New Shelby Cobras??

[TerrysSPF]

Well, I just got back from a long weekend away and on the way home, we traveled through Cinicnnatti, and of course, had to stop at Dynamic Motorsports and dream a little! I took some pictures of the new Coupe, but pictures really don't do this car justice. THAT is one AWSOME looking car. VERY well built as well.
I'll post the pic's as soon as I get them back.

Evan: I wanted to touch on something you said earlier about the new CSX roller coming with quite a bit as "standard" equipment vs. the ERA's. I recieved a price sheet and booklet in the mail from Shelby American Inc. the other day (so I can start comparing the 3 brands to see what I would get for my hard earned dollar!). I think the CSX and ERA cars are going to battle it out as far as price and options go. Both are about the same. I don't think these new Shelby rollers are going to effect SPF as much as ERA, just because there is still quite a bit of a price difference (for most people) between the SPF / CSX car........once you add all the "extra's" onto the CSX car to equal what SPF includes on their car as "standard equipment". I was easily into the mid 40's on the Shelby roller vs. the 36.9K of the SPF (and that was starting with the 39.9K "introductory price" that is supposed to go to 42.5K in a couple days!). At the new price, the CSX cars will be upper 40's vs. upper 30's on the SPF. Some people don't blink at 10K, but for others, I think it could be the deciding factor in what you end up with. If you're in the market for a roller, check everything out carefully, because it sure isn't the 3K difference it "looks" like on paper (36.9 vs. 39.9).
The CSX DOES look like it's built with some good stuff, however. I was also told they are going to make some improvements on the cars over the proto-type, and I'm sure they will improve upon the car in the coming years (just like ERA and SPF have done to their cars). I still need to see some on the road before I can make any decisions.
Speaking of upgrades. While at Dynamic today I was told that the new cars are now coming with the larger Olthoff swaybar on the rear to make the car ride and handle even better than it already did. ..............I still can't get over that Coupe, though. I can't wait to get the pic's back!

[Turk]

Terry,
Very seldom I go to bat for Evan but this time I must.

Comparison between an ERA and SPF is just not right. I don't know of ANYONE who bought the ERA over a SPF because of the price. I didn't even think they were even in the same class..
$39,00 to $40,000 for an ERA roller without paint or tires and wheels. Hardly a price issue. Wouldn't you say?

If there was any car that will go unaffected by new Shelby cars it would be the ERA.

Hell they are 13-24 months backlogged. If it was to cut into their orders to the tune of 10 months , ERA would still be selling every car they can produce and none would be sitting on the shelves waiting for buyers.

I can't believe that when people start shopping for cars at this price range they are looking to see which one comes with this or that at the same price. If that was the case ERA would not sell another car.
I don't think folks who have never owned an ERA understand the mystic behind the car and the company.

I am not going to bat for CSX nor am I putting down SPF as much as I am trying to point out that, ERA is an ERA and they don't need any favorable or an unfavorable comparison to what else is available in the same price range. if they did, they wouldn't have sold another car since SPF was introduced to USA.

TURK
People shopping between a Toyota, Honda and a Ford may make those type of comparisons to see which one comes with what. I doubt a BMW shopper enters the same cars to the above check list to see if the Bimmer compares favorably.

[TerrysSPF]

Turk: First, let me say that I own a BMW. Yes, I comapred what BMW offered in their 5 series (I have a 540I Sport) to what Audi's 6 had, the Jag S-type, Lexus GS430, Merc. E430, etc..... But when all else failed (they were ALL nice cars with similar features), I DROVE them. The Bimmer won.

I'm sure people will compare Cobra's by driving them as well (as they should!). I'm simply saying that for those of us who think 10K is a good chunk of change (or, maybe someone would rather take that 10K and put it toward the engine vs. the chassis), I think the CSX cars compare more to the ERA's in price than to the SPF's. Sure, ERA's are great cars; I've seen several and think they are at the top of the class (and I've said this before). I've always liked them because (IMO) they have the "correct look" and stance of the orig. cars. Well, now there is another "correct looking" car out there in the same price range. That won't effect ERA's sales (especially when you add in the ERA waiting time)?? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell.
I'm just saying that the new CSX cars are closer in price to the ERA than they are to the SPF (after adding all the "extra's that are on the Shelby options list).
You may not know anyone who purchased their ERA over a SPF because of price.........but I can name quite a few people who bought a SPF over an ERA just for that reason. If someone has the money to buy an ERA (roller vs roller.......not unpainted, no wheels, etc......) then, sure, I would probably buy the ERA. But I was at a lot more than 40K when I added it up.

