Continuation CSX a "Kit car"?

[terry251]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

I believe the word to use to describe this thread would be a "continuation" thread

Nope, it is a "reprised" thread. Sorta like Evan's reprised manufactured kit car.

[Excaliber]

Actually I think Shelby and Ford slugged it out in court over the Cobra name. While Ford DOES own the name, I believe the settlement left Shelby with the right to use the name.

What Shelby CANNOT do is stop replica manufacturers from using the shape or body style of the Cobra. He lost that right in court when it passed to public domain. The essential shape/style of a Cobra body, and THATS WHAT IT IS, a COBRA body style is in public domain.

To NOT call it a "Cobra" is akin to labeling "The artist formerly known as Prince". You talk 'legalize' till the cows come home, fact is when someone see's your replica going down the street there thinking "Wow, a Cobra". Often accompanied by a large grin. When you say you have an AC Cobra or a Shelby Cobra people inherently know what your talking about. While Ford and Shelby control the 'trademark' name, they have both completely lost the concept of what is and isn't a Cobra in the real world. As for the shape, not just in concept, but legally as well. THATS the 'end game' and there aint nothing Shelby can do about it!

The replica companies OWE SHELBY NOTHING, what ever good will he might have had, what ever monies he might have agreed to has been squandered by the man himself. He alone is responsible for his fate, for his bitterness, for his tarnished legacy.

Now careful how you read this part:
SPF by agreeing to a license arrangement with Shelby lost a considerable amount of respect from me, simply put, SHAME on them. As a manufacturer, what they did was as unethical as what Shelby has/is doing. Both make a great car, the owners are great people, the corporations have lost their moral compass.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

The essential shape/style of a Cobra body, and THATS WHAT IT IS, a COBRA body style is in public domain.

Actually, if you really want to play semantics, you could call it a Modified AC ACE with an American V8 installed One of the reasons why SAI lost the trade dress issue was because it so closely resembled the AC ACE (which is what the original Cobra is based off of), that SAI could not state that it as it's own entity produced the original car/body shape (modified it yes, but did not invent it).


Bill S.

[Naumoff]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Actually I think Shelby and Ford slugged it out in court over the Cobra name. While Ford DOES own the name, I believe the settlement left Shelby with the right to use the name.

What Shelby CANNOT do is stop replica manufacturers from using the shape or body style of the Cobra. He lost that right in court when it passed to public domain. The essential shape/style of a Cobra body, and THATS WHAT IT IS, a COBRA body style is in public domain.

To NOT call it a "Cobra" is akin to labeling "The artist formerly known as Prince". You talk 'legalize' till the cows come home, fact is when someone see's your replica going down the street there thinking "Wow, a Cobra". Often accompanied by a large grin. When you say you have an AC Cobra or a Shelby Cobra people inherently know what your talking about. While Ford and Shelby control the 'trademark' name, they have both completely lost the concept of what is and isn't a Cobra in the real world. As for the shape, not just in concept, but legally as well. THATS the 'end game' and there aint nothing Shelby can do about it!

The replica companies OWE SHELBY NOTHING, what ever good will he might have had, what ever monies he might have agreed to has been squandered by the man himself. He alone is responsible for his fate, for his bitterness, for his tarnished legacy.

Now careful how you read this part:
SPF by agreeing to a license arrangement with Shelby lost a considerable amount of respect from me, simply put, SHAME on them. As a manufacturer, what they did was as unethical as what Shelby has/is doing. Both make a great car, the owners are great people, the corporations have lost their moral compass.

Ernie, This is not always true. Most of the time people don't know what it is.
Most of the people I tell that I have a Shelby Cobra replica they have a strange look on their face and say "you have a Mustang?"
I believe the Cobra name is joined more to the Mustang than our AC Ace replica's.

The Cobra name has been used on the Mustang since the 70s. Starting with the Mustang II and with the coiled snake emblem non the less.
That is a long time.
I really don't care about all this "definition of a word" or any legal mumbo jumbo. I only know I enjoy my car and I built my car for me and I built it to drive.

Read my odometer.

[Naumoff]

.........But I do feel that it is wrong to misrepresent a kit or modern replica as an original 60s Cobra.
This is wrong.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Naumoff

Ernie, This is not always true. Most of the time people don't know what it is.
Most of the people I tell that I have a Shelby Cobra replica they have a strange look on their face and say "you have a Mustang?"
I believe the Cobra name is joined more to the Mustang than our AC Ace replica's.

The Cobra name has been used on the Mustang since the 70s. Starting with the Mustang II and with the coiled snake emblem non the less.
That is a long time.

The Cobra name was also used on late '60's GT500 mustangs, and maybe GT350's. In addition, the fairlane based muscle car was called a cobra as well. Not to be confused with the cobra-jet engine. Then came the Mustang II "charlies angel" cobra, and so on.

