Weber Look A Like Fuel Injection!

[jwd]

Fuel injection is far superior to any carb. for HP and MPG. It is easily tuned for perfect A/F ratios under all loads, that can't be done with a carb. There is a reason that although F.I. is more expensive, carbs. haven't been used in new cars for over 20 years.

[TButtrick]

Originally Posted by jwd

Fuel injection is far superior to any carb. for HP and MPG. It is easily tuned for perfect A/F ratios under all loads, that can't be done with a carb. There is a reason that although F.I. is more expensive, carbs. haven't been used in new cars for over 20 years.

That's complete Bull Sh!t. There are many offers up and I'll put up my own. Send me a set to "bolt up" and I'll "easily tune" per the claims and I'll be their biggest proponent. Ford crate 392W. No mods.

[jwd]

Originally Posted by TButtrick

That's complete Bull Sh!t.

What part are you calling B.S. on? I'm not saying this particular vendor's claims are true. I'm only saying that F.I. is far superior to any carb. Do you remember the 70's? With pollutions standards enacted, HP dropped to less than 200, performance cars were gone and gas mileage sucked. F.I. was invented and guess what? We now can go to the dealer and buy a car that has 400-500 HP, gets 25+MPG and now meets even stricter emission standards. Why you ask? BECAUSE OF FUEL INJECTION.

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by jwd

What part are you calling B.S. on? I'm not saying this particular vendor's claims are true. I'm only saying that F.I. is far superior to any carb. Do you remember the 70's? With pollutions standards enacted, HP dropped to less than 200, performance cars were gone and gas mileage sucked. F.I. was invented and guess what? We now can go to the dealer and buy a car that has 400-500 HP, gets 25+MPG and now meets even stricter emission standards. Why you ask? BECAUSE OF FUEL INJECTION.

JWD-you are an example of how dangerous a little knowledge can be.According to you multi valve heads,roller cams,scienced out heads,10 cylinders,crank trigger ignitions had nothing to do with the power increase-the magical FI did it all by it's lonesome.

Dean,i just looked at the site again.From what i can tell,YOU supply the manifold.There's more money.Another thing that makes me chuckle:The self tuning computer.Un-huh,like i'm going to spend $6,000 and not be able to tune the system?

And for you FE guys looking at this,you'd need the 10 degree Webber manifold for these TBs(or Webbers) to clear your hood.And then enjoy the fun trying to get filters to clear.

[RedBarchetta]

Originally Posted by jwd

There is a reason that...F.I. is more expensive...

I believe that is part of the fundamental issue being discussed/brought up. With 20 years of EFI technology behind us, it doesn't make sense why these systems continue to be out of touch for most enthusiasts? I understand supply and demand curves, so I don't need schooling on limited production = higher fixed costs per unit = more $$$ per unit sold to make a profit.

It's just that this particular manufacturer is making some pretty bold claims. And, I might add, at 10X the price that a good, prepped carb would cost. I won't fully pic on them for price...seems like ALL of the stack EFI set-ups get a healthy premium for the cool factor.

They need a guinea pig in So Cal to prove them right? Bring it on! I have over 1,700 posts here and I'm not afraid to write-up full reports on other mods that I have performed in the past (good, bad or indifferent). Check my history to verify. I'd give them an honest test in real world conditions on a motor that is around 470-480HP at the flywheel. That covers 90% of the known Cobra universe (the other 10% being for the real HP junkies). Testimonials sell systems, not print advertising.

-Dean

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by jwd

Fuel injection is far superior to any carb. for HP and MPG. It is easily tuned for perfect A/F ratios under all loads, that can't be done with a carb. There is a reason that although F.I. is more expensive, carbs. haven't been used in new cars for over 20 years.

Catagorically false.There are even dyno pulls that show a DROP in HP going to FI.
Although,there will be a increase in fuel milage,(but no-where near the 300% claims)there will be NO HP increase over a PROPERLY sized & set-up carb.

And yes,there is a reason there are no more carbs.It's called EMMISSIONS.

[GT390FE]

Perhaps they will be at Sema next month and someone can report back more. Looks nice but their claims are hard to believe. I'd have to see the system installed and talk to a satisfied owner before dropping $6K. I hope it lives up to the claims.... time will tell.

[razerwire]

I have twm injection tuned by Kroyer engines Las Vegas. They have lots of small and big blocks running just fine. I like because no matter what angle or how hard turn there is no stumble. I run fuel injection on my sand car, I would hate to have engine quit going up 800' sand dune or hanging on side of big bowl. Video at buckshot racing.

