have you registered a cobra in NSW?

[Rob. Smith]

Just found this in Aust Street Rod Federation web site
"ATTENTION ALL ENTHUSIASTS"
Vehicle Registration Information Day

Here is the information regarding “Vehicle Registration Information Day” to be held at the Regency Ramblers Club House located on the cnr Badgerys Creek Road & Elizabeth Drive Badgerys Creek, starting at 10.00am on Saturday the 14th of August.
This has been organised by the ASRF but is open to everyone that wants information. We will be going through what is on the table at present from the RTA, potential changes, VSI 50 (suspension rule) and Engineering System changes.
It doesn’t matter what type of vehicle a person owns, emphasising everyone is welcome, the more the better to get the correct information out there so everyone understands whats happening at present and in the future.
If you can pass this onto as many people as you can it would be appreciated.
IMPORTANT NOTE - This is not an argument session its purely for the ASRF to tell us what the RTA are proposing and whats already in place so we understand everything as well as possible and clarify all the things we are hearing about future rego laws etc.
Yours in rodding
Elvis
(Ian Davis)
There's also a bit on importing cars.

[Merv and Sharon]

I really would not even try to build a Cobra in NSW, if I was starting now. That attitude has to be disastrous for manufacturers in that state, as word gets out that no cars are being registered. It is a shame that there is no national body representing Cobra builders.

[dazza67]

Giday Merv, first post , and yet another of the clubbie guys. What you have said about a National body is one of the discussions going on at OZ clubbies, the problem is the states who have more user friendly RTA's dont want to have thier world altered by the issues of NSW, the problem i see is a head in the sand type issue, if NSW continues down its path, the other states will follow then we will all be in the same mess.
I fully agree with the idea of an Australian body for all ICV builders, with individual boards for vehicle types, ie cobra's, gt40's, clubbie's if they are needed.
The main issue I see is one of shifting goal posts, Suthol, Treeve, Liam and a couple of others are focusing on the issues of specific ADR's as Treeve has stated and the work these guys are doing is massive. more than a few of the guys have had issue where the car has been presented for inspection, failed for what ever reason, then upon re presentation being failed because the RTA changed the rules between inspections. This is my own personal thought, and it is the shell of an idea, not the mechanicals to make it work, but somthing along the idea of at the start of the build an application is filled out (as we do now) and a build permit number is issued, the date locks the ADR's the vehicle must comply with and gives a 5 year maximum build time if you build takes longer you must re apply for a new permit. The permit number is part of the build for the interests of engineering, ie the engineer want the steering shaft xrayed, the permit number is then stamped into the approved part. The general concept is the assembly of all of the parts with the permit number will then be presented and for a final inspection and then the VIN will be issued and it will become a car. Now this isnt right, or wrong, its just my line of thinking to help deal with the issues facing the Guys like Baz, Suthol, and Zedn who have had rules change on them after the cars were first presented.

[Baz]

Welcome Dazza67. You are in for some interesting reading.


Baz

[beauies]

Rob,

check the date of that i believe it was last year, from the article i found

Event Date: 14/8/10
date posted: 5/8/10

[Merv and Sharon]

Agreed Dazza. All states will go the same way. It won't take long either. The issue of rule changes after permission to build is issued is interesting. I am probably wrong, but I thought that in QLD that the permission to build letter was the date at which you had to comply - not a moving feast. I was also under the impression that a certain time was allocated for the build. I will have to go back and check my correspondence.

[suthol]

Originally Posted by Merv and Sharon

Agreed Dazza. All states will go the same way. It won't take long either. The issue of rule changes after permission to build is issued is interesting. I am probably wrong, but I thought that in QLD that the permission to build letter was the date at which you had to comply - not a moving feast. I was also under the impression that a certain time was allocated for the build. I will have to go back and check my correspondence.

G'day Merv,

NSW has always been a moving feast but was always limited to ADR changes and not the way that compliance is tested as per the seat mounts and seatbelt anchor points which at the very least has the potential to be destructive.

I don't know if this has been linked before but here is an address by Dan Leavy to the Victorian Parliament - Road Safety Committee to discuss ADRs in August 2009.

Dan is currently the GM of Light Vehicle Safety Policy in NSW but seems to have dreams of influencing the world not just NSW.

" Link Removed "

[Treeve]

G'day all,

I'd like to give details on the 'moving goal posts', so that it is clear that this is a two way street.

First up: The RTA side of things.

with regards to Steering columns, the NCOP requires ADR 10/01, which is no problem. The latest ADR is 10/02, which is a problem. However, the RTA have begun to request 10/02 compliance, even though they have not ratified the NCOPv2 as the working document. This leaves people in a position where it is not possible to comply to the actual rules, as the RTA are relying on rules which are not in legislation yet. Unfair, but at the end of the day, if you work to the ADR's you should be right (you would think).

Well, that brings me along to my favourite topic: Seat belts, and multi point harnesses. The NCOP (and NCOPv2) both say no to road legal harnesses. However, ADR 4/04 and ADR 5/05 make specific allowances for harness type installations, and I have emails from the Department of Infrastructure detailing their interpretation of the ADR's and hence that harnesses are legal. What happens if you apply the most recent ADR in these cases? well, I'm afraid no harnesses - the RTA will chop and change between the NCOP, the NCOPv2, and the ADR's as they see fit, to flummox you and waste your time and resources.

That is the side from the RTA however, it isn't all one way - we've all heard the stories of people suing the RTA for allowing them to register their car (I think such as story was in this thread about the unlucky bloke whose wife lost their unborn child). I've also heard about seatbelt mountings through fibreglass panels (which sounds ridiculous, but I'm assured it's true).

Another side to look at it from is not from an ICV viewpoint, but from a modifiers viewpoint. Having owned some silly cars in the UK (V8 hilux with 5" spring lift, 2" body lift on 36" tyres), I know that you can legally modify all kinds of stuff. I also know you can illegally modify all kinds of things too - e.g. you can bolt on massive turbos - who gets their car re-engineered after this? you can fit 'fully sik' noisy exhausts - where was the engineering on the noise levels? (oh wait, that's not something you need engineering for - but you need it to be engineered to register the car... thus making it legal to have a registration set of quiet rear exit pipes, and a set of side pipes at home for you to install after engineering is complete without breaking the RTA's rules - but I didn't tell you that). what about fitting 22" rims to your hilux? well, the vehicle needs to be de-rated so you can run car tyres on it - it should be registered on Light Truck tyres only as it has a tray. Do you honestly believe they've all done that?

Part of the issue is the RTA not using repeated standards, however a larger part of the issue is the general public not having the awareness of their legal requirements. The RTA are trying to improve the situation from their end, it is just hard to see an end game that suits both them and us (and the engineers).

As a small note, the NCOPv2 was supposed to be in place from 1/Jan/11; the RTA were significantly involved in the compilation of the new NCOP. less than 3 months after this date, they have already emailed the engineers asking for NSW specific modifications to the National Code Of Practise. What are they wasting my taxpayer money on now?

Cheers,

Treeve

[400TT]

You guys have hit the nail on the head

Yes, each state transport department controls the ICV process in each state.

So that's why each state start with the ADR's and then add in their own additional requirements or remove any they don't consider important for ICV's.

NSW & QLD have been the worst offenders in having additional requirements over what other states ask for.

NSW is a moving goal post at the moment.

QLD's extra requirements currently are fibreglass body testing, bump steