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Kirkham Motorsports

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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2017, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LMH View Post
As well as other events, I attend some track day events a few times a year. A lot of the groups, especially the lower ones, are made up of these street racers. Most don't have any professional training beyond a video game! Few know much about racing, braking, track setup or etiquette. They're all over the place through corners and esses and you can't trust what they're going to do next. To a lesser extent, that even happens in the upper groups but they tend to be much better. I can just imagine how these guys would be on a public road where there aren't flagmen and track workers keeping an eye on them.
The OP stated in one of his posts that we "don't need to worry about him" but it's not him that worries me! It's the family car he drives into on the outside of a blind corner as he comes out too hot! That's how I see it anyway.
Larry
That inconsistency is why I never tracked my car in Colorado. Some friends went to a track nearby and I went to watch and these guys in their beaters were all over the place, came close to causing several accidents. I talked about it with my friend who had just gotten a new Boss 302 and he said it was normal for this particular group and that he avoided that time. I never went. I just went to the Bondurant classes and drove their cars. $2K for the class with people interested in learning was a lot less than 200K for my car with a group that thought that it was a demolition derby.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 09-06-2017, 05:12 PM
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Answer to the question: Mine
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 09-06-2017, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morris View Post
At the present time the times we've run at various tracks are faster then the GT-2 times and mid pack on GT-1 times.....
Wow -

chr
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 09-07-2017, 05:48 AM
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I'm certain everyone has their own answer for this question. Mine is that I set my big block car up to road race which ended up working very well even for an occasional drag race. Spent quite a bit of time working with a super modified car owner builder setting the suspension up.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 09-07-2017, 03:11 PM
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Jbl..
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 09-07-2017, 06:40 PM
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Jbl..
do they still make cars? I see a big NLA on the page for the only link that works (I assume it means no longer available)
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 09-08-2017, 03:52 AM
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If I recall correctly someone bought the tooling.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 09-08-2017, 07:29 AM
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The one with the "best Driver".

I would rather see the street racer types on track (maybe) taking each other out, but learning at the same time (maybe). We all started out somewhere driving (out of control). Some will turn their talent in to real skills, other will crash, burn and move on with some skills, some will text drive and kill.

Mark.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 09-08-2017, 10:14 AM
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Looks like the OP is selling his...
PhotoPost Classifieds - Superformance MkIII w/Roush 427R (550 hp) - Powered by PhotoPost Classifieds

must have found one that does, in fact, handle better.


At least I am assuming that "csense" and "commonsense" are the same person.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 09-08-2017, 11:17 AM
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It's all about tires. Tires win races.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLZnYp1hG2I
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 09-08-2017, 07:54 PM
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Of course Morris could not be more accurate - a Cobra by nature, with its short wheelbase, light rear and archaic suspension is a poor handling car. I honestly have never seen one that is remotely quick around a track - Morris's car would obviously be an outliier...

A REAL competent race shop can do wonders with a car - suspension have to be calibrated and designed around the entire package - it is truly an art. Not being able to get away from the old suspension would make it difficult for many to ever be quick - not matter who is fine-tuning them.

Back in the day - 15+ years ago when I was running around in these things - the JBL had the most promising chassis.

Tony

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morris View Post
It is impossible to buy a Cobra that handles like a real
Road Racing Cobra......

The suspension, steering, and lack of chassis stiffness is not good enough to be predictable on these cars.....

And you don't have enough knowledge to build a National Competitive vehicle....so you might want to get a vehicle that has all those thing worked out and you just push a button to save you when the car goes out of control.....

At the present time the times we've run at various tracks are faster then the GT-2 times and mid pack on GT-1 times.....and that's on fast tracks like Road America .....and slow tracks like Gateway StL....

Sorry to be so honest.....but better to be honest and alive then foolish and dead...

Morris/KMP259
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 09-08-2017, 10:04 PM
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Most Cobras, including big blocks are pretty neutrally balanced (50/50) front to rear because of the rearward placement of the drivetrain. The 289's had an archaic leaf-sprung suspension, but the redesigned 427's were brought up to date (circa back then) with their coil-sprung chassis.

The often repeated myth that Cobras are nose-heavy and tail-light is just that: a myth. The limitations they face are in their dimensions; wheelbase and track, along with poor high-speed aerodynamics and the old manual brakes and steering.

Absolutely true that a competent suspension guru could do wonders - as evidenced by Morris's Kirkham and by CSX3170, who is generally holding his own and kicking butt with an original Cobra against late model, race-tuned machinery.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2017, 05:02 AM
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Cobra's are hot-rods...they were back in the 60's and still are today (especially the kit-cars out-there). Anyone who has spent a considerable time on the track will understand that there is a UNIVERSE of difference between a competent, reliable track car and that of a "hot-rod". There was a time when I thought the multiple Cobra's I owned would have been more of a true performance car - that was before I knew anything - now I do.

I have also seen first hand what it takes to make a Cobra effective on the track...it means you make it generally un-Cobra-like. Not a knock in the least but so many changes have to be made that it changes the essence of the original concept. For those who attempt to drive their "hot-rod" in anger, whether on the street (highly ill-advised) or track, please be very careful.

I currently own arguably the most powerful Cobra on the planet and it has an ugly 12-point cage (but oh so necessary). A cobra that was actually meant to go-fast, properly, must also have massive modifications to keep the pilot alive in a mishap. They are not safe in typical dress...its all for show. Function takes the lead step in a real performance car - even in a Cobra...

Tony
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Last edited by Cracker; 09-11-2017 at 03:11 PM..
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2017, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Cracker View Post
Cobra's are hot-rods...they were back in the 60's and still are today (especially the kit-cars out-there). Anyone who has spent a considerable time on the track will understand that there is a UNIVERSE of difference between a competent, reliable track car and that of a "hot-rod". There was a time when I thought the multiple Cobra's I owned would have been more of a true performance car - that was before I knew anything - now I do.

I have also seen first hand what it takes to make a Cobra effective on the track...it means you make it generally un-Cobra-like. Not a knock in the least but so many changes have to be made that it changes the essence of the original concept. For those who attempt to drive their "hot-rod" in anger, whether on the street (highly ill-advised) or track, please be very careful.

I currently own arguably the most powerful Cobra on the planet - along with its 12-point cage. A cobra that was actually meant to go-fast, properly, must also have massive modifications to keep the pilot alive in a mishap. They are not safe in typical dress...its all for show. Function takes the lead step in a real performance car - even in a Cobra...

Tony
CSX3170 is a hot rod? I think not . And although it has had extensive suspension mods and adjustments, I'm sure it's still very Cobra-like.
Not all replicas are created equal, so while there is iron in your words, it doesn't apply to all. GS-Cobra in Germany builds an awesome performing replica that looks the goods from the outside, but uses up to date date tech for everything from drivetrain to tires. XCS Cobra (UK) does as well, but both (XCS even more so) feature refinements that deviate from the original in feel and performance.
I also can't agree that the signature Cobra features are "all for show". While there are replicas being built with exaggerated fender bulges, cosmetic roll bars and shiny sidepipes that are more a styling exercise than anything else, true (and well-replicated) 427 Cobras have fender bulges to accommodate big tires and suspension travel under low-slung coachwork. The roll bar was functional (inadequate by modern standards, granted) and the sidepipes were there to allow large diameter exhausts without compromising ride height and ground clearance. They happen to look good but they were not conceived for styling or show.

The most powerful Cobra on the planet - I remember your epic KC dyno challenge thread from a while back, but I couldn't find anything on this car. Can you fill us in on the details? Is it the one in your album with the moon capped wheels? I'd love to hear more.
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Old 09-09-2017, 12:59 PM
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Buzz: Outliers are always present...no matter the topic of conversation. If I were to plop a 427 body on top of a c7 chassis - that is not a Cobra to me - same is true with outliers you speak of in your examples. If said cars represent less than 1% of all Cobras and replicars made - it really is non-representative of what I am referencing. Understand?

#3170 wouldn't fare well against tge majority of semi-racy hot rods of today...that does not diminish what it is and accomplished. It does, however, put the phenomenal advancement that has occurred over the last 50-years. Heck, even my old 1970 914 would outperform it...

Regarding the moon wheeled car - yes, it is immensely powerful.

PS: Typing from my phone...please forgive errors!