[Joe Wicked]

Don't forget the Torino based 69 Ford Cobra (even though I did not even know this car existed until late last year).

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Joe Wicked

Don't forget the Torino based 69 Ford Cobra (even though I did not even know this car existed until late last year).

Nothing compares to the power and beauty of the 1975 Cobra II.

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The Cobra name was also used on late '60's GT500 mustangs, and maybe GT350's. In addition, the fairlane based muscle car was called a cobra as well. Not to be confused with the cobra-jet engine. Then came the Mustang II "charlies angel" cobra, and so on.

The Cobra SNAKE emblem was used on some of the 60s Shelby's logo, but the cars were never called Cobras. In 1968 1/2, there was a "Cobra-jet" Mustang, which was designated for the use of the new 428 CJ engine. The Boss 351 used the 351 CJ engine as well, but the car was not called a Cobra. No Mustang wore the Cobra name until 1976.

As for the big cars, the Torino was like the 68 Mustang, in that you could order a Cobra Jet motor when they came out. But the actual Torino COBRA came out in 1970, with the introduction of the 429CJ and 429SCJ motors.

I do not believe any other Fords wore the Cobra name back then (but I could be wrong).

[Joe Wicked]

Originally Posted by Power Surge

As for the big cars, the Torino was like the 68 Mustang, in that you could order a Cobra Jet motor when they came out. But the actual Torino COBRA came out in 1970, with the introduction of the 429CJ and 429SCJ motors.
I do not believe any other Fords wore the Cobra name back then (but I could be wrong).

Limited production run (specifically for Nascar to be able to use them) 1969 Ford Cobra. It is the Torino body, and the next year they called them Torino Cobras, but the 69 was just Ford Cobra. I never knew they existed until late last year/early this year. Ron61 from here has one. As far as I know, it is the oldest Ford using it.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Power Surge

The Cobra SNAKE emblem was used on some of the 60s Shelby's logo, but the cars were never called Cobras. In 1968 1/2, there was a "Cobra-jet" Mustang, which was designated for the use of the new 428 CJ engine. The Boss 351 used the 351 CJ engine as well, but the car was not called a Cobra. No Mustang wore the Cobra name until 1976.

As for the big cars, the Torino was like the 68 Mustang, in that you could order a Cobra Jet motor when they came out. But the actual Torino COBRA came out in 1970, with the introduction of the 429CJ and 429SCJ motors.

I do not believe any other Fords wore the Cobra name back then (but I could be wrong).

I believe you are wrong. Actually, I believe there were '68 Shelby mustangs registered as "cobra's". In fact, there is I believe a 1968 issue of ?Hot-Rod that compares a '68 427 vette vs a shelby cobra. They are comparing a vette to a '68 GT500 (KR). These cars did have the cobra emblems on them, and I believe were called cobra's as well as shelby mustangs, GT350's/500's.

here it is. Not HotRod, but Motor Trend.



From another site:

"Is There a Correct Name for the Shelby Mustangs; Are They Cobras?
In order to answer this questions I have done some research in the sales and marketing literature for the Shelby Mustangs. The cars are almost always refered to as "Shelby GT350/500". The name "Mustang" does not appear. Early 1965 ads refer to the GT350 as "Shelby G.T.350" (note the periods). The original marketing purpose was to give the impression that this is a race car sold to the public. The name "Cobra" did not appear, probably because it may be thought to cause confusion with the Shelby Cobra roadsters. The marketing line was that the cars were a mixture of a Mustang and Cobra, but neither of the word appear on the name, but both Cobra and Mustang insignia are on the cars. The Ford name and insignia are absent. From 67 on, the cars lose the Mustang badge on the grill (replaced by a Cobra badge) and "Cobra" is added to their name. In addition "SHELBY" appears on the front of the hood. The cars are refered in the literature as the "Shelby Cobra GT's". I prefer to refer to them as "Shelby Mustangs" because they are Mustangs modified and tuned by Shelby. Names are different in context (in the 60s) and now. Everyone that looked at a Shelby Mustang then new it was a Mustang, because it looked like a Mustang and Mustangs were aplenty. Now fastback Mustangs from the 60s are a rare sight and difficult to identify for the casual observer, so the name "Mustang" help this purpose. The "Shelby Cobra GT" is confusing because it looks a lot like "Shelby Cobra 427" and "Shelby GT40", which refer to cars that share only common engines with the Mustang. Nevertheless, what one calls this great cars is a matter of personal preference."