[csx4910]

Do you have any pics of your car to share?

[olddog]

I don't have a dog in this fight, however after reading this thread, one thing became obvious. Price wise people kept comparing this system to a single carb. How lopsided of a comparison? There are several EFI systems out their designed to look like a single carb at 1/2 to 2/3 the price. On a system designed to look like a weber set up, the price should be compared to the cost of a complete weber set up.

At least make the right comparisons!

[BigGuy]

Anybody road tested their Dynatech Injection set-up yet?

.

[snakebitekit]

Different strokes for different folks. These "arguements" are for show and for discussion. When ever 2 guys get together there will always be discussions of who's is faster, better looking, bigger etc: it's car talk. I for one always enjoy a good debate, even political, you share ideas, opinions and hopefully both will walk away with more knowledge than before entering the fray. I for one always learn something or at the minimum the urge to do more research. Then I do or beleive what I want.


One comment, in one of the post a person said all the emissions standards came out and then FI was born. FI has been around since the 50's and maybe earlier, the computer is what made FI work.

[snakebitekit]

Different strokes for different folks. These "arguements" are for show and for discussion. When ever 2 guys get together there will always be discussions of who's is faster, better looking, bigger etc: it's car talk. I for one always enjoy a good debate, even political, you share ideas, opinions and hopefully both will walk away with more knowledge than before entering the fray. I for one always learn something or at the minimum the urge to do more research. Then do or beleive what I want.

The Feb. 2009 Kit Car Builder magazine has an interesting article where the Dynatek FI is compared to carburation on the same motor; mileage increased from 12.66 to 19.02 and there was a 40hp gain throughout the rev range on the FI system. Good article both sides should review it.

One comment, in one of the post a person said all the emissions standards came out and then FI was born. FI has been around since the 50's and maybe earlier, the computer is what made FI work.

[priobe]

I have a few question regarding the dynatek system vs true Weber carbs. There is no doubt about haveing the Weber carbs properly tuned is a true accomplishment. However, properly tuned can mean many things to alot of people. I have had my Weber carbs for sometime know and do wish sometimes that I have purchased the efi setup. But when you sart caomparing the dollar amount between the dynatek and Weber carb there is a huge difference.

Weber carbs = $2500
dynatek = $6000

We are here arguing if the efi will give you more HP compared to the carb setup and can not come to an agreement nor will dynatek comment if you will gain more power from there system.

If I were to use the dynatek system I would definitly through out the computer and use the Halteck system. This is just my opinion. However, I dont think you have that option.

The only down side I see to the Weber carbs besides the cost to properly tune them ( which I have managed to help someone tune their weber setup for approx. $ 100) is the fuel drip that happens after shutdown.

The Weber carbs are period correct and alot of fun to play with.

But bottom line, the dynatek system is for different people than the Weber carbs.

But the HP out come from the dynateck will definitly not justify the cost difference.

[Great Asp]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

Anybody road tested their Dynatech Injection set-up yet?

.

100 miles on mine.

I'm not really ready to give my complete opinion yet. We had problems getting the system tuned, and without 500 miles on the street I am not ready to really drive the car to see how it will perform.

Starts great, idles great, WOT on the dyno was great. But right now I feel that the choice of ECUs would be a factor (you can order the system with the FAST ECU, which i did not know when I ordered my system).

You can get more info on my build thread

Great Asp's Superformance - FE Build

Great Asp

[razerwire]

csx4910 pic. at www.buckshotracing.com scroll down to white and red x-5 model, then click for pic, 2nd col, 9th pic down, blue with green accents. Most sand cars run fuel injection now, sand ruff ,steep, watch 200 foot jumps and 90 m.p.h. wheelie.

[Garage10]

priobe
Do you use your car on the street ? How do you find your webbers in that application ? I read that webbers are too finicky for street use and that is why people go to systems like dynatek. But, I too think all these efi systems need to get in line with their pricing. It is waaaaaay too high compared to a carb/carbs/webbers.

[priobe]

garage10,

I agree with you on the pricing. Way toooooo expensive. You can hide the injectors, and fuel delivery but it still would not be Webers!

I use my Webers on the street and only on the street. My car has not yet seen the track.

Now from what I can tell it seems that the fuel drip happens with any carb setup. There are ways to slow it down but a definite cure is still in progress.