Tony
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2017, 02:05 PM
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#3170 wouldn't fare well against tge majority of semi-racy hot rods of today...that does not diminish what it is and accomplished. It does, however, put the phenomenal advancement that has occurred over the last 50-years. Heck, even my old 1970 914 would outperform it...

Tony
3170 does fare well against far more modern machinery. There are several threads about this and numerous videos. I don't know what you've done to your old 914, but unless its heavily modified I suspect you'd be handed your arse on a platter. All pointless bench racing anyway. Suffice to say we disagree.

So you're being all coy about your "most powerful Cobra on the planet", but if you don't want to talk about it, why the hell bring it up in the first place?
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Old 09-09-2017, 02:52 PM
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Buzz - I am more than happy to have a differing view - your's as well. Mine is grounded from years of on-track experience; not knowing your background, your's may be as well. Not all drivers sharing time on track always see things the same way - no biggie and nothing personal. The POINT of the "powerful Cobra" comment was reinforcing that Cobras intended for actual performance driving require substantial safety improvements by today's standards. Allot of drivers from racings' past went on way to early. I am a bit surprised that went over your head. Regarding the "powerful" car...I am merely a caretaker of it. I had nothing to do with its creation. My dear late friend built it along side Jon Kaase - allot of the chassis was built there too.

Kind regards,

Tony

Last edited by Cracker; 09-09-2017 at 03:26 PM..
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2017, 03:14 PM
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Thanks for the clarification.

All the best.
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Old 09-11-2017, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cracker View Post
Buzz: Outliers are always present...no matter the topic of conversation. If I were to plop a 427 body on top of a c7 chassis - that is not a Cobra to me - same is true with outliers you speak of in your examples. If said cars represent less than 1% of all Cobras and replicars made - it really is non-representative of what I am referencing. Understand?

#3170 wouldn't fare well against tge majority of semi-racy hot rods of today...that does not diminish what it is and accomplished. It does, however, put the phenomenal advancement that has occurred over the last 50-years. Heck, even my old 1970 914 would outperform it...

Regarding the moon wheeled car - yes, it is immensely powerful.

PS: Typing from my phone...please forgive errors!

Tony
I am probably going to regret jumping in on this thread but feel the need to
to defend poor old CSX 3170. I am primarily an autoxer but have raced Formula Atlantic cars in the past and various other machines over the years.
People tend to put down autoxing as racing around cones in a parking lot especially if they have not done it. It is far more difficult than road racing from a technical standpoint (I am speaking of amateur racing not professional
levels). My car was developed specifically for autox so that is what it does
best it is also developed around 200 tw street tires. Having said that I have no doubt that it's track performance would also be quite good. You are
correct it would be extremely unsafe for the driver and car so no track days for me. I also own a very competitive 991 GT3 Porsche that won the 2016 and 2017 Solo2 National Championship in SS. It beat Porsche GT3's and GT4's, C7 Corvette's and a new Honda NSX hybrid last week at the Nationals.
Now that we have established it's credentials my Cobra is 1 to 2 seconds faster than my GT3 on the same autox track using the same Bridgestone tires. The only difference is the Cobra uses 1 size larger front tire.
We have the Cobra instrumented and it pulls over 1.45 G's in lateral acceleration and 1.2 G's in braking. We have seen 1.1 to 1.2 G's in acceleration all the way to 90 mph so the car stops, goes and turns well by any standards. We have no aero dynamic aids so Morris can take on the "semi racing hot rods" that do. The Cobra has 19x12" rear and 18x11" front wheels, 6 piston front brakes with full floating 13" slotted rotors and 4 piston 12" rear rotors. The engine is red lined at 9300 rpm and makes 820 hp and 556 lb/ft. Weight distribution is 48/52 at 2370#. Suspension is my design and has excellent camber gain and relatively perfect bump steer, bring on those new cars! Here is a video from several years ago with old engine. It made 850 with 632 lb/ft but would only turn 8200 it has a 3:31 rear and has the following speeds in gear @8200 1- 83, 2 - 112, 3 - 148 notice how well it pulls gears we could not use full throttle because of wheel spin, bring on that 914!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hedl...hpJ1Q&index=46


I think Jon Kaase is the best Ford engine builder out there but getting it to the ground is the hard part.
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Old 09-11-2017, 12:23 PM
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1.45G lateral!! Wow!
Larry
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