Plymouth came out with the '68 roadrunner - a cheap muscle car. In reaction to this, pontiac came out with the '69 Judge (originally supposed to be a stripped down cheap muscle car), Oldsmobile the W-31, then ralleye 350, and Dodge the superbee, and then Ford the '69 cobra, a stripped down fairlane (fastback or formal roof) with a 428CJ engine. This car was not a torino, which was an appearence package, and the Torino Cobra is a misnomer, as all the cobra's were based really from the fairlane. However, the NASCAR race cars had "Torino Cobra" on the quarter panels which was misleading.

From another site:

1968 Torino Fastback

The Ford Torino was produced by the Ford motor company from 1968/1976. Described as "Ford's newest bright idea" , the all new Torino was created to eventually replace the very popular Fairlane name with an all new brand of Ford beauty, power and style. Although Ford still used the Fairlane name up through 1971, the Torino name was used on most body styles and was designed with all new looks and appeal for a whole new generation of car buyers.

Still a sports sedan, the first Torino was larger in size than the previous year Fairlane and incorporated a whole new roof line in the fastback as well as the new two door hardtop, also called a two door formal roof. The Torino was built from the start with plenty of power and comfort with standard equipment v-8 engines from the small block 302, to the big block 390 and 428 Cobra Jet introduced in 1969. The 1968 Torino was offered in several styles. Available in the two door fastback, two or four door hardtop, station wagon, and two door convertible. The Ranchero pickup also carried the Torino front end design for 1968. Ford used the Fairlane name on the economy version of the Torino. Although a lot of car, these Fairlanes were different than the Torino in molding design, standard options, and interior trim décor. The Torino GT was the upscale Torino in 1968 with standard body decal stripe, styled steel wheels, wide oval sports tires and standard equipment v-8 engine. These were available with optional four speed floor shift. We have yet to see an actual example, but 1968 Torino literature indicates that the Torino was available with the 427 cubic inch Cobra V-8 engine with four barrel carburetor and hydraulic lifters.


1969 Fairlane Cobra

The 1969 Ford Torino carried the same body lines and model designations as in the previous year. Soon to be a racing legend and high performance hall of famer, the all new Fairlane Cobra was introduced in 1969 in addition to the other models. The new Cobra was built for speed with one of the most fierce "showroom stock" performance engines ever built. Available in either the two door hardtop, or fastback roofline, the Fairlane Cobra was fitted with standard equipment 428 four barrel Cobra Jet big block power plant. The new performance Fairlane, boasted 335 horsepower at 440 pounds of torque at 3400 rpm. The carburetor was a healthy 735 cfm. Also standard on the Cobra was floor mounted four speed manual transmission, dual exhaust, beefed up suspension for minimum body roll and factory bucket seats. If this did not get you excited, you could order an optional ram-air option with functional air hood scoop or a "Traction-Lok" differential.


1970 Torino GT fastback

The 1970 and 1971 Ford Torino featured a complete new body style change with all new looks and style. The new lower, wider, and longer Torino was gracefully designed with aerodynamic lines. 1970 saw the introduction of the 351 Cleveland engines in the Torino as well as the new 429 Thunder Jet, Cobra Jet, and Super Cobra Jet engine options. The 429 Cobra Jet was rated at a whopping 360 horsepower right out of the box, with an additional 5 horsepower added when ordered with the "ram air" shaker hood with functional air scoop. Also available on the Torino GT and Cobra was the Hurst four speed manual transmission, rear window louvers or sports slats, ribbon style tachometer, rim blow three spoke steering wheel, high back bucket seats, fifteen inch magnum 500 chrome wheels, And traction-lok differential in the rear. A very notable and popular option on the Torino was the flip style hideaway headlight option. This vacuum operated headlights would open when driving and hideaway in closed position when the car was turned off. The new Torino GT featured a new design reflective body side decal called "laser stripes". These attractive new stripes faded in multiple colors while being light reflecting. These were optional equipment on Torino GT and Ranchero GT.

As you can see, the 1970 and 1971 Torino offered the enthusiast a whole range of choices depending on the buyers interest. And for the family or business executive, the Torino Brougham offered luxurious accommodations with all the good looks of the sport models. The 1970 Torino was so well received that it was voted motor trend magazines car of the year.

[SL]

The late 90's brouchure I have on the CSX cars reads "component cars."

The best response I have heard so far, in the "is it real" question.... "why yes it is a real Factory Five Cobra, made right here in the USA." Which is a clever non response to the assumed question.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by ANB

Any opinions? Is the continuation CSX 4000 a Kit Car or "replica"? Body a Shelby and engine installs elsewhere. Other body parts?

In the true sense of the definition was the original considered a Kit car? AC Bristol body, Ford engine and Jaguar brakes or suspension.

According to way I have seen the law written in several states (and hopefully my understanding is correct), ALL of our wonderful rides are defined as "Kit Cars" or "Specially Constructed Vehicles" Kirkham, Shelby, FFR, ERA, Superformance, the tax man and the state consider them all the same.

