Kirkham for sale

[MOTORHEAD]

Tony;
No pounded out aluminum here, all new panels from Kirkham !

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by MOTORHEAD

Tony;
No pounded out aluminum here, all new panels from Kirkham !

So a fire caused irreparable damage to the body that you had to replace some/all? And later some to the frame? That puts a little different spin on it. Maybe it would help there if you posted more details of the damage and what restoration was done to mitigate. Lots of cars are totaled these days because of the labor to repair. Almost any minor collision on a Ford GT is totaled - labor and parts availability make repairs sometimes impossible. But in the hands of an artist can be completely mitigated and documentation can help preserve some of the value. Aluminum is surprisingly friendly to someone that knows what they are doing (vis. the video of David Kirkham repairing a damanged fender).

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

What you really need to say is " as I do not know any legal way to excise a "cursed" title."

I personally do not know of any way, legal or illegal to change the history of a currently "rebuilt titled" vehicle.

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

So a fire caused irreparable damage to the body that you had to replace some/all? And later some to the frame? That puts a little different spin on it. Maybe it would help there if you posted more details of the damage and what restoration was done to mitigate. Lots of cars are totaled these days because of the labor to repair. Almost any minor collision on a Ford GT is totaled - labor and parts availability make repairs sometimes impossible. But in the hands of an artist can be completely mitigated and documentation can help preserve some of the value. Aluminum is surprisingly friendly to someone that knows what they are doing (vis. the video of David Kirkham repairing a damanged fender).

The pictures that I have seen of the car pre-rebuild show a lot a fire that had to have caused additional "birdcage" damage to the car. The only pictures of the car under repair that I have seen to date show outer body repair and no detail of additional repairs to the inner birdcage substructure. The current pictures show an absolutely beautiful car, minus the once equally as beautiful multi weber carb assembly that previous adorned the engine compartment.

When I still had my bodyshop in PA, I sold several 5.0L converted Miatas with PA rebuilt titles in to Florida without an issue that I ever heard of. From what I can remember, Florida took the PA rebuilt title, then affixed a permanent decal to the car stating it was a previous salvage vehicle and issued a rebuilt title of their own. In one case, the car needed to go through a "rebuilt title inspection", passed without an issue....Perhaps this is the case with this car, without knowing all of the details, and what occurred during the attempted title transfer, it would be difficult to ascertain with a measure of certainty.

Bill S.

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

What you really need to say is " as I do not know any legal way to excise a "cursed" title."

Originally Posted by mrmustang

I personally do not know of any way, legal or illegal to change the history of a currently "rebuilt titled" vehicle.

Bill S.

Agree - Once a car is wearing a VIN number that is matched to the VIN number printed on a bonded paper title document, that VIN plate may not be legally tampered with, altered, or removed.

Of course, many states have documented procedures for rectifying a car's VIN and title condition; if the car's original VIN plate should somehow happen to "fall off" the car and become lost while barreling down the highway (Hey, it could happen ). these states will issue a brand new VIN number (which they will affix to the car) and will also issue a new title, which matches the car's new VIN.

and since the car is a "custom built component replica" the new title will carry a SPCON (special construction) designation.

But in this case, That's just too much hassle... I don't necessarily agree that the restored brand on this car's title is going to result in any more than maybe a 10% hit on the resale value... It's still an aluminum bodied Kirkham, after all.

A free (and worth every penny) suggestion: consider submitting it to Bringatrailer, including pics from the fire and the post-fire restoration, and ask for a 125k reserve. (which is easily a 20-30k premium to what one could conceivably build an equivalent Kirkham today)

You might get lucky and they might run the listing. Kirkhams' usually do very well on BAT.

BAT isn't what it used to be (a place for people to list automotive auctions that TRULY "needed a trailer" )

Today, BAT is the haven of heavy 6 figure Porsches, Ferraris, Corvettes, restomod Broncos, and the occasional Cobra replica

I'm reminded of the FF Mark II that brought almost 70k(!) a few months back. That car must have had some kind of MAGIC brand on its title

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by moore_rb

Agree - Once a car is wearing a VIN number that is matched to the VIN number printed on a bonded paper title document, that VIN plate may not be legally tampered with, altered, or removed.

