Original Owners Talking About Original Stuff. - Page 2

bret a ewing · #1 (**permalink**) 06-03-2015, 09:59 AM

Sir,

If it would not be much trouble, could we see some pictures?

Please.

Best, Bret.

patty442 · #2 (**permalink**) 06-03-2015, 09:24 PM

To Mr. A-Snake . Thank you for posting the link. I wanted to try that but not very good with the computer stuff. No idea how. Jamo I have reprints and if you send me a mailing address for you, I can mail you the actual paper reprint and if it is OK, can you make it appear on this tread like A-Snake did with the cover and table of contents. There are many great photos that I think the people here would enjoy. I am currently preparing a Quick Jack discussion from a lecture I have given about them, before at a local Cobra Club meet. A hint, it also includes a discussion of what original actually means. It is England, the assembly line, is it as arrived at Shelby American, is it after Shelby American modification or prep, is it at the arrival at the selling dealer, or on the showroom floor after dealer prep, or when it left the dealership, with the new owner. I am sad to admit this but about 30 years ago, I was offered and bought an outstandingly original 23,000 miles 1967 Corvette from New Mexico. Original motor, paint, interior etc. etc etc. I bought it to go through the certification process, of NCRS corvette club to learn originality. I felt that the Corvette people were far ahead of the other marques. Alot of unrestored cars existed to evaluate. Even though I had seen 427 Cobras very early on even as new cars, as the years went by most were hammered and really really hammered. Does a new aluminum body, created by a perfect craftsman, of a wrecked and rolled Cobra add or detract from the value. I have been asked to make that decision for a prospective buyers many many time through the years. How important is a totally original frame, or someone's other frame or even an original frame from another car. Think about that one. ----- The Corvette key to be able to define so closely bolt head, clips real tight details, was all the cars were made on the same line at the same Plant, same guy, from the same bucket of bolts. Uniform-consistent for the entire run of 25,000 cars. Not six plants around the country for 1965 GTO's, each with its local OE bolt supplier. Something to think about when you look at Cobras . What AC did, what Shelby did. Former very consistent, latter, very inconsistent through production runs. GM/Corvette big dollars corporation, SA shoestring. Think small run = cost , convience. Any body know what CS --X on a bolt head stands for? More on the quick jack/ bolt discussion over the weekend. As they say, keep tuned. BOB

A-Snake · #3 (**permalink**) 06-03-2015, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patty442

To Mr. A-Snake . Thank you for posting the link. I wanted to try that but not very good with the computer stuff. No idea how. Jamo I have reprints and if you send me a mailing address for you, I can mail you the actual paper reprint and if it is OK, can you make it appear on this tread like A-Snake did with the cover and table of contents. There are many great photos that I think the people here would enjoy. I am currently preparing a Quick Jack discussion from a lecture I have given about them, before at a local Cobra Club meet. A hint, it also includes a discussion of what original actually means. It is England, the assembly line, is it as arrived at Shelby American, is it after Shelby American modification or prep, is it at the arrival at the selling dealer, or on the showroom floor after dealer prep, or when it left the dealership, with the new owner. I am sad to admit this but about 30 years ago, I was offered and bought an outstandingly original 23,000 miles 1967 Corvette from New Mexico. Original motor, paint, interior etc. etc etc. I bought it to go through the certification process, of NCRS corvette club to learn originality. I felt that the Corvette people were far ahead of the other marques. Alot of unrestored cars existed to evaluate. Even though I had seen 427 Cobras very early on even as new cars, as the years went by most were hammered and really really hammered. Does a new aluminum body, created by a perfect craftsman, of a wrecked and rolled Cobra add or detract from the value. I have been asked to make that decision for a prospective buyers many many time through the years. How important is a totally original frame, or someone's other frame or even an original frame from another car. Think about that one. ----- The Corvette key to be able to define so closely bolt head, clips real tight details, was all the cars were made on the same line at the same Plant, same guy, from the same bucket of bolts. Uniform-consistent for the entire run of 25,000 cars. Not six plants around the country for 1965 GTO's, each with its local OE bolt supplier. Something to think about when you look at Cobras . What AC did, what Shelby did. Former very consistent, latter, very inconsistent through production runs. GM/Corvette big dollars corporation, SA shoestring. Think small run = cost , convience. Any body know what CS --X on a bolt head stands for? More on the quick jack/ bolt discussion over the weekend. As they say, keep tuned. BOB

Bob,
Here is the article from 2013. Normally this would only be available to SAAC members

http://saac.memberlodge.com/resource...3-flawless.pdf

FWIW, this statement is not totally correct. "I bought it to go through the certification process, of NCRS corvette club to learn originality. "
The NCRS does not certify anything during Flight Judging. It is an opinion of the car conditions at that moment in time by those particular judges.

legenmetals · #4 (**permalink**) 06-03-2015, 09:53 PM

Bob I have been reviewing your car for some time from that article and appreciate the details on your car from the safety wired components to the timed screws and bolts. Absolutely beautiful.

