Why does every thread here devolve into a "Real" vs. "Replica" argument?

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by JoeT

real & original


not real and not original (CMC version)


current, real? continuation? but not original

I disagree. All the above are Indian Motorcycles. Clearly .

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

... It's simple to me. It's a genuine Shelby Cobra ...

The problem is the use of the word "genuine" without the word replica included somewhere in that description as it implies originality just like "real" or "REAL 1".
Synonyms (genuine): authentic, real, actual, original, bona fide, true, veritable; attested, undisputed; the real McCoy, honest-to-goodness, honest-to-God, the real thing etc.

[Jamo]

Yup...stories.



Obviously McQueen wanted to wear a cool watch like Siffert and the other guys when he was chopping the top off a perfectly good GT 40 and mounting the great grandfather of GoPros for some track footage, so several watches were brought to the set for the on-screen drivers to wear, and he grabbed a Monaco.

Today's models are dressed in Gulf colors or white dials/subdials and all kinds of other motifs. This was just one of the Heuer dress models. Seemed huge when I got it...pre-Panerai.

I'm sorta like the guy in the old milk commercial trying to say "Aaron Burr"...when I put LeMans on, I wear this, Apollo 13 and its the Speedy, Sahara and it's the Doxa, etc.

Wife thinks I'm nuts...that's ok (I am).

Took that pic with this...before digital, this was my small carry camera. Film was asspensive, and even more asspensive to process (only place was in New Jersey) but by golly you could blow it up big...perfect for top secret documents or spy satellite imagery.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

The problem is the use of the word "genuine" unless immediately followed by replica as it implies originality just like "real" or "REAL 1".
Synonyms (genuine): authentic, real, actual, original, bona fide, true, veritable; attested, undisputed; the real McCoy, honest-to-goodness, honest-to-God, the real thing etc.

True. That is a problem with perception. Merely the fact that using the word real may imply something or not depending on what is being asked or merely being stated factually doesn't change what it is. So all depends on what your definition of "real" is. If your definition and pool of candidates is limited to '62 to '68 the Continuation Shelby's are out.

If your definition includes originals and continuation Shelby's as does mine and the Registryi they're in but you should provide the clarification to those that inquire what generation the car belongs to. There is no doubt I own an undisputed, bona fide, authentic, true etc Shelby Cobra. Can't be disputed. Period. I justKe clear what generation or series it belongs to. Easy.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

There is no doubt I own an undisputed, bona fide, authentic, true etc Shelby Cobra. Can't be disputed. Period.

It's definitely a genuine or true REPLICA of a Shelby Cobra, being reproduced by a successor company to Shelby American, which started reproducing them in 1995.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

It's definitely a genuine or true REPLICA of a Shelby Cobra, being reproduced by a successor company to Shelby American, which started reproducing them in 1995.

While it is a replica of the original series it is also a Shelby Cobra. The car replicates the original Shelby Cobra as it must to be the same car. New. Old. Both nearly identical from SAI or is successor. See the World Registry. To say it is not a Shelby Cobra because it replicates the original series is in noting the obvious fact of what it is.

See Registry. It's all set forth very clearly.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

No it is a Shelby Cobra. The car replicates the original Shelby Cobra as it must to be the same car. New. Old. Both nearly identical from SAI or is successor.

"Nearly identical" is relative. The genuine Shelby Cobra replicas that began production in 1995, like yours, don't use the same materials as used in the 1960's. None of the steel, aluminum, interior, etc. is the same as the 1960's Shelby Cobras. But the CSX4000 shape and appearance is roughly approximate though.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

See the World Registry.

The Registry also lists Kirkham Cobras as "real" Cobras. You can draw all the parallels you want with AC, but as much as I love my Kirkham and the Kirkham company, they're not AC.

The Registry will change. I'm counting on it. Disaffected SAAC members will lead an uprising.

[Joe's Garage]

duplicate

[Thor maine]

The watch on the left was given to me by my lovely wife and is my Sunday go to meeting watch. The one on the right I bought in 1984 at a pawn shop in Colorado while in college and has been my daily watch ever since.

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by Thor maine

The watch on the left was given to me by my lovely wife and is my Sunday go to meeting watch. The one on the right I bought in 1984 at a pawn shop in Colorado while in college and has been my daily watch ever since.

Cool...push comes to shove, nothing beats a diver for good looks and toughness.

[Thor maine]

100% Shelby Cobra 1/3 true replica kit car. That about say's it all. If AC and Shelby American and Ford got together and remade the Cobra , that would be a true, genuine, real-1,real deal COBRA!!! A Shelby Cobra made in South Africa or Poland or at McCluskey , is something else. Which is a 1/3 authentic replica kit car. But it is a Shelby Cobra.

[ASO544]

But isn't the process the same it was in the 1960s ?

AC LTD sends over body and chassis, SAI installed drivetrain, attached SA chassis plate and CSX # then sold car.

Now....

SPF sends over body and chassis, SAI installed drivetrain, attached SA chassis plate and CSX # then sold car.

Seems the same exact process other than those cars were titled by the year they were produced and the continuations are all titled as 65s I believe.

I do agree they are true "Shelby Cobras" ( especially the aluminum body ones) just as much as those built in the 60s but misleading to think or declare they are real 60 Shelby Cobras... They are really 90s, 2000s, etc....Shelby Cobras but we all know why they are registered as 65s

My $.02s

[LMH]

Originally Posted by ASO544

But isn't the process the same it was in the 1960s ?

AC LTD sends over body and chassis, SAI installed drivetrain, attached SA chassis plate and CSX # then sold car.

Now....

SPF sends over body and chassis, SAI installed drivetrain, attached SA chassis plate and CSX # then sold car.

Seems the same exact process other than those cars were titled by the year they were produced and the continuations are all titled as 65s I believe.

I do agree they are true "Shelby Cobras" ( especially the aluminum body ones) just as much as those built in the 60s but misleading to think or declare they are real 60 Shelby Cobras... They are really 90s, 2000s, etc....Shelby Cobras but we all know why they are registered as 65s

My $.02s

AC Cars Ltd built complete cars less engine and transmission, ( in general terms) not bodies/chassis. Shipping is by weight/distance. No reason to send drivetrain assemblies to England only to have them returned to the USA once installed. Unneeded cost. CSX numbers were assigned during production in England, not at SAI in California. ( "X" is export designation)

Bodies/chassis for late Shelby cars are supplied from KMS, not SPF as far as I know. SPF cars are officially recognized by current SAI as an official replica of a Cobra 427 or Cobra by contract agreement and are not suppliers to current SAI of anything, as far as I know. (Someone correct me on that if I'm mistaken.)
Larry

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by LMH

....

Bodies/chassis for late Shelby cars are supplied from KMS, not SPF as far as I know. SPF cars are officially recognized by current SAI as an official replica of a Cobra 427 or Cobra by contract agreement and are not suppliers to current SAI of anything, as far as I know. (Someone correct me on that if I'm mistaken.)
Larry

KMS supplies aluminum bodied cars to SAI (originally they supplied just the frame and body, now it seems KMS supplies complete rollers to SAI and at least some of them have billet aluminum suspensions too). KMS is not the only supplier of aluminum bodied cars to SAI. CSX1000 series have been sourced from 2 or maybe even 3 suppliers in England. Early aluminum bodies were also sourced from Kimmons.

Fiberglass cars from SAI were originally built in house, and later supplied as rollers from both Mexico and South Africa. Now they are only sourced from South Africa from the parent company that also makes SPF, but the cars sourced from South Africa are to Shelby specifications (like round tube frames versus square tube frames of the SPF).

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by LMH

AC Cars Ltd built complete cars less engine and transmission, ( in general terms) not bodies/chassis. Shipping is by weight/distance. No reason to send drivetrain assemblies to England only to have them returned to the USA once installed. Unneeded cost. CSX numbers were assigned during production in England, not at SAI in California. ( "X" is export designation)

Bodies/chassis for late Shelby cars are supplied from KMS, not SPF as far as I know. SPF cars are officially recognized by current SAI as an official replica of a Cobra 427 or Cobra by contract agreement and are not suppliers to current SAI of anything, as far as I know. (Someone correct me on that if I'm mistaken.)
Larry

Someone did, but I would have thought that someone professing to be "an expert" would have known this fact.

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

KMS supplies aluminum bodied cars to SAI (originally they supplied just the frame and body, now it seems KMS supplies complete rollers to SAI and at least some of them have billet aluminum suspensions too). KMS is not the only supplier of aluminum bodied cars to SAI. CSX1000 series have been sourced from 2 or maybe even 3 suppliers in England. Early aluminum bodies were also sourced from Kimmons.

Fiberglass cars from SAI were originally built in house, and later supplied as rollers from both Mexico and South Africa. Now they are only sourced from South Africa from the parent company that also makes SPF, but the cars sourced from South Africa are to Shelby specifications (like round tube frames versus square tube frames of the SPF).

The Mexico link is really HST International whose offices were in San Diego and whose manufacturing facility was in Mexico.

The South African "parent" company is Hi-Tech Manufacturing, and they make lots of cars besides Cobras. And they did a few alloy cars along the way (notably, two of the alloy CSX9000 coupes [not the 50th anniversary editions] were built by hand at Hi-Tech. I almost bought one, and Lance said they could build another if asked.

[LMH]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Someone did, but I would have thought that someone professing to be "an expert" would have known this fact.



The Mexico link is really HST International whose offices were in San Diego and whose manufacturing facility was in Mexico.

The South African "parent" company is Hi-Tech Manufacturing, and they make lots of cars besides Cobras. And they did a few alloy cars along the way (notably, two of the alloy CSX9000 coupes [not the 50th anniversary editions] were built by hand at Hi-Tech. I almost bought one, and Lance said they could build another if asked.

I never professed to be an expert. I do know a fair amount about original Cobras and the learning never stops. Something you could adopt as well.
As I stated before, I don't know as much about the Cobra 427 and even less about the current replicas sold by Shelby or SPF (except the SPF Leaf Spring), hence my posting. If I have questions about replicas from South Africa though, I'll be sure to ask you.
Larry

[4pipes]

It doesn't matter what Evan says. The market price of the cars define what the cognizenty already know. Real Cobras sell for somewhere north of $700k. Aluminum continuation cars sell for about $19-$20k more than Kirkhams they're built on. There, isn't that the elephant in the room? People will pay a little more for a Kirkham if it came from Shelby and has a CSX number. Doesn't make them original cars, just a little more desirable.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by 4pipes

It doesn't matter what Evan says. The market price of the cars define what the cognizenty already know. Real Cobras sell for somewhere north of $700k. Aluminum continuation cars sell for about $19-$20k more than Kirkhams they're built on. There, isn't that the elephant in the room? People will pay a little more for a Kirkham if it came from Shelby and has a CSX number. Doesn't make them original cars, just a little more desirable.

And the BJ auction in Vegas is confirming that. I'll update my summary tomorrow as the last car crosses the block tonight.

[1ntCobra]

I was just looking around and found a Cobra coffee mug that I got at Shelby in Vegas years ago. It says "OWN THE REAL THING". Note: the capitalization of letters in that quote is as found on the mug and I am not trying to shout. Hmm, Shelby American is definitely stating that their newfangled Shelby Cobras (continuation, replica or however you like describe them) are REAL Shelby Cobras.

Of course I got that coffee mug at the old original Shelby location in Vegas near the racetrack, not the new less original location closer to the casinos. I am pretty sure that everyone here will agree that my coffee mug bought at the old location is better than any replica mug purchased from the gift shop at the new location regardless of the materials or suppliers used to make any of the newer replica mugs, but that is getting off track a bit.

You know if I went to a car show and my dad asked me if a car he is pointing at is a "real" cobra, I would probably say "no" if that car was not an original cobra from the 1960s. I might also say it is not a "real" cobra because he is probably pointing at a Miata or a Corvette anyway.

Yet my coffee mug, a great source of wisdom and authority from Shelby himself says that his newfangled cobras are "REAL" too. Perhaps this is just a matter of capitalization? Maybe the cars from the 1960s are "real" Shelby Cobras, but the continuations are "REAL" Shelby Cobras. Hmm, no, it cannot be that simple.

So I am going to have to conclude that continuation cobras are both "real" and "not real" at the same time. It is a paradox. A great mystery of the universe.

I also conclude that Joe's Garage, Evan, Thor and friends are all equally right in their thoughts. Further they are all cuddly and lovable and yet extremely annoying at the same time. On no is that another paradox? I just hope that these paradoxes don't cause the universe to start to unravel.