SO the down side to the Webers is that it will drip fuel in down the throat. This may not always be the case for every setup. I believe that it is happening to some people and they dont even know it. The pass it off as normal charaterisics of the Webers.

With the Dynatek system you will not have this problem. But you will pay more money as mentioned.

I have been giving it some thought to add injector boses to the manifold and adding a TPS sensor to turn the webers to EFI.

I have prefer the Haltech unit because it is realtime data management. Many system out there require you to turn off the engine, program, the start.

I am not sure how the Dynateck operates but if it is a self tuning unit, it would make a verty user friendly system. However, it may limit what you are capable of doing.

The Halteck system will provide SFI, batch and multipoint injection all built in to the unit. It will also control timing and accessories.

I figure by creating my own injection system it will cost me close to $2000 w/ a igition system. Remember I have the Webers and sensor already.

My point is these cars for me is a hobby and to have fun. But it does not justify $6000 to spend on a carb system I already have that will give me only 1 added feature that I will figure out a cure (dripping of fuel).

By the way, I just love when I pop my hood and people see I have the original Webers and I receive a comment like "that system is the hardest to tune and you will never get it right" I then start her up and ask it seems like it is properly tuned to me (with them agreeing).

[rokndad]

Originally Posted by Garage10

priobe
Do you use your car on the street ? How do you find your webbers in that application ? I read that webbers are too finicky for street use and that is why people go to systems like dynatek. But, I too think all these efi systems need to get in line with their pricing. It is waaaaaay too high compared to a carb/carbs/webbers.

As another user, my car has a pretty lumpy cam in it, and loped fairly well at idle with the 4bbl. Running previously at around 30 mph in 3rd gear (toploader 3:31 rear) it would lurch and jump around in town since it was between 1500 and 2200 rpm and didn't want to calmly run there. It ran really smoothly around 2800-3500 on the freeway, and my wife even fell asleep routinely on runs of 30 miles or more. You should see the people in adjacent cars chuckling at how someone could be asleep in that beast with all that noise. No earplugs either. I don't get it. She says it feels like a massage chair. Happy for her.

With the Webers, much easier to start either hot or cold, and runs really smoothly around town. No lurching or jumping around. A totally different sound and experience and so far, very reliable. I believe I have a more responsive car with the Webers and the enjoyment from others looking at it is priceless. This is what I have always thought a performance car should drive and sound like. I am very happy I made the challenging switch, and I know I am not done with the tuning and tweaking but I am going to get used to it as is for now. It was the right thing for me.

[D-CEL]

In theory, a carb or an EFI system that have equal flow and are properly tuned will make the same power. Flow is flow at WOT (wide open throttle). What we are really talking about is low and mid range power and drive-ability.
The main advantages of an EFI system over a carb, comes from its ability to precisely control the mixture. The result is better drive-ability, enhanced fuel economy and usually a flatter, wider torque curve under the WOT threshold.
But with these "PROS" come with some big "CONS" (no pun intended to the EFI mfgs) primarily system complexity and much higher costs. On top of that, you have to re-learn how to tune. The good part is that tuning becomes more scientific in practice, taking away some of the Juju associated with adjusting a carb.
Conversely, carbs are cheap(er) and simple(er) and for the most part can be made to produce sufficient power and acceptable drive-ability. While cabs work, to me they are a “compromise” system. I run them, but I don’t like them!! LOL

We all search for BIG HP in our mostly STREET DRIVEN toys.
But we must all remember that carbs need Vacuum to function. The wilder the engine combination becomes, the less happy most will be with the street manners of a carburetor.
EFI doesn’t need or care about vacuum and because the fuel is forced into the engine and the high level of control, it can be used to tame an otherwise….grumpy motor, another advantage.

While it is interesting to see head to head comparisons of the power, I think the true measure is how they start and drive on a cold morning in the mountains. How crisply it accelerates after idling for half an hour on the freeway when it’s 110 Deg. How controllable is the power delivery when you’re rolling into the throttle while exiting a hard right hand turn.

All things I don’t like about my very expensive, well tuned, super trick carb.

I’m putting EFI on my new motor, because it has flow potential that no carb can match thereby making the most possible HP and torque and with the right ECM (BIG STUFF or ACCEL DFI) will offer the best possible drive-ability. No compromises.
To me that is worth the additional cost and extra effort.

As I have said many times, there is no right way or wrong way, just opinion.


Jason