I have to ask about the Philip head screws used for the shifter boot on your car. I assume that these are correct but did Shelby ever use straight blade screws?

A-Snake · #5 (**permalink**) 06-03-2015, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by legenmetals

I have to ask about the Philip head screws used for the shifter boot on your car. I assume that these are correct but did Shelby ever use straight blade screws?

Philip head screws were not used by AC Cars. They are limited to only US added items such as the shifter boot, radio mounting plate, windwings.
If a Cobra has no accessories, it has 4 Philip head screws. Add four if it has a radio and add 8 more if it has windwings. This pertains to leaf spring cars, but I don't know of any additional that may be on a coil spring car.

Cobra #3170 · #6 (**permalink**) 12-15-2015, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A-Snake

Philip head screws were not used by AC Cars. They are limited to only US added items such as the shifter boot, radio mounting plate, windwings.
If a Cobra has no accessories, it has 4 Philip head screws. Add four if it has a radio and add 8 more if it has windwings. This pertains to leaf spring cars, but I don't know of any additional that may be on a coil spring car.

My car came with slot headed screws on the shifter boot delivered November 1966.

A-Snake · #7 (**permalink**) 12-15-2015, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra #3170

My car came with slot headed screws on the shifter boot delivered November 1966.

I guess things like that are possible.

Yours is the first I have heard of having slot head screws.

patty442 · #8 (**permalink**) 12-15-2015, 10:22 PM

I almost agree with Mr. Snake. I have seen many cars through the years with slotted screws, owner installed, not original they didn.t know.. I have never seen a very high point car before a mid to late 3200 series car that did not have phillips. I checked my concours SAAC judges sheets. I would take off for slotted screws at that position. I do have an asterik on that line indicating I would allow a slot screw after 3280 or so as I surveyed a car that was outstanding and had the slot screw boot. To 3170. I judged several concours cars , on both sides of your car. Within 10 numbers before and 15 after. All had phillips. I have a collection of reference photos from magazines back to 1962. If any car magazine, no matter how obscure, had the word Cobra, a picture, a race result an ad, it went into my library. Ask Howard Pardee about our magazine run off. His minor collection barely fills a 55 foot semi. Sorry Howard. My brother was also hauling home magazines from England for me in the sixties. New car road tests from England. My lunatic office manager also surfaced unpublished photographs from law suits at AC during there troubled years over valuation of assets, that show production line shots used as evidence of valuations. Finally to answer Mr. Snake, I have judged, or surveyed or just seen in auctions or photos most of the first 21 cars. Most of those cars have been restored many many times. I was nickel and diming cars in the sixties. I use to go into NYC to Gotham Ford everytime my Dad saw a Cobra in the showroom as he was traveling to work. There was a dealer in Washington DC went there if I was home from college if my brother said there was a 427 there. White Plains Ford the same. Taking notes and making mental pictures. Ready, I have seen 2 other phillips screws on 427s. They were there on over 75% of what I deemed uncrashed front hi point cars. The two that pass through the lower oil cooler valence. The area is painted. I assume that SA used a phillips screw for several reasons. First a screw rather than bolt would reduce damage to the paint from the flank of the wrench head. But more likely those fasteners installed at AC were tossed by SA for painting and replaced with phillips because they would be easier to install no slipping. Later 3100 seem to be a mix with no apparent sequencing . Enough tonight on 4 boot screws and two lower valence screws/ bolts. Good night.

Jamo · #9 (**permalink**) 06-03-2015, 10:02 PM

Bob...sent you a Private Message see upper right-hand corner at top) and an email from the site (please reply using the email I listed), and provided you with my mailing address.

marcocsx3121 · #10 (**permalink**) 06-04-2015, 03:48 AM

A comment about CSX3133. and its owner Bob Gingold. Without throwing stones, I was up close and personal to both the car and owner during the 1970s and a bit beyond, and let me say that many of the details in the story were not as I remembered them.

TimG427 · #11 (**permalink**) 06-04-2015, 08:19 AM

Bob, I saw your Cobra at the NCRS Kissimmee Florida Regional and it was beautiful. You gave me a copy of the article and I read it on the way back home.

It was good to see a Cobra, I kept coming back to it all weekend.