[Tout]

I think Terry is correct in what he is saying ,there are a lot of buyers that can spend only so much for their car. I know that when I bought my first cobra,I started from the top and found three that were in my price range and all had great quality.In the end I did chose the SPF ,the difference in price between SPF and ERA was a factor when options were added inand turn around time also, most of all WE had a great experence with the Rosens. Also when I bought this car the numbers were only in the 380 to 400 range and no used cars were for sale ,what a differance today. You can buy a used car for 10K less with 1000/2500 miles or even less, and this includes all the manufactures. Today buyers can upgrade to a car they could not afford before, if they dont mind a few miles.As for the new CSX cars time will tell, yes they will sell more than what they did in the past, the price is now in a range of a lot more buyers. Tout

[BlueRooster]

I dont think CAV will have that big of an effect on replica sales. If anything, it seems that the amount of excellent used replicas would have a bigger effect on prices. That doesnt seem to hold water either as most replica manufacturers are raising prices.

Remember, there would be no "continuation" anything, if it weren't for all the excellent replica manufacturers that we have today. I just dont see a fiberglass, SA car with a Shelby sticker on it making that big of an impact on a marketplace that has been thriving for over three decades.

It would only take 100 guys to keep that SA factory busy for over a year...what about the other 10,000 guys that want them.

[BANDIT 1]

I found in most of the ERA owners that I have met that their reason for purchasing the ERA Cobra was that it was "original looking", very well built, had the ERA reputation (everyone respects a ERA Cobra, I know I do...), 427 or 428 FE engine, they wanted to drive it more than they would if they had purchased the aluminum CSX Cobra, and that it was less than a comparable CSX aluminum "real" Cobra.

I think that to someone looking for a "real" looking Cobra at a lower than a CSX aluminum Cobra price, you would have to bring the CSX/CAV Cobra into the ERA price range and therefore it would be affected. I am NOT saying it will bother ERA with their long wait and quality product, only that it will take some customers away. After all, the CAV Cobra is a "real" Shelby Cobra.

I still say that the ERA and Shelby Cobra are a way different car than a Superformance Cobra. A 427 S.O. engined Cobra with Top Loader 4-speed and all "original" looking down to the fans in the front of the radiator have nothing to do with a Superformance Cobra with a 500c.i.+ "stroker" engine and a Tremec TKO II transmission (no fans in front of the radiator, square tube frame, etc...).

[Dan Stryffeler]

It seems that we are always trying to decide what a 'Cobra' buyer is and then pidgeon-hole them into some category... we are all individuals and make purchasing decisions for different reasons.

If anyone here can define why a group buys a particular car, please give Detroit a call, I'm sure that they would love to hear from you.

Some will buy a CSX because they want the Shelby/SAAC endorsement... some will buy it just because they can, some will buy the ERA because of the reputation, some becuase of the way it looks or handles and on and on and on through the whole range of modern Cobra replicas.

The original question in the forum was about value. I've said it before... 'value' is only established when a buyer and a seller agree on a price, so who knows what the SA CSX will do, only time will tell.

By lowering the price of the car, relative to the Vegas car, I'm sure it may sway some buyers in their decision, for reasons of their own - not yours or mine.

Just my 2 cents...

- Dan

[casaleenie]

Originally posted by REAL 1


Dan: I mailed it last week, $212.16. If you don't get it by the end of the week call me and I will stop payment and send another.

Oh my God!!!, it's "the check is in the mail" scam....

And Evan, I'm beginning to agree with you that you are a "sweetheart".. You're totally unflappable and you stay the course.. for what it's worth I admire that... You can take some pretty good hits... and I do enjoy the bantering back and forth...

Can't imagine this forum without you....

[REAL 1]

Caseleenie: Thank you for your kind words. I'll take them whenever I can get them. I must admit, though I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop so I haven't unbuckled my chin strap just yet. . Experience has taught me otherwise around here.

