Another NEW CSX 427

[BROOKLANDSSPEED]

london keep in ... its a bit like "Bandit 1 suggested in the FAQ forum , Britney or Christina ?....kirkham/shelby or Ac /shelby just a matter of choice , i liked Christina in those red chaps ...but i also liked Britney in the Pan Am uniform ... mmmmmmmmmmm....mm

[SCOBRAC]

Says he wished it would have been ready for Barrett Jackson. The Kirkham Tsunami roller got $54k.... Just saying.

[Trevor Legate]

Originally posted by Russ Dickey


Yeah, I know. I was just having some fun with you Englishmen. You guys are so sensitive and defensive about the whole AC/Shelby Cobra thing.

The fact remains, Carroll Shelby was the guy that inked the deal and made it all happen. AC wasn't pursuing Ford with any thoughts of building a hybrid sports car. They would have been content to slip into oblivion making wheelchairs.

Hi Russ

Just picked up on your comment. Had to laugh. And cry. When I started researching my first Cobra book ( I was forced into doing it) I found that the English side of the Cobra story could hardly care less whether Shelby, Ford or Frank Sinatra had any involvement with the car - but it was quite a different story from the American viewpoint as I soon discovered (and was warned about by people withn SAAC). The anti-AC faction were especially all-powerful on the West Coast where they were only too willing to paint the UK connection out of the story and raise CS to a deity. I found I had walked into a strange, bizarre world that was both funny and almost scary. You hear about such things but have to experience it to believe it.
I confess that I am one of those who would like the story to be told with a degree of accuracy since the American view of AC was that it made wheelchairs. As I have said before, they were an engineering company who made cars as they had accidentally inherited that part of the business when they purchased the Thames Ditton site in the 30s. They were a large engineering business that also made railway carriages, trailers, golf carts etc etc and made a good living and healthy profits. They were in the process of looking for a V8 but Shelby had first call on the new lightweight Ford engine. Would AC have come across that when it reached production? Very likely. Would they have made a car as good as the Cobra became. I doubt it!! But they would have built something like it. In my opinion, based on conversations with Derek Hurlock.

[nikbj68]

Originally posted by Trevor Legate


They were in the process of looking for a V8 but Shelby had first call on the new lightweight Ford engine. Would AC have come across that when it reached production? Very likely. Would they have made a car as good as the Cobra became. I doubt it!! But they would have built something like it. In my opinion, based on conversations with Derek Hurlock.

Wasn`t there some suggestion that AC looked at the Buick V8 (long before Rover got hold of it...) but the volumes involved made it uneconomical?
And... let`s face it, AC had been making cars for nigh on 60 years by the time the Bristol engine supply was a problem, so if the Ace had disappeared without an engine, AC would have made another car of some sort, as they eventually did with the ME3000, and continued with government work, subcontract engineering, or whatever..... they wouldn`t have just curled up & died because a Texan with a plan didn`t show up!

[Adrian472]

Id just like to add something to this slightly off topic but kinda related in a way.Recently Land Rover cars stopped production of the Rover/Buick engine after about 35 years of production in various saloon and 4x4 vehicles.That engine was the core of the British sports car industry involving Morgan TVR Marcos to name a few, they were all left without suitable power units for there cars, but all of which have sourced new engines from Ford BMW and Chevy, and of course TVR have been building there on S6 and V8 engines for some time.
Im sure this is a similar story to what AC cars faced when Bristol pulled the plug and left them with a empty space between the chassis rails. It would of been only a matter of time before they got hold of the new small block ford engine.And if they would of i think the car would not be the car it is today but something more to what the Healy 3000 should of been! Shebly walked through the door just at the right time.
Adrian

[Trevor Legate]

AC and Ken Rudd had considered the Buick and Corvette V8 if they could be obtained, tho they had set their heart on a supply of V8s from Jaguar/Daimler as used in the Dart but Jag were not exactly helpful. Shelby just walked through the door at the right time, both in Detroit and Thames Ditton and was a very lucky and persuasive little rascal. He pulled off a once-in-a-lifetime deal and discovered the ancient and noble art of making Money....

I agree that the Ace would have continued (the Cobra was originally called the Ace MkIII in the AC drawing office) and been a good, although expensive alternative to the big Healey.