patty442 · #12 (**permalink**) 06-04-2015, 02:22 PM

Hi Tim . The car at Kissimee was not 3133. Also the show was at Lakeland Sun and Fun airport. The car was my other car. The Kirkham driver. It was a great show. Did you see when I snuck out on the taxi way and made a few passes. I thought a guy in a yellow shirt was going to come out in a golf cart and throw me out of the airport. Did you see when some dope in a supercharged blue late model Corvette claiming 800 RWH and 24 pounds of boost came out to run. Lasted only 2 gears. He was shocked but was nice about it. Just kept saying I can't believe how fast those Cobra's are. I am glad you liked that car. My buddy is a major Corvette guy here in South Florida and asked me to bring the car to the very same Corvette show where my 67 car was judged years and years ago. He garages my car at his shop. He has 75 cars in his shop and almost 20 guys working for him. He is a 40 year great friend. Next about the certification of Corvettes. Sorry if I used the wrong technical term in your mind. And I really don't need to get into a Corvette discussion here. My point was due to the circumstances of their manufacturing process, clear trends and similarities could be documented. The Corvette guys were as I said far ahead of everyone else. I wanted to learn. I have been a student and a teacher of medicine all my life. It was an alternate source of information. Someones else's point of view. Sure the judges for the day are making decisions. Hopefully they know correctness. Even though I really don't want to start up with you. but you force me, it sounds like the judges of the day maybe didn't appreciate how nice your Corvette was. Just saying. Finally I am not going to respond anymore about the definition of certification, what NCRS stands for, or why they do what they do. They were a source of parallel information and understanding that I could use to improve my own knowledge about production, originality, sequencing, of Cobras. Done I hope with that. About the shift boot. 100% philips on the shift boot. Many 'experts' were concerned about that. Another responder has confirmed that. I have to think, if I have seen phillips hardware anywhere else in the car., from England. I have to check my early judging logs. Did you notice the clocking of 12 3 6 9 on the screw heads? Obviously not necessary or probable in production but I think a nice touch. You didn't mention the shifter. A Hurst??? I have the blueprint and instructions for that clearly labeled Shelby American 427 Mark 1966-1967. I went to Hurst in PA. Don't think it was in there catalog. I spoke to Joel Rosen about it. Not sure if it was special production or Joel talked George Hurst into making it and he would sell it. I saw Joel several years ago in Orlando at a PIR show doing some late model Camaro. Couldn't talk to him for long but he said it was special. I only have seen one other on the Motion drag car 427. Article in a Car magazine about three or four years ago. The uniqueness is the shifter is a Ford pattern reverse down like a ford shifter for a toploader, not Reverse up and to the left like most if not all Hurst Competition shifters. The transmission is also very very special. Finally there will always be nay- sayers [?} not sure if that is a word, in any discussion. If the guy who has a foggy memory of the 70's sends me a PM with your telephone number and I'll gladly discuss any details about the 70's with you. I love to talk about the old days a learn all over again. I liive in the 60's If you want to tell me that the body gaps were never that good, that the cars were never that straight, that my car never left AC with early webers, or a completely original 427 dry sump system, the article clearly discusses that. Read my purpose in finishing the car. All I do know, at the first Concours where it was seen by the public, Meadowbrook /StJohns in Detroit I received a special judges award for the" most desirable car in the show, the car that the judges all wanted to drive home", was engraved on the huge real silver cup that I received. The head judge said I can't give you best of show because only a car older than 1935 can get that. "Its political" . I really really would prefer to respond to detail questions, rather than defend the purpose and direction of the build. Early post today as I have my son's graduation from middle school ceremony tonight. Bob

Blue66 · #13 (**permalink**) 06-28-2015, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcocsx3121

a comment about csx3133. And its owner bob gingold. Without throwing stones, i was up close and personal to both the car and owner during the 1970s and a bit beyond, and let me say that many of the details in the story were not as i remembered them.

x2 !!!!! :d

patty442 · #14 (**permalink**) 12-14-2015, 08:22 PM

Everyone hello. Been very busy all summer. Recovering from broken ankle on race car trailer preparing for SAAC Pocono. Still brought 3133 to the show. M et so many very nice people at the show. I have been inundated for requests for detailed photos and discussions of parts. I will get to everyone. I am finalizing the quick jack discussion. Maybe in about a week. I know this might get me in trouble but here goes. Several entries ago a member Marcos had indicated a discrepancy is his memory versus mine , the author of the article, and his. I had asked for communication via private mail to discuss his concerns. He has not responded. I have been advised by my friends to take the high road. In reponse: I guess jealosy had no time limit. You question MY memory of MY car and My life. I was at those same Cobra Club get togethers that you were. I stopped going because of what was going on. Considering the amount of alcohol and other intoxicants you consumed, I am surprised that you can remember the color of my car or your own name. Again if you would like me to refresh your memory or discuss anything please send me a private email. I have waited six months.

ACademic · #15 (**permalink**) 06-04-2015, 04:59 PM

Bob, would very much appreciate proper hardware details for quick jacks (I am studying the photos in the SAAC article as well). Also, proper Lemans cap "clocking" (angle and/or orientation to the body and fender lines), and proper fasteners/hardware, too. I've seen some at 90 degrees, some at 45, etc. Thank you very much.
-Steve

TimG427 · #16 (**permalink**) 06-05-2015, 06:02 AM

Bob, I missed your venture on the taxi way, I did hear the car when you took it off the trailer. I'm very heavily involved in NCRS, I love both Corvettes and Cobras.

REAL 1 · #17 (**permalink**) 06-05-2015, 06:17 AM

Bob: Could you please enlighten us about the DeBeneste "stash".? How extensive is it and it's source?

Btw, CSX4206 is at Billy's now and is also getting the quick Jack revamp and other "stuff".