Ok. I think Turk made a very good observation. Thats something you notice with him since it doesn't happen that often. But he is right in that ERA has over the years taken on an aura of their own. They in effect have become almost a legend in the replica industry themselves. They have in my opinion become the "Cadillac" of the Cobra replicas. Their production capability is very limited. They are always back logged. The demand for their cars are great. Yet they survive. Why? Quality product and great service. Great guys.

Despite the recent appearance of the SA CSX I truly believe many will stay with ERA because of ERA and the reputation of the car.

I think that there will still be enough of a demand for ERAs that ERA will always have enough orders to keep them busy and in business. I truly hope so. I have a particular fondness for ERA . Can't say enough good things about them.

I also think that there will, however, be quite a number of people who would've bought ERA's but who will now opt for the Shelby because they want a "Shelby Cobra" and all the intangibles and history of Shelby/SAI that go with it especially now that the rollers of the two companies are in the same ballpark with no significant difference in price..

In short any guy who has enough descretionary spending money to put $40,000 down on a car that doesn't even have an engine and transmission is not likely to consider a $2k to $5K swing in price a factor. IMHO.

A SPF at $37K for a roller is for all intents and purposes in the same boat IMHO. According to the ERA web site they can do a base Turnkey car for $47,000.00. Thats with engine and trans obviously. Back out the engine and trans (figuring an FE 390 and base trans, thats what? $10,000?). That puts the base ERA roller with paint at $37K. An ERA is = to SPF as far a rollers are concerned. In the same ballpark anyway.

Both ERA and SPF don't come with many items that are standard with the CSX such as pin drives ($2,800.00 extra on the ERA and I don't even think you can get them with SPF), aluminum panels for engine bay and trunk, outboard brakes (extra on ERA), roll bar (extra on ERA), fuel cell (extra on ERA), pusher fans (extra on both), remote oiler cooler (extra on ERA, not sure about SPF), roll bar (extra on ERA), leather (extra on ERA).

Point is simple. The SA CSX is being sold at a great price. I'm not a Shelby salesperson but I'm just pointing out the obvious. Anyone who buys an ERA or a SPF based on the above obviously just wants an ERA or SPF for whatever reason they may have. Whether they like the car better, whether they don't care about the "Shebly name", whether they like the quality of the product or the dealer or whatever. All legitmate reasons because they are their reasons.

In the end both companies will lose more customers to SAI now then they would have last year at this time. Why? Because many guys would in fact rather have a Shelby Cobra because of its distinction and place as a REAL Cobra of the second generation. Thats a legitimate reason too and in no way shape or form and insult to any other car or manufacturer. Think about it.

[Edley Rondinone]

I agree with you, Evan! IF the quality on the 39k Shelby as as good, or near as good, as the same (+ - ) priced offerings already out there, I imagine people WILL opt for the Shelby Cobra. Why wouldn't they? If I were to purchase a 39k Shelby Cobra, I would have to call it a "Shelby Cobra Replica!", because, REAL, to me and to 99% of the people who bandy the word "REAL" about, refer to the originals worth upwards of $300,000, and mine would not be one of those.

[Hal Copple]

'Both ERA and SPF don't come with many items that are standard with the CSX such as pin drives ($2,800.00 extra on the ERA and I don't even think you can get them with SPF), aluminum panels for engine bay and trunk, outboard brakes (extra on ERA), roll bar (extra on ERA), fuel cell (extra on ERA), pusher fans (extra on both), remote oiler cooler (extra on ERA, not sure about SPF), roll bar (extra on ERA), leather (extra on ERA).' Evan's quote.

Hal replies: actually, for years SPF's have come with Knock Off Pin Drive wheels, used to be Trigos, now a similar wheel by SPF. SPF's have polished stainless steel heatshields on the footwells in the engine compartment, and brushed aluminum engine compartment firewall. comes with the ducted oil cooler and lines, roll bar (several variations), sidepipes, headers to match the engine, heaters, defrosters, Wilwoods, full leather seats, interior vents from the front to air the footwells, Smiths's, ducted rear electric fans (some folks have added the pusher fans for the looks). Trunk is carpeted. Hood and trunk fully finished on interior of lids. Stainless steel baffeled 17 gal tank (cells are available), big aluminum radiators, etc

Anyway, just to clear up any ambiguiity about some of the SPF standard features. The SPF dealers can put much more on them , if one wishes to race, etc. There is not much to option on an SPF, unless one wants lots of chrome, or to race, basically add the motor, trans, battery, driveshaft, and fluids.