Tampering with a VIN is bad. What was the Oklahoma group that got caught making Shelby Mustangs???

Remember when the 68 GT500s were re-VIN'd to 69? The FBI was present to be positive old VIN plates were completely destroyed and 69 plates attached.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Remember when the 68 GT500s were re-VIN'd to 69? The FBI was present to be positive old VIN plates were completely destroyed and 69 plates attached.

Just a slight correction with the above statement:

Unsold, 1969 Shelbys were, under FBI supervision, were re-vinned as 1970 models. The original 69 VIN stamped into the unibody were not altered, only the VIN tag on the dash, and the removal of the metal drivers door data tag (specifically labeled "not for title or registration"), replaced with a 70 door data tag label (70 was the start of labels). Besides some internal changes in order to pass 70 emissions, the only way to tell the 69 and 70's apart visually was the addition of twin hood stripes, and the 70 Boss 302 style lower front chin spoiler. Look closely at my avatar .

Bill S.

[1985 CCX]

Sweet car however registration could be an issue, insurance issues and also banking issues.

Sort of makes it a cash buy with a roll of the dice on the rest.
I think, we all have an opinion, its a 30-50% hit on value.

Do I see this as not a big deal, yes!
Car has been completely rebuilt, problem is not everyone (state or insurance carrier) may/may not feel the same.

[patrickt]

Why not buy a new frame from KMS and patiently unbolt every piece of the car and move it over to the new frame? Wouldn't that be a new car to title and register?

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Why not buy a new frame from KMS and patiently unbolt every piece of the car and move it over to the new frame? Wouldn't that be a new car to title and register?

The VIN plate on a Kirkham is affixed to the body, not the frame. I'm not sure if they stamp the number into the frame as well...?

Regardless: You would need to purchase a new body (wearing a new ID tag)
and possibly a new frame (if they are indeed number-matched), and including a new MCO document from Kirkham for your idea to work...

I'm not sure what Kirkham's legal capability would be to fulfill such a transaction...?

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by moore_rb

The VIN plate on a Kirkham is affixed to the body, not the frame. I'm not sure if they stamp the number into the frame as well...?

Regardless: You would need to purchase a new body (wearing a new ID tag)
and possibly a new frame (if they are indeed number-matched), and including a new MCO document from Kirkham for your idea to work...

I'm not sure what Kirkham's legal capability would be to fulfill such a transaction...?

Kirkham will build you a bare body and frame assembly for whatever use you so desire. With this they will include a MCO/MSO with the chassis number stamped into the frame assembly. Uncertain if the same is stamped anywhere on the body itself, for that I suggest asking David Kirkham directly.

As for the comments above, specifically mine, I do so openly and honestly, with no malice, presumed or otherwise, as this is the "All Talk Cobra" discussion subforum, a place on this website for the open discussion of just about anything cobra related. If this was the classifieds, I would not have spent the time to dive deeper into this car and it's history, nor the hour or two that I spent reviewing the last 10-14 months worth of comparable cars and sales. My mindset towards participating on this thread were easy, discussion is discussion, if the owner/seller (long time, well known/respected on this site) did not want the car discussed, he would have never posted it in this particular subforum, but would have posted within the classifieds section, where such discussion is looked down on.

Regardless, I wish the seller the very best in the sale of this beautiful car.

Bill S.

[Phx Mike]

Originally Posted by moore_rb

The VIN plate on a Kirkham is affixed to the body, not the frame. I'm not sure if they stamp the number into the frame as well...?

Regardless: You would need to purchase a new body (wearing a new ID tag)
and possibly a new frame (if they are indeed number-matched), and including a new MCO document from Kirkham for your idea to work...

I'm not sure what Kirkham's legal capability would be to fulfill such a transaction...?

For a Kirkham, there is a VIN plate on the passenger side foot box under the hood but VIN is also stamped into the shock towers and onto the door hinge mounts on the frame.