Ultimately, it really doesn't matter what we banter about here on the site. The state where you register your Chariot of Fire is--by definition--going to tell you what it is.

David

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

According to way I have seen the law written in several states (and hopefully my understanding is correct), ALL of our wonderful rides are defined as "Kit Cars" or "Specially Constructed Vehicles" Kirkham, Shelby, FFR, ERA, Superformance, the tax man and the state consider them all the same.

Ultimately, it really doesn't matter what we banter about here on the site. The state where you register your Chariot of Fire is--by definition--going to tell you what it is.

David

There goes the THE MAN keeping me down again. I don't want THE MAN telling me what my Kirkham is, or for that matter Evan either.

[ZOERA-SC7XX]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

According to way I have seen the law written in several states (and hopefully my understanding is correct), ALL of our wonderful rides are defined as "Kit Cars" or "Specially Constructed Vehicles" Kirkham, Shelby, FFR, ERA, Superformance, the tax man and the state consider them all the same.

Ultimately, it really doesn't matter what we banter about here on the site. The state where you register your Chariot of Fire is--by definition--going to tell you what it is.

David

Not only is this statement true, but the states also take your precious CSX VIN number (as well as ERA, FFR, SPF, CCX, etc.), and replace it with their own generic VIN number. Alas, all of our cars are kit cars, component cars, or composite cars, regardless what you may tell yourself.

[CSX 4039]

Originally Posted by ZOERA-SC7XX

Not only is this statement true, but the states also take your precious CSX VIN number (as well as ERA, FFR, SPF, CCX, etc.), and replace it with their own generic VIN number. Alas, all of our cars are kit cars, component cars, or composite cars, regardless what you may tell yourself.

Yes, but, the government also classifies a '63 String Ray and a '63 Corvair in the same broad category. Since when have bureaucrats ever gotten the true essence and provenance of anything right? If it were not for their intrusion into the seat belt/emissions/ 5 mph bumper arena, a 2008 Shelby Cobra could be sold with a drive train.

Ford Thunderbird production also suffered an interuption, but came back to life with modern equipment. Had FoMoCo come back out with a reissued '57 T-Bird, they too would have to have sold it sans engine and tranny, to be finished elsewhere. That wouldn't have made it any less of an authentic (but not original) Ford T-Bird.

[Naumoff]

Originally Posted by CSX 4039

Yes, but, the government also classifies a '63 String Ray and a '63 Corvair in the same broad category. Since when have bureaucrats ever gotten the true essence and provenance of anything right? If it were not for their intrusion into the seat belt/emissions/ 5 mph bumper arena, a 2008 Shelby Cobra could be sold with a drive train.

Ford Thunderbird production also suffered an interuption, but came back to life with modern equipment. Had FoMoCo come back out with a reissued '57 T-Bird, they too would have to have sold it sans engine and tranny, to be finished elsewhere. That wouldn't have made it any less of an authentic (but not original) Ford T-Bird.

An authentic Ford Kit Car.

[RedCSX1]

Originally Posted by CSX 4039

Yes, but, the government also classifies a '63 String Ray and a '63 Corvair in the same broad category. Since when have bureaucrats ever gotten the true essence and provenance of anything right? If it were not for their intrusion into the seat belt/emissions/ 5 mph bumper arena, a 2008 Shelby Cobra could be sold with a drive train.

Ford Thunderbird production also suffered an interuption, but came back to life with modern equipment. Had FoMoCo come back out with a reissued '57 T-Bird, they too would have to have sold it sans engine and tranny, to be finished elsewhere. That wouldn't have made it any less of an authentic (but not original) Ford T-Bird.

CSX4039 I could not have said it better myself. It is the most accurate statement made in this entire thread.

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by CSX 4039

Yes, but, the government also classifies a '63 String Ray and a '63 Corvair in the same broad category.

Please enlighten us. You're saying an original '64 Cobra or an original '63 Corvette Grand Sport is treated the same as a component car produced in 2008?

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by A-Snake

Please enlighten us. You're saying an original '64 Cobra or an original '63 Corvette Grand Sport is treated the same as a component car produced in 2008?

I'm a little lost on the registration thing too. Regardless of how stupid the DMV is, a Continuation CSX is NOT sold as a full car, and in that respect cannot be compared to any full car no matter what it was or when it was made.

The titling process will AWALYS be a gray area of debate, because all the states handle it differently. Some states will use the car's issued VIN, title it as a 1965 cobra, and send you on your way. Other states will issue you their own VIN, put a big ugly yellow VIN sticker on the car, title it as a 2008, and make you put bumpers, DOT lights, and all the other crap on before they let you title the car.