Mr.Shelby knows the amount of work AC did and always pays them credit - when he is in this country, as he did at the Haynes Cobra day - but then plays the Good Ol' American boy routine when at home. Witness his many past speeches and habit of crossing out the AC logo on the Cobra handbook etc etc. Can't really blame him for that since its all part of his business and muddying the past all helps promote the Cobra myth in his home country. (A lot of his past anti-AC rants were directed more against Brian Angliss when their deal fell through). Still, thats all in the past, innit...???

[london]

Originally posted by Trevor Legate

Mr.Shelby knows the amount of work AC did and always pays them credit - when he is in this country, as he did at the Haynes Cobra day - but then plays the Good Ol' American boy routine when at home. Witness his many past speeches and habit of crossing out the AC logo on the Cobra handbook etc etc. Can't really blame him for that since its all part of his business and muddying the past all helps promote the Cobra myth in his home country. (A lot of his past anti-AC rants were directed more against Brian Angliss when their deal fell through). Still, thats all in the past, innit...??? [/b]

Trevor

Good to see the AC side of the story being explained by someone who has done their research. But I can't help wondering if Angliss was trying to write Shelby out of the script in 1992 when they had their famous scrap?

[Trevor Legate]

I would like to see anyone try to write Shelby out of anything!! More likely the reverse was the case. If you read the letter reproduced in my 'Real Thing' book, it states the AC case very clearly, in plain English, that anyone can understand - I would have thought!! (Basically AC had every right to build Cobras as they always had been 50% of the project and that nobody had a right to suddenly 'discover' a forgotten hoard of 1960's chassis that just happened to be lying around in an old shed. Or words to that effect)

[london]

'Real Thing' certainly states the AC and Shelby cases very clearly. It puzzles me therefore why AC are talking about using 1962 titles and unused serial numbers for the Ace Classic. Presumably they've run this past their lawyers.

[nikbj68]

london...That`s one helluva presumption...!
Let`s 'presume' that Ford are making their Escorts in December. Chassis no 32,875 is made on Dec. 31st,03 and 32,876 is made on Jan. 1st, 04. does that make 32,876 an `03 car, or just an `03 model. by Jan.1st, 05 they`re up to 44,108... but still sequential. Is that also an `03 made car or just the 3rd year that the `03 model had been made?
It`s a bunch of cr4p ,and I`m sure they can`t get away with it. (IMVeryHO!!!!)

[Trevor Legate]

london

Personally, I have no idea. It seems that you can get anything registered as anything you want, provided you know how to play the system. Which is why certain vehicles are built as one thing, leave the country and return as something else, complete with a set of documents to prove it. Plus the original documents if you want to revert to what it used to be. Did somebody mention "427 Cobra"? No, let's not go there......

However, we shall see in due course, but it all sounds a bit iffy to me. But first - build your Ace.

[REAL 1]

You know I like you guys across the pond, however, truth be told AC would have been nothing more than a footnote with an * in most automotive history books but for CS.

It was CS and the boys at SAI (Remington, Brock and scores of others..) that made the car into an automotive icon that still transcends generations.
Its the car's connection with CS and SAI that forever gives the Cobra its value and puts the snake into the snake. It was even CS who named it the "Cobra".

Do COB, COX cars bring the same value car for car as a CSX car? I don't think so. But correct me if I'm wrong.

Brooklands, don't be so sensative. AC is clearly an important part of the Cobra legacy and story. But lets face it, without CS and SAI there would be no Cobra and it certainly wouldn't have attained its promient place in automotive history.

I don't think the Ace or Aceca is an automotive icon, at least not the last time I looked.

BTW my brake pedal and clutch pedal have the "SAI" (same as my Avatar) logo not the "AC" logo.

[Trevor Legate]

No argument that the Cobra put AC on the world map in a much bigger way, but that also overlooks the great success of the Ace in SCCA racing in the 1950s and the success of the 16/80 (and original Ace) models in european sporting events in the 1930s, winning the Monte Carlo Rally, Alpine Rally etc etc, all quite important events over here, old chap, but only really covered by Road & Track in the new world. AC never promoted itself properly and was happy to be a purveyor of gentlemans automobiles. But a bit more than just a 'footnote' in my (and maybe only my) opinion.

No doubt that the Shelby boys really kicked the Cobra into shape in ultra-quick time - they had to!! Remington was an occassional visitor at AC but the majority of the engineering changes were made to his order by AC under the direction of Alan Turner (who, although he will always deny it in true-Brit fashion - is a very clever bloke). And everyone knows that CS wanted to call it Cobra - for reasons best known to him. (The story varies). So thats an Anglo-American sports car then.

