Weber Look A Like Fuel Injection!

[rokndad]

Originally Posted by D-CEL

I’m putting EFI on my new motor, because it has flow potential that no carb can match thereby making the most possible HP and torque and with the right ECM (BIG STUFF or ACCEL DFI) will offer the best possible drive-ability. No compromises.
To me that is worth the additional cost and extra effort.

As I have said many times, there is no right way or wrong way, just opinion.


Jason

Wowzers!! Jason, what is that system? Very nice. We all want to hear how it runs when you get it going.

[D-CEL]

Rokndad,

That is the Kinsler Super Cobra Jet EFI manifold. It is the first SCJ specific “Stack” injection manifold. They did their homework when they designed it. it has a bunch of great features and options.

http://www.kinsler.com/NewProducts/PDF/SCJweb.pdf

LOL, yea it should be a hell of a thing….


Jason

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by D-CEL

In theory, a carb or an EFI system that have equal flow and are properly tuned will make the same power. Flow is flow at WOT (wide open throttle). What we are really talking about is low and mid range power and drive-ability.
The main advantages of an EFI system over a carb, comes from its ability to precisely control the mixture. The result is better drive-ability, enhanced fuel economy and usually a flatter, wider torque curve under the WOT threshold.
But with these "PROS" come with some big "CONS" (no pun intended to the EFI mfgs) primarily system complexity and much higher costs. On top of that, you have to re-learn how to tune. The good part is that tuning becomes more scientific in practice, taking away some of the Juju associated with adjusting a carb.
Conversely, carbs are cheap(er) and simple(er) and for the most part can be made to produce sufficient power and acceptable drive-ability. While cabs work, to me they are a “compromise” system. I run them, but I don’t like them!! LOL

We all search for BIG HP in our mostly STREET DRIVEN toys.
But we must all remember that carbs need Vacuum to function. The wilder the engine combination becomes, the less happy most will be with the street manners of a carburetor.
EFI doesn’t need or care about vacuum and because the fuel is forced into the engine and the high level of control, it can be used to tame an otherwise….grumpy motor, another advantage.

While it is interesting to see head to head comparisons of the power, I think the true measure is how they start and drive on a cold morning in the mountains. How crisply it accelerates after idling for half an hour on the freeway when it’s 110 Deg. How controllable is the power delivery when you’re rolling into the throttle while exiting a hard right hand turn.

All things I don’t like about my very expensive, well tuned, super trick carb.

I’m putting EFI on my new motor, because it has flow potential that no carb can match thereby making the most possible HP and torque and with the right ECM (BIG STUFF or ACCEL DFI) will offer the best possible drive-ability. No compromises.
To me that is worth the additional cost and extra effort.

As I have said many times, there is no right way or wrong way, just opinion.


Jason

Well that's kind of true, from what I have learned. I remember reading an article in Hot Boat years ago, testing Merc's then relatively new 454 packages, One a 454 HO and the other, a 454 EFI. Reportedly, both had the same short block and heads, the differnece being only the induction unit, a holley carb on a dual plane intake, and the other a tuned port, 8 runner FI intake. The testing revealed the Carbed motor out ran, made more power than the EFI version of the same engine, by like 2-3 mph in the same boat, by radar gun. What was explained is that a carburetor can be taylored to optimize fuel droplet size, whreas the EFI system sprays a mist like fuel, which vaporizes more easily, taking the place (space) of would have been additional air (O2) with the carbed engine, enabling the carbed engine to make slightly more power. Interesting.

[RodKnock]

A decision that I'll be making at some point in the future. Rokndad here on CC recently chose Webers over Dynatek. He may visit later and explain his decision, but he loves his Webers and they're about half the final cost of the Dynatek system installed.

[priobe]

Rodknock,

I have been in contact with Rokndad. We had a discussion on the Webers and yes it seems as if he is very happy with the setup. I have no complaint either, however I see an alternative way to introduce the EFI with multi-throttlebodies less than the Dynatek system with more fuctionality.