[REAL 1]

Edley: Of course you can refer to any Shelby you buy any way your wish. Of course most guys who want the Shelby as opposed to the others are buying it because they want a car that is factually and legally considered a REAL Cobra. Not original but of the second generation.

While I agree with you that many people are referring to the original series when they ask "is it real" I would like to point out this is undoubtedly because many people outside the Cobra community and hobby are not familar with the second generation or that SAI is even back in business. So, in fairness I answer the question "yes it is a REAL Cobra. Its a new Continuation series Cobra from SAI." In nearly every case people become fascinated and once people learn what it is i.e., a brand new Shelby Cobra made by Shelby to his exact '65 specs and considered by SAAC as a genuine Cobra they are amazed and impressed with the car. There reactions and words leave not doubt they consider it a REAL Cobra also.

I'm just pointing out what my experience has been with my car for over 2 1/2 years now. You can give it any weight you wish but I would suggest to you that I have been the one standing next to the car listening to what people say and seeing their reactions not you. You can take it for what is worth.

When we, familar with the Cobra and the hobby refer to REAL Cobras there is no doubt that we in most cases are referring to the original series as a way of distinguishing in a short hand manner what we are talking about.

Technically and more properly it would be more accurate to refer to the original Cobras as "originals" and the new series as "continuation series Cobras". But many who refuse to acknowledge the Continuation series as a REAL Cobra too would feel that would this would give away too much to the owners of the Continuation series and Shelby. Heaven forbid they would want to acknowledge in any way that the Continuation Series is a REAL Cobra in any way. It makes them feel better perhaps because they have some emotional feeling despite the facts that only "the ones made in the 60's are REAL" or perhaps it makes them feel better about what they own to refer to the originals as REAL and the Continuation series as "replicas". I'm sure there are also some that take this position because they feel better knocking what someone else has because they don't have it. This is quite apparent in some (not all).

Most owners of Continuation Series Cobra will probably tell you their Cobra is a replica of the original series. It is. But most will also tell you they consider their Cobra a REAL Cobra but not original.

Hal: If you notice most of the extra expense noted applied to the ERA's. I honestly didn't realize the SPF came with true pin drives. Cool. The aluminum panels for the CSX is not merely the firewall. Its the panels for the entire engine bay and trunk as I understand. You also reminded me that the headers and side pipes are also extra I believe for the ERA.

Point is the SA CSX come very nicely equipped. Its a great price for a Shelby Cobra.

[Russ Dickey]

Originally posted by REAL 1

Technically and more properly it would be more accurate to refer to the original Cobras as "originals" and the new series as "continuation series Cobras". But many who refuse to acknowledge the Continuation series as a REAL Cobra too would feel that would this would give away too much to the owners of the Continuation series and Shelby. Heaven forbid they would want to acknowledge in any way that the Continuation Series is a REAL Cobra in any way. It makes them feel better perhaps because they have some emotional feeling despite the facts that only "the ones made in the 60's are REAL" or perhaps it makes them feel better about what they own to refer to the originals as REAL and the Continuation series as "replicas". This is quite apparent in many (not all).
[/b]

Evan:
Let me start by prefacing (once again), I am a huge fan of CS and would never bash him or SAI in any way. In addition, had I held off about two months on my Unique purchase, I probably would have bought one of these new rollers from Shelby. But I didn't and I couldn't be happier with my FIA 289.

That being said, couldn't your exact same logic here be used to say that some CSX owner's prefer to refer to their cars as "continuations" vs. replicas to make them feel better about what they bought? My personal opionion is that while CS can still call his cars Cobras, and rightfully so, they are still replicas of the real Cobras that he made in the 60's. Do I hold them in higher regard because they are made by CS? Yes, I do (although many on this forum probably disagree with that). I consider them "Official Replicas" you might say.

Does that make sense? In closing, I applaud your efforts to constantly defend the CSX's and SAI, but I just think that you really don't have to do so. Everybody is always going to throw stones and try to bash the guy on top. You shouldn't take it so personally.

Russ

[Quentin Z]

Real 1,
Your's and the other's posts here bring up some good points about the available "rollers" out there. I know this may be a little off-topic, but I wonder if someone has (or could) put together a spreadsheet showing some of the roller company's standard and optional features with their values. Seems like this could save someone like me (who is shopping) a lot of time. Having seen the SPF's I know they come standard with things like, heater, soft top, knock-offs, etc. that some of the others do not. However, it would be nice to have a quick reference sheet on the roller's that SAI, SPF, Backdraft, ERA, Venom, ect. offer for quick reference.

AQZ

[REAL 1]

Russ: Thanks. While your'e right that CSX owners could technically efer to their cars as "replicas" they are more then "replicas". They also have the distinction to being considered as REAL Cobras factually and legally. This is part of what the Shelby is. It can't be separted from this fact.

Why would you think any owner of a CSX would be refering to his car as a REAL Cobra merely to make himself "feel better" rather then just referring to it as what it is factually and legally. Most Shelby owners are proud of the fact they own a Contiuation Series Cobra which is accepted factually and legally as a genuine Cobra. In many cases its why they bought a Shelby. To merely refer to ithe CSX as a "replica" or an "offical replica" would clearly strip the car of the intangible value of being a Continuation series Cobra considered legally and factually as a genuine Cobra. Would it make the owners of other manuafacturers replicas feel better if CSX owners started calling their Cobras replicas? If so why would it make them feel better? Or in the converse why does it upset those same guys when I refer or other CSX owners refer to their Cobras as REAL Cobras.

Russ, in closing I also appauld your comments. You are clearly not amoung the group of guys that have an axe to grind that influences their comments on the CSX and Shelby. You are also right I should give it a rest.



AQZ: I agree an apples to apples spread sheet would be very helpful and enlightening. I suggest such a thing a while back. Maybe someone will help out.

[casaleenie]

Evan,

For my part, only one shoe.....

[Russ Dickey]

Thanks Evan. I'll take one more shot at my logic, and then that's it. For all you Dale Earnhardt fans out there, this may be morbid, so I apologize in advance. I was never a Dale Earnhardt fan.

Anyway, let's say that one of these rabid Nascar fans who happens to be lucky enough to own one of Dale Earnhardt's hemets or uniforms, scrapes off a bit of hair or a sweat stain, takes it down to the local DNA shop, and clones Dale Earnhardt. After years of nuturing, the clone emerges from the DNA shop, made from the same stuff as Dale, looking like Dale, sounding like Dale, and walking like Dale, but you and I know, it ain' no Dale. He would be held in higher regard than a professional look-alike, but still wouldn't be the real Dale Earnhardt. That's kinda how I think of the CSX's. Apples to oranges you say? Maybe, but that's the kind of twisted logic you get from a guy who's bored at work.

As you have said in many a previous thread, it really comes down to semantics. Yes, legally and factually, you own a real Cobra. But because the general public associates "real" with "original", you're always going to run into this type of flak. And let's face it, a lot of guys around here say that "the Shelby name ain't worth all that extra cash". But if price was no issue, I bet most of them would have opted for the CSX, too. And now that price isn't an issue, I predict that Shelby sales will skyrocket.

I think a lot of the bashing you endure stems from guys who probably have to justify every purchase they make: house, clothes, whatever. If everybody would just be happy with what they have, and realize that regardless of the manufacturer, we are all getting to realize a dream that millions of others can't, you probably wouldn't have to be the lone muskateer so much.

Peace out.

Russ

[Russ Dickey]

Oops. Wrong button.

[Woodz428]

I think we have the record for the number of "legally and factually" used in a paragraph, someone call Guiness. REALLY.

[BlueRooster]

What do you guys think will happen after CS passes. Do the prices of the existing CAV cars go up? How about the cars that are built after? Are the cars with a signed trunk or dash worth more? I mean he didnt race these cars, or build these cars like he did the originals, so I'm wondering if the "mystique" will still be there. I hope so 'cause the CAV looks like a nice car.