I think I am right in saying that COB and COX cars have recently sold for prices in the region of £150,000 to £190,000 ($276,000 to $350,000). Maybe more - not all prices are published! I think that compares pretty favorably with the few prices I have seen in Snake Bite bulletins. Thats for 289 cars - the 7-litres are more! Even a very recent AC 427 MkIII should fetch in the region of £185,000, so genuine '60s cars will be much higher.

[Jamo]

Trev

I would guess it's not much different than the Rover Lexus built.

[nikbj68]

Originally posted by REAL 1
...BTW my brake pedal and clutch pedal have the "SAI" (same as my Avatar) logo not the "AC" logo.

There`s a good reason for that, Real, and that is simply that your 'real' Shelby is a replica of an original, AC built, 427 Cobra, so where your signature says "...one of the most accurately detailed 4000 to original specification since the demise of CSX 4027...." There`s one detail you missed!

[CSX 4027]

Originally posted by nikbj68


There`s a good reason for that, Real, and that is simply that your 'real' Shelby is a replica of an original, AC built, 427 Cobra, so where your signature says "...one of the most accurately detailed 4000 to original specification since the demise of CSX 4027...." There`s one detail you missed!

I had da right pedals "AC"

[Jamo]

Really soft seat leather too as I recall.

[BROOKLANDSSPEED]

The Ace ...........refined .........nimble ..........elegant , a joy to drive , the cobra evolved from this icon,no matter how you slice the cake geezers the anglo american combination originated from the ACE , and the pioneers who raced successfully in the 50s and 60s in europe and the US , raised the profile of AC ......... The injection of hp .....design ...race proving success of the cobra was American , the rolling chassis/bodys were beefed up and built at thames ditton ......the ACE being instrumental in the evolution of the cobra ............the ACE is a classic in the UK and always will be ....the book by TONY BANCROFT , AND JOHN MCLELLAN ISBN09534680 03 ace bristol racing tells the story ........remember that CS was seeing thease intrepid drivers world wide , in the 50s and 60s ........Ken Rudd would have developed the ACE further but he was elbowed by AC ...... the rest is history ...

[REAL 1]

Well, it all depends on how you look at it.

Ace was a neat little sports car. Certainly a classic. I give you all its charms.

Ask 10 average Joes on the street what an AC Ace is. Doubt the majority will know.

Ask 10 average Joes on the street what a Shelby Cobra is. Good chance 10 out of 10 will know.

Thats the difference. One is a neat little classic car the other an automotive icon. Shelby put the icon into what would have been today nothing more than what it is....a nice little classic roadster.

As to my pedals. Yup, I knew the originals had AC pedals. And yes I know my car is a replica of the orignal Cobra. No secret there. However, because its still a genuine Cobra from current generaton SAI in which CS the orignal founder and creator of the Cobra is involved I wanted the SAI pedals because its not an original and is a new generation Cobra which is more a product of SAI today. It doesn't have the AC center cap for the steering wheel either. It has the Cobra center cap. The insigna's on my car all indicate "Shelby" which is what it is. I see Carroll Shelby and SAI as instrumental in the existence of the Shelby Cobra and the AC Ace as the right platform in the right place at the right time by fortuitous circumstance. As I see it, Shelby turned something relatively ordinary into something extrodinary. Thats how I see it. You can see it differently. That doesn't mean AC isn't an important part of the orignal story. Without CS there is no Cobra and no automotive icon. Whether CS could have done it with a different platform no one will ever know.

The AC of today is far removed of the AC of 1965 just as SAI of today is far removed from the SAI of 1965. All things change with time. Whether you see that as bad or good is personal to each of us.

In the end it comes down to this. Carroll Shelby created the Cobra. AC did not. Period.

[427sharpe]

Trevor--
As it has become a hobby over here for us to visit the various Shelby places (Venice and the airport plant sites) I wonder what (who??) is at the AC site at Thames Ditton?? Also, is Alan Turner still with us? I would really like to see him attend one of the SAAC nationals, just for the information I am sure he could provide about AC's side of the PARTNERSHIP. We pay for some of the guests to come over, you know.... . Be interesting to hear CS's
take on it with Turner on the stage..