However, I do not have the funds to prove this nor do I want to spend the money. Perhaps if I get bored I will try it.

[rokndad]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

A decision that I'll be making at some point in the future. Rokndad here on CC recently chose Webers over Dynatek. He may visit later and explain his decision, but he loves his Webers and they're about half the final cost of the Dynatek system installed.

OK,OK, I've been lurking and just sent an email to Phil this morning on the dripping subject. I was sooooo close to pulling the trigger on the Dynatek system as Rodney well knows, but the extra wiring and O2 sensors and extra boxes and controllers got to me at the end. I wanted the clean race-ready look of the original carbs without any extra things on the engine. I was, at the same time, shirking away from the dilemmas I was reading about tuning the Webers and all the expense of trial and error with the jet stacks and e-tubes, the mumbo-jumbo about chokes and jets and holders, transition circuits and the dripping and the popping and all the other "ills" that made their way into the CC annals.

However, reading this site almost every day, and doing lots of research on FE's with Webers, I decided I was up for a little tuning challenge. Priobe, eljaro and ENTDOC's input gave me the confidence to finally get over it and go with the Webers. I found a worldwide distributor 45 miles from my home, and they have the parts and the tech advice available so I went with the exact same setup as Stefano (eljaro) bought and it's pretty much period correct (although new parts/carbs from Spain not Italy) without using computers. I, indeed, spent about $400 in new chokes (40mm), two sets of e-tubes and two each sets of idle and main jets to get where I am. Probably not done with changing these in the long run, but I'll run with these for now.

I have had my challenges with the new carbs, and even the dripping that Phil is experiencing has abated. Totally stopped? No. But my DaVinci 950 4bbl also had a slight drip onto the throttle plates after hot shutdown. I can live with the tiny bit that is making some, but not all, of the throttle plates wet 8-10 minutes after shutdown. The spring gas formula seems to have helped over the winter gas.

My set up is still rich and smells rich in the idle circuit, but the popping has totally gone away. No stumbles and runs like a totally different car. The smell improves a bit as the car totally heats up. As Rick Lake said, the torque improvements are like nothing you can describe but you feel it in the seat of the pants when you hit the throttle. A real screamer and I drive it every weekend. I think the mileage may have dropped slightly but my baseline is too early to tell. Who the heck cares anyway, right?

Just like everything else, I'm happy I went this way and appreciate those that have the EFI's as well. This is what was meant for me. I'm an old school twiddler/fiddler and have not really made the full on jump to hi-tech computer-based systems. The Webers I can do with a Synchrometer, a timing light, my tach, a few plug reading sessions, my nose and ears.
Oh, and my 45 year old tool collection that I am thoroughly enjoying using again.

As an aside, I wonder how GreatAsp's (Eric's) Dynatek setup finally worked out for him. He indicated he too was having a little problem with the tune and said it was still not right after spending big $$ to install. I was hoping he was going to end up happy.

[Great Asp]

Originally Posted by rokndad

As an aside, I wonder how GreatAsp's (Eric's) Dynatek setup finally worked out for him. He indicated he too was having a little problem with the tune and said it was still not right after spending big $$ to install. I was hoping he was going to end up happy.

Rok,

A little soon (as posted above) for me to say how it is working. Once I get the clutch and engine really broken in I will put it through it's paces.

Bad weather and getting the car titled has delayed testing...

E

[D-CEL]

Brent,

The guys I have talked to at kinsler said they have sold a couple, but i havent spoken with any of the users directly.
What kind of intel are you looking for?

[RodKnock]

So, it sounds like there's no perfect solution. The Dynatek system is advertised as not needing any tuning or programming, which sounds right up my alley. I tend to be "new school" or "plug and play." However, that may not be true. The only two CC members that have the Dynatek FI installed, to be the best of my knowledge, are Dean Lampe on his Windsor and Eric on his FE. Anyone else?

