Why does every thread here devolve into a "Real" vs. "Replica" argument?

[Paul F]

Watches? go get your own sticky thread. But I have to admit, it's a nice change.

Now, back to important things. SAAC registry is in kit car replica. The 60's Cobra Walsh ruling with dicta. Ego has a red herring continuation kit Cobra replica heing. Better opinion continuation 427 for me. Don't care kit continuation Cobra in awe. The question answer Cobra 60s kit replica judge kit. Kit car continuation replica car kit replica continuation registry SAAC 60s Cobra kit kit replica continuation registry. Kit kit, replica replica herriing kit continuation SACC Cobra 60s kit continuation better herring kit SAAC.

[jhv48]

Originally Posted by Paul F

Watches? go get your own sticky thread. But I have to admit, it's a nice change.

Now, back to important things. SAAC registry is in kit car replica. The 60's Cobra Walsh ruling with dicta. Ego has a red herring continuation kit Cobra replica heing. Better opinion continuation 427 for me. Don't care kit continuation Cobra in awe. The question answer Cobra 60s kit replica judge kit. Kit car continuation replica car kit replica continuation registry SAAC 60s Cobra kit kit replica continuation registry. Kit kit, replica replica herriing kit continuation SACC Cobra 60s kit continuation better herring kit SAAC.

Finally, he answers all our concerns in a manner even UNREALKITCAR1 can understand.

Kudos for your clarity.

[Paul F]

Sorry, I was having a stroke. What I meant to say is kit hering, continuation Cobra, 60s replica dicta awe. SACC hering replica continuation kit Walsh registry. Ruling SAAC dicta kit herring Cobra 60s replica car Cobra. Registry kit replica continuation kit car Cobra.

[itstock]

Originally Posted by Paul F

Sorry, I was having a stroke. What I meant to say is kit hering, continuation Cobra, 60s replica dicta awe. SACC hering replica continuation kit Walsh registry. Ruling SAAC dicta kit herring Cobra 60s replica car Cobra. Registry kit replica continuation kit car Cobra.

I will not agree to disagree.

[twobjshelbys]

In the end this is a discussion of "market perception". Face it, you really don't care about who your car's daddy is, you care about what its worth.

Well, I checked out the market today. Barrett Jackson has 9Cobras on the docket. That's actually the most I've seen I think ever at a single auction let alone a BJ auction, and enough to derive a trend. [Statistical validity of the trend is not validated, go for it.]

Lot 185 (Thursday, mid afternoon*) Arntz. Car was not present yet

Lot 343 (Friday, late morning) CCX. Car was not present yet.

Lot 374 (Friday, early-mid afternoon) Unique. Good looking car.

Lot 395 (Friday, late afternoon) Factory Five. Good looking car. One of the best FFs I've seen.

Lot 424.1 (Friday, late afternoon) SPF(?) car wasn't yet present and docket description doesn't list original mfgr but lists as "rolling chassis" and mentions SPF side pipes.

Lot 640.1 (Saturday, late morning) Factory 5. Car was there. But wheels and engine are clearly "custom".

Lot 720 (Saturday, late afternoon, early evening) Shelby CSX4000. Nice looking example located in showcase area.

Lot 734 (Saturday, late afternoon-early evening) Shelby CSX6124 (new from Planet Cobra, Stephen Becker). It is a new car.

Lot 752.1 (Saturday early evening) Shelby CSX4380. Nice looking car.

(*time estimates based on block time of about 3 minutes per vehicle).

All of the auctions follow a pattern, Barrett Jackson is no different. If you have a car on the block on the morning of the first day, it will have a condition of x and sell for y. If the model car goes the next day at the same time, expect that to be of condition better than x and sell for >y. The same applies within a day - an evening car will pull a better price than an early day car (because they want to stack them that way).

So note when and what is selling and draw your own conclusions.

By the way, don't feel too jilted. Check the docket for all of those absolutely beautiful new vintage (20xx) Bentleys and compare their original MSRP to when/where the car is scheduled and estimate the value. Last year they were going for <1/3.

[twobjshelbys]

Here's the auction results with some updates on the comments. Prices include buyer's premium of 10%. Divide by 1.1 to get hammer price.

Lot 185 (Thursday, mid afternoon*) Arntz. Car was not present yet. Update: Car was a disaster. It looked like it was painted in an open garage during a dust storm. Final price 26,400.

Lot 343 (Friday, late morning) CCX. Car was not present yet. Update: Car was well done with very good paint. 53,900.00

Lot 374 (Friday, early-mid afternoon) Unique. Good looking car. 42,900.00

Lot 395 (Friday, late afternoon) Factory Five. Good looking car. One of the best FFs I've seen. 42,900.00

Lot 424.1 (Friday, late afternoon) SPF(?) car wasn't yet present and docket description doesn't list original mfgr but lists as "rolling chassis" and mentions SPF side pipes. Update: I looked at this and it was a most excellent looking car. I think the buyer will be very happy. 63,800.00

Lot 640.1 (Saturday, late morning) Factory 5. Car was there. But wheels and engine are clearly "custom". I think the deviation from "cobraness" hurt this one alot. 29,150.00

Lot 720 (Saturday, late afternoon, early evening) Shelby CSX4000. Nice looking example located in showcase area. Update: I was on the block for this. This Cobra was a pair from the same owner that also sold a Series 1 just before. They really hyped the Series 1 but it felt to me that they took time down on the Cobra after the Series 1 to keep time on track. It is repainted to the S1 color. 82,500.00

Lot 735 [correct lot number] (Saturday, late afternoon-early evening) Shelby CSX6124 (new from Planet Cobra, Stephen Becker). It is a new car. Update: To me this was the best prepared car, but it is brand new. 134,200.00

Lot 752.1 (Saturday early evening) Shelby CSX4380. Nice looking car. 74,800.00


So, Shelby branded cars get high prices.

But what matters most is quality. Build an excellent <anything> and your work is rewarded.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Here's the auction results with some updates on the comments. Prices include buyer's premium of 10%. Divide by 1.1 to get hammer price ...

Thanks for the info.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

By the way, don't feel too jilted. Check the docket for all of those absolutely beautiful new vintage (20xx) Bentleys and compare their original MSRP to when/where the car is scheduled and estimate the value. Last year they were going for <1/3.

Smattering of prices:

1998 Bentley Azure convertible: 49500
2004 Bentley Continental GT 41800
2007 Bentley Flying Spur 80300
2005 Bentley Continental GT 62700
2007 Bentley Azure Convertible 104500 (MSRP over 338K from the listing!)
2013 Bentley Mulsanne Sedan 178200
2001 Bentley Azure Convertible 77000
1999 Bentley Azure Convertible 66000
1998 Bentley Azure Convertible 49500
2005 Bentley Continental GT 94600
2005 Bentley Continental GT 71500 (over 175K new)

[Joe's Garage]

Oh I get it, you can't handle the truth

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by LMH

Not true. John Tojeiro left AC after designing the Ace. Alan Turner did some redesigning of the Ace and the Ace 2.6. The Cobra was basically a 2.6 Ace with fender flares for the then new Dunlop 5.5" wheels. Shelby did not design the Cobra but did develop the racing versions. Alan Turner is pretty much responsible for the design of the Cobra.
Larry

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Larry. Good post. Bingo.

PSST, Alan Turner was AC's Chief Engineer on the project.

PRICELESS!

[Joe's Garage]

Thanks Larry, good post.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Thanks Larry, good post.

Yes, you needed that one to try and extricate yourself from having stepped in it.

As always you read into things way to much and see what you want to see.

To bad you didn't read the previous thread on the issue or if you did didn't absorb what was being said. Larry and I actually wound up agreeing. I understood clearly what he was saying above you obviously did not. Here, follow along....AC did make some changes in the Ace chassis and body design prior to Shelby arriving on the scene. The basic car was there in recognizable basic "Cobra" form and shape at the very beginning. Yes, Alan Turner was responsible for that. He was the in house engineer. Like any manufacturer AC was trying to improve it's chassis each year for its customer base. However, it wasn't a Cobra yet. That took a lot of feed back from testing and development at SAI. AC made a lot of changes as directed and requested by SAI to make the little AC Ace (which previously only looked like a "Cobra") into a "Cobra" chassis and some further body revisions that was manufactured by AC with these changes for the "Cobra".

As to AC competing with a car at Le Mans, tell me was that a pre-Shelby developed chassis or post? Please let us know when you find the answer.

As to clearing the dance floor for me. You should. You obviously derive most of your info from internet articles and rely on them way too much instead of published treatises and books written by knowledgeable and respected authors like Legate, etc.... This reflects in the lack of depth of your knowledge... but stick around, despite stepping on your own toes often you will eventually learn something. Example, you should copy the above paragraph for future reference.

As to Tony's sig, Tony hasn't had a Continuation Cobra for a number of years and most vets here know that. Only a newbie would jump on it like you.

BTW still waiting for the pics of that chassis sitting on the floor. Does it even replicate the Tojeiro design? Post up!!!

InFletcher: Yeah, ain't that a scream.

XacK: You believed that? Stop being so gullible son. However, if hypothetically Rolex started to sell their watches in Kit form and you bought one ...would it be a REAL rolex? Careful how you answer.

Thor: I'm fascinated. How did you arrive at the 1/3 formulation?

ASO544: I think glass chassis CSX cars are manufactured in South Africa. I'm not sure about HST anymore. Stopped following it.
Aluminum Shelbys are another story.

[jhv48]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Yes, you needed that one to try and extricate yourself from having stepped in it.

As always you read into things way to much and see what you want to see.

To bad you didn't read the previous thread on the issue or if you did didn't absorb what was being said. Larry and I actually wound up agreeing. I understood clearly what he was saying above you obviously did not. Here, follow along....AC did make some changes in the Ace chassis and body design prior to Shelby arriving on the scene. The basic car was there in recognizable basic "Cobra" form and shape at the very beginning. Yes, Alan Turner was responsible for that. He was the in house engineer. Like any manufacturer AC was trying to improve it's chassis each year for its customer base. However, it wasn't a Cobra yet. That took a lot of feed back from testing and development at SAI. AC made a lot of changes as directed and requested by SAI to make the little AC Ace (which previously only looked like a "Cobra") into a "Cobra" chassis and some further body revisions that was manufactured by AC with these changes for the "Cobra".

As to AC competing with a car at Le Mans, tell me was that a pre-Shelby developed chassis or post? Please let us know when you find the answer.

As to clearing the dance floor for me. You should. You obviously derive most of your info from internet articles and rely on them way too much instead of published treatises and books written by knowledgeable and respected authors like Legate, etc.... This reflects in the lack of depth of your knowledge... but stick around, despite stepping on your own toes often you will eventually learn something. Example, you should copy the above paragraph for future reference.

As to Tony's sig, Tony hasn't had a Continuation Cobra for a number of years and most vets here know that. Only a newbie would jump on it like you.

BTW still waiting for the pics of that chassis sitting on the floor. Does it even replicate the Tojeiro design? Post up!!!

InFletcher: Yeah, ain't that a scream.

XacK: You believed that? Stop being so gullible son. However, if hypothetically Rolex started to sell their watches in Kit form and you bought one ...would it be a REAL rolex? Careful how you answer.

Thor: I'm fascinated. How did you arrive at the 1/3 formulation?

ASO544: I think glass chassis CSX cars are manufactured in South Africa. I'm not sure about HST anymore. Stopped following it.
Aluminum Shelbys are another story.

You guys make me proud. Keep him dancing!

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

ASO544: I think glass chassis CSX cars are manufactured in South Africa. I'm not sure about HST anymore. Stopped following it.
Aluminum Shelbys are another story.

HST went out of business 4 years ago or so. (Not just their Cobra business which was more or less a hobby/passion, but their armored/special vehicle division which you think would have been a sustainable business.) HST also did the carbon fiber cars. They also built (as finished vehicles) the CSX40xxLA series for delivery in Mexico.

[Thor maine]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Yes, you needed that one to try and extricate yourself from having stepped in it.

As always you read into things way to much and see what you want to see.

To bad you didn't read the previous thread on the issue or if you did didn't absorb what was being said. Larry and I actually wound up agreeing. I understood clearly what he was saying above you obviously did not. Here, follow along....AC did make some changes in the Ace chassis and body design prior to Shelby arriving on the scene. The basic car was there in recognizable basic "Cobra" form and shape at the very beginning. Yes, Alan Turner was responsible for that. He was the in house engineer. Like any manufacturer AC was trying to improve it's chassis each year for its customer base. However, it wasn't a Cobra yet. That took a lot of feed back from testing and development at SAI. AC made a lot of changes as directed and requested by SAI to make the little AC Ace (which previously only looked like a "Cobra") into a "Cobra" chassis and some further body revisions that was manufactured by AC with these changes for the "Cobra".

As to AC competing with a car at Le Mans, tell me was that a pre-Shelby developed chassis or post? Please let us know when you find the answer.

As to clearing the dance floor for me. You should. You obviously derive most of your info from internet articles and rely on them way too much instead of published treatises and books written by knowledgeable and respected authors like Legate, etc.... This reflects in the lack of depth of your knowledge... but stick around, despite stepping on your own toes often you will eventually learn something. Example, you should copy the above paragraph for future reference.

As to Tony's sig, Tony hasn't had a Continuation Cobra for a number of years and most vets here know that. Only a newbie would jump on it like you.

BTW still waiting for the pics of that chassis sitting on the floor. Does it even replicate the Tojeiro design? Post up!!!

InFletcher: Yeah, ain't that a scream.

XacK: You believed that? Stop being so gullible son. However, if hypothetically Rolex started to sell their watches in Kit form and you bought one ...would it be a REAL rolex? Careful how you answer.

Thor: I'm fascinated. How did you arrive at the 1/3 formulation?

ASO544: I think glass chassis CSX cars are manufactured in South Africa. I'm not sure about HST anymore. Stopped following it.
Aluminum Shelbys are another story.

Real-1, 1/3 for all to ponder. If Harley-Davidson went out of business and forty years later a member of the Davidson family started a motorcycle company and made a almost exact copy of a bike that was made forty years ago, would you say that motorcycle is a authentic, real, genuine Harley Davidson??? Or would you say that it was 1/2 a authentic, real, genuine Harley Davidson??? Same goes for say Smith & Wesson, if it was just Smith made a copy of the Model 29 , would it still make Dirty Harry's day??? It would still be a fantastic weapon but it would still only be half of what Smith & Wesson was. A Modern day Shelby Cobra is a fantastic car, highest standard but it still is just a replica brought to market by only 1/3 of the company's who made the original (lighting strike) in the 1960's. It is not even a continuation for that same reason, it is something else. So it is a 1/3 authentic, real replica Shelby Cobra kit car. This case is closed.

[JoeT]

Originally Posted by Thor maine

Real-1, 1/3 for all to ponder. If Harley-Davidson went out of business and forty years later a member of the Davidson family started a motorcycle company and made a almost exact copy of a bike that was made forty years ago, would you say that motorcycle is a authentic, real, genuine Harley Davidson??? Or would you say that it was 1/2 a authentic, real, genuine Harley Davidson???

Indian is a great example of this. 1901-1953 Indians are the Indian motorcycles people think of when they are talking about the brand

In '55 they became Royal Enfields with an Indian name tag

in the late 60's to late 70's Clymer was importing them, mostly mini bikes

some guy owned the name from late 70's - late 90's. I'm not sure if they ever produced a bike for market

in 99-'03 CMC was producing Harley knock offs with an indian nametag

05?-11 an English company was making more Harley knock offs

Almost (I'm sure someone owns one and thinks differently)no one thinks of bikes made from 55-'11 as "real Indians"

Jump ahead to 2013 and Indian is owned by Polaris, and they're making GREAT Bikes under that brand name.

But to side with Real1, these Polaris built Indians seem to be considered "real" but they are certainly not being considered original. I wonder if somewhere on an Indian Forum people are having this same debate

[LMH]

The whole discussion of "kit, replica, component, continuation" or whatever other descriptive term one can come up with, to me is silly. There are only originals that ended in 68 and everything else isn't. I don't really want to get involved in that argument and everyone can call their car whatever as far as I'm concerned. So long as it isn't passed off as or mislead as an original, whatever. I think the history being accurate IS important though.
If I could afford it, I would have an original but currently my bank account won't allow it. I love seeing a car that closely replicates an original though. The work and commitment it takes to get it there is surprisingly difficult if done right. I can appreciate it though but civilians often can't as they don't know much about the cars, original or not.
Anyway, back to the show!
Larry

[Jamo]

The Panerai PAM 1...

For Paneristi (lovers of things Panerai), this is it.



For folks that know me, this particular watch has been something that has been with me since before I first came on here. Numerous Gasholes were at first sick to death about hearing about the inherent goodness of this piece (Turk threatened to kill me several times on our road trips...my only way of annoying him as much as he annoyed me playing Connie Francis tapes), and yet now several of them sport Panerais (originals and excellent reproductions) on their wrists, including a few of our brethren in England.

In 1996, I noticed the ads in the Robb Report and was drawn to its heft (44mm when nobody was making anything that big) and absolute clean design. Panerai were purpose built for the Italian military demolition divers before WWII...the predecessors to our SEALS. Don't laugh about the words "Italian" and "military" in the same sentence...more than a few British ships were taken out at anchor from Gibraltar to Alexandria during WWII due to their escapades. They were designed and built in Florence originally, and one of the great strap makers (Paci) still has its factory next to the original Panerai factory in Florence, akin to knowing that the Montana eatery is still visited by Ferrari drivers now as it used to be when Enzo would buy them all lunch during the 60s and 70s (Andretti's top wine label is Montana in tribute).

Stallone came across Panerai about the same time I was wearing mine and took the brand to skyrocketing heights, giving one to each of his Planet Hollywood partners. True story...Awnold heard that Stallone was going to be prominently wearing his in his new (at the time) movie, Daylight. Awnold's own movie, Eraser, was finishing production ahead of it, so he went back and added a snipit to the opening scenes which included a close up of him setting his Panerai just to be first and screw with his buddy. Panerai and the movies and the folks that wear them have become inseparable and continue to this day. Stallone gave them out to his friends in Expendibles, and he and Stathom always show them off when they give the wrist bumps in the cockpit at the beginning and end of each of the Expendibles films.

That being said, I got mine before the hoopla started because it was big enough to look right on my wrist...just like a big block just looks right in a 427 S/C (just having some fun). As with most of my collection, it is first and foremost a tool watch...built to take hard knocks and get dirty (whether it's working on the car or fixing a damn broken sprinkler pipe in the mud). Not a bad investment either...in less than 20 years, my $2,000 watch (in 96) surprised me when Shrive & Co. offered to buy it off my wrist for $16,000 last year or trade it straight across for a new "Bronzo" (Expendibles 2 watch...made out of naval brass) scratches and all. I don't think any modern CSX has gone up in value that much, even Evan's. Hehehe...

Still wearing it most days (on my wrist now) and banging it around...switching numerous leather (some made from WWI leather ammo pouches) straps 2-3 times a week. Getting a Panerai and buying straps is like getting an ink jet printer and then buying the damn ink...it never stops.

The more I hear about who designed the Cobra and which replicas are the bestest, the more I am drawn to talking about watches here...so see how much pain you can take. If I run out of watches, there's always the pen collection to turn to...including long painful discussions about nibs.

[JoeT]

Originally Posted by Jamo

The Panerai PAM 1...

For Paneristi (lovers of things Panerai), this is it.



-snip-

If I run out of watches, there's always the pen collection to turn to...including long painful discussions about nibs.

Lets change the topic to a watch and pen thread as I think the real/kit topic has been beat to death

Today, a PAM 111 and a MB Starwalker Black Mystery (but in full disclosure, I pulled the fineliner and replaced with a fine rollerball)

[REAL 1]

"...there are other examples including beating Shelby at Le Mans in '63 I think. No matter, you have your opinion, I have mine."

This statement was the subject of the discussion and my question. You clearly are a master at taking statements and responses out of context and obfuscating. Dishonest intellectually but that's how you obviously operate.

Was that AC Cobra that "beat" Shelby at LeMans a pre-Shelby chassis or post?

You also clearly need to buy a dictionary.

Where's the chassis? Post up!