a Cobra not a modified GT40 II dry sump pan, first design. You all know there were three 427 pans. Off the subject, sorry. Many great dyno stories. Big, big , big FE motors. 14 to 1 motors, 48mm to 58 mm back to back quick change runs. continued
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Originally Posted by patty442 View Post
I would have loved to have Barry and Jay in the room to watch the crazy numbers , but I didn't know them then. Inglese and two other Weber guys all had a chance at a 482 mule with Webers at one session on the dyno. Fred Lorenson's HM guy was there also. at one other time with think about a 438 inch stock stroke 427 HR motor to be fair.. He said that's more power than Lorenson, sp? or Andretti ever had. I have a great story about the first four tunnel ports heads ever made that he told me in Charlotte. A great story when we were on the dyno all day, all afternoon, and into the night non stop run after run. At three a.m. two police come to arrest us all for disturbing the peace. They stay, both of them order pizza and just go crazy watching me, my guy and two other lunatics make cam timimg changes, valve lashing loop after loop, ignition timing up and down, and even distributor changes with different curves when we were working on low and mid range for best average power long before the engine masters had that idea, looking for the best combination to make 5 or 10 more usable horsepower. We had top end numbers that were stupid already. I had to fly back to Florida the next day so we had to finish and none of us slept. Expensive day. The cops left when they had shift change. After watching all night, one said as he left, we came here to arrest you for disturbing the peace and take you to jail but after watching the craziness in the dyno cell the cop said I think we should call the crew in the white coats and take you to loony bin at the hospital. You guys are all totally nuts with this motor. I said yes we are and thanks for stopping by.One of our guys identifed me to the cops as a real trauma surgeon, suggesting there was some normalcy of thought and reason. As they left I heard him wisper. "That tall one that they say is a doctor --- he should know better, he's just as nuts as the others except he's wearing long sleeves, protective safety goggles and surgical gloves. That night was close to a divorce for three of the lunatics. Like I said Patty is very understanding. She also responds very well to bribes. Tomorrow a discussion close to the hearts of all Cobra guys "Quick jacks how they were before they even went on the plane or boat from AC to Shelby American. Another, I think funny, funny story with the GT350 H 4 speed car that my Dad rented for me in the summer of 66. They're calling me to start working. By Bob
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Sorry worked early and all night last night. A 6 year old child was ejected from a hi-speed MVA . Took quite some time with the neurosurgeons. In answer to Rod's question three months ago, long before the news announcement I had been contacted by two hi-rollers to survey and evaluate for purchase a car, one of each of the Kirkham produced cars and one of Drew's car. I have spoken with Drew extensively in the past as I was aware of this series of cars for a while. I needed time, and still need to talk to David about his project car. Drew has completed one car and currently had four more stamped chassis with substructures fabrication in progress. David obviously can build an excellent car. I have one, and it is great. I have resisted "to make it more original" with real 60's parts. I am adding a pair of SW 240's rather than the two Bendix diff. pumps that are there. The mounting locations are a little off as are the fittings, and wire terminal ends, color of insulators on the terminals and the color of the wires. The mounting hardware also needs attention. I have close to 150 NOS SW 240 pumps in yellow boxes and probably 40 SW coils, switches, filters and gasket kits everything from around 1971 or 72, when I bought out the SW Regional warranty service center in NJ. Same thing happened at Koni when I could convince my Dad that I needed every last set of 427 Cobra Koni Shocks in the country, or in Holland where they were made, along with every spare part they had. They were already obsolete. I had the original March 65 dated original shocks on my car rebuilt at current Koni. They said the shocks tested very well. They should, they only had 1200 miles on them, I said. They said no parts available. I said take' em apart and tell me what you need. I have everything. Ned I will address your inguiry shortly, but read Kopec's article, to gain some insight to answer your inquiry. I am going to discuss with one of the CC members about posting a few pages at a time. Maybe Jamo can help with that. Bob
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Old 06-01-2015, 05:58 AM
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G-Pete...thanks!!!

Evan...your question asked about what is being used in recent/currently built cars...not going to allow that here. Folks can talk about original parts but not in that context.

...and leave my fuzzy slippers out if it. No more discussion.
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Old 06-01-2015, 08:51 AM
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Jamo,
Is this going to be a forum for "original only" threads, or just one long thread with discussions on originals on going? Looks like some great info already coming out as I hadn't seen the threads G-Pete quoted.

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Old 06-01-2015, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamo View Post
G-Pete...thanks!!!

Evan...your question asked about what is being used in recent/currently built cars...not going to allow that here. Folks can talk about original parts but not in that context.

...and leave my fuzzy slippers out if it. No more discussion.
Uh, Ok.

How about this. .....Bob, what do you know about the "stash" of "original parts DenBeste has?

Thanks.
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Old 06-01-2015, 10:23 AM
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I am in and will comply with the rules.
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Old 06-01-2015, 08:43 PM
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I submit, by reference, my photos of Otto (now Peter) Werlin's CSX2052

CSX2052 at Shelby American Collection

This is the sweetest little 260 car you will ever see. And it's driven. It winters at the Shelby American Collection in Boulder, and then goes on the road in the summer. It was a special treat at Horsefeathers show last year and most people didn't even know.
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Old 06-01-2015, 08:51 PM
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Default stash

I have spoken extensively with Drew about the stash. I just want to give you guys a little history about Drew Serb. Is real name is Andrew. He has been a Cobra guy for many, many years. I have seen pictures of several of his cars. They are great cars. He has a little known full on restoration shop in N. California. Does Cobras. He now also owns Finish Line. When Mike decided to farm his Cobra panel fabrication off site he chose Drew. Debeste knew that. I'm getting a little ahead. Drew and I have exchanged ideas frequently thru the years. We are very, very close. Much more frequently over the last 6 years while the final push on my car was going on. He has asked for some parts in the past for some very special cars in his shop, where NOS 60's only could do. Jamo this leads to this following story. Drew had to have an absolutely original Comp / S/C puke tank, oil tank on the firewall. I said which design, as there was a production change. I had to know the CSX number to supply the original tank. He thought he knew everything, NOT. After I knew the CSX, I said no problem. He challanged me and said I have the original but it was severely damaged. I can tell if you send a reproduction no matter how good it is. I said I have NOS OEM complete and ready. Years ago by office manager, the one who spends and I do mean spends huge amounts of time locating parts for me. She has worked in my office for over 35 years. She took up where I left off amassing the parts. Rather she became a member of the sick one's team. She located the original manufacturer fabricator of the tanks. I don't know how. She handed it off to me. I asked for the oldest guy in the shop. That was the owner. We talked for a while and he said he remembered a guy in California ordered what I was describing in 1964 or 65. He said he had asked for 90 as he checked his paper records - no computer back then. He said the guy wanted 50 immediately and would take the next 40 SOON. That soon never came. Get my drift. He remembers the story. Mind you all this conversation with the old timer was probably 1980. It was only 15 years since the Shelby guys placed the order. Understand also that Shelby fabricated the first ten or so tanks in house and I guess were too time consuming and found this guy to do the run of the remaining 90. I said WHERE ARE THE TANKS. He said give me a day and I'll see if they are still around. Again only 15 years old at the time. 24 hours to the second I called back and he said found them. I said all? He had I think 42 complete and several main tanks extra without the tubing installed. He said it looks like I have enough bent tubing to do about another twenty tanks. I said how much? He said how many? I am sure you guys already know what I said, if you read the SAAC article. I said I want them all. He gave me a price I could't refuse. As we were finishing the details and preparing a Fed Ex envelope with cash, he said I also have extra caps. How many? 250. Add that to the order. You want all the firewall supports. I said sure. I said are the rivnuts installed? He said yes. Are they crooked. He looked and said yes. But wait only a few, he said. I remember my guy was just drilling them in and they were all over the place. I made him make a jig to get them straight. Bingo now we have just found three designs for the tanks. Early, late crooked rivnuts and straight rivnuts. I said hold on partner, where's the jig for the rivnuts. He said he was looking at it and that was why he remembered. Now talking about pulling one out of a hat. DO YOU HAVE THE JIG FOR EACH TUBING installation on the sides? He said just funny you asked. I DO . He threw it all together and an oversized, over weight, UPS box was delivered 5 days later to Miami. Knowing Drew CSX number and with the help of the original fabricator I sent a tank to Drew to knock him out. He went absolutely crazy when his firewall support fit the crooked rivnut line perfectly on the back of the tank. I think his comment was, "You ARE the man." Evan do you think Drew wants to get his hands on those tanks and jigs? My tanks actual are the ones that were originally made and destined for CSX 3054 to 3099 . Imagine that . Now that's NOS if I say so. That's it for tonight. And yes I have discussed the stash that Drew has seen and evaluated. Bob
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Old 06-01-2015, 09:14 PM
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Sorry for the double post. Like I said not to good with the computer. But I can type with two fingers. Good night, Bob
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Old 06-01-2015, 09:28 PM
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Great story!
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Old 06-02-2015, 02:15 AM
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Great story on the tanks...took care of the duplicate post for ya.
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Old 06-02-2015, 06:39 AM
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ahhh Bob Gingold.. A name I haven't seen in a long time. Didn't you live in NY in the mid 70's ???
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Old 06-02-2015, 10:18 AM
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Bob: great story. Yeah, I bet Drew wants those tanks a lot.

So, tell us a about the Denbeste "stash"...
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Old 06-02-2015, 09:21 PM
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I'll have to learn more about this Drew person. Hmmm, I wonder if that's the same guy who runs the shop where my car is getting worked on right now? This bears looking into...
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Old 06-03-2015, 09:45 AM
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So, does someone's stash include the old Holley carbs with the LeMans float bowls?
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