[razerwire]

I have extra twm set up will sell for $3500.00. Comes with f.a.s.t. controller, polished manifold, linkage, bolt it on and tune it yourself or use professional. 209-602-8649, central ca. area.

[rokndad]

Originally Posted by razerwire

I have extra twm set up will sell for $3500.00. Comes with f.a.s.t. controller, polished manifold, linkage, bolt it on and tune it yourself or use professional. 209-602-8649, central ca. area.

Rodney,

This is you. And nearby sounds like. Heard nothing but good things about TWM.

[RodKnock]

Eric, what ECU did you run?

razerwire, sounds like a great deal. Send me a PM or email with more info and pics. I'm located in the SF Bay Area.

[Great Asp]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Eric, what ECU did you run?

Well, I don't know.... It's blue.

I did not get the self learning ECU, which I am told is not as good as this one.

I am checking with Dynatek and will see what comp I got.

E

[Garage10]

Hey D-Cel
Kinslers web is a little short on info. Is anyone actually running this on a 460 yet that I could speak with ?
Thanks
Brent

[razerwire]

rokndad SORRY 209-602-8645 not 9. Was going to put on Bennett push rod suspension car but decided to use n.o.s. original sidewinder ,1 four barrel. Going backwards?

[rokndad]

Originally Posted by razerwire

rokndad SORRY 209-602-8645 not 9. Was going to put on Bennett push rod suspension car but decided to use n.o.s. original sidewinder ,1 four barrel. Going backwards?

I'm just a bystander. Rodknock (Rodney) is interested in your setup. Send him an email with the particulars. Yeah, I know our user names get confusing. He's a lot younger and better looking. But I'm just guessing.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by rokndad

I'm just a bystander. Rodknock (Rodney) is interested in your setup. Send him an email with the particulars. Yeah, I know our user names get confusing. He's a lot younger and better looking. But I'm just guessing.

No need to guess, you're correct sir.

Just doing a little due diligence.

[D-CEL]

Brent,

The last quote I received from Brian at Kinsler was just $5890.00
The breakdown is below
injection manifold assembly 3,972.25
Optional 3.0” throttle bores 210.00
aluminum fuel rails and hardware 492.60
Manifold Absolute Pressure Reference Log System 251.85
ACCEL/DFI dual trigger small cap distributor 348.80
Labor, to drill each manifold runner for 10-32 thread for IAC 105.00
Jackshaft “Swing Set” throttle Linkage kit; 509.90

You will also need the fuel system. The cost of the fuel system is up to you. If you bought all high end parts, you could spend $2500.00, if your thrifty you might be able to get it done for $1200.00 or less? Aeromotive does a universal kit for about $1400 that (they claim) will support 700hp. I assume that is a N/A hp number.
Typically, the system will consist of:
Fuel pump
Two filters
Fuel pressure regulator
Lines and fittings
Fittings
Relays and wiring

the EFI controller and Injectors
There are so many controllers out there now, its hard to know which direction to go.
Because im trying to make a big HP number, I like the Big Stuff 3, and the Accel/DFI gen 7+ based on the specs and input from my tuner. I have heard from a couple of my late model mustang friends that that FAST XFI is very good.
Everybody I have talked to says the wide band 02 sensor options are worth the extra money.
Theses ECMS run about $2000-$2500.
The fuel injectors run from $250-$500.00 depending on your fuel needs

Yea 10K sounds close. Needless to say it is not inexpensive.
I haven’t spoken to anyone that actually drives or races with one, so I can’t comment. Sounds like one of us will be the first! LOL

Jason

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by razerwire

rokndad SORRY 209-602-8645 not 9. Was going to put on Bennett push rod suspension car but decided to use n.o.s. original sidewinder ,1 four barrel. Going backwards?

Sorry razerwire, I just re-read your post and I now notice that your manifold is polished. If I make the switch to EFI, then I believe I'll want a factory-like cast aluminum finish.

[Garage10]

D-Cell
Sorry to not be more specific. Wondering what total cost and all parts needed would be and how it is performing. What computer options there are.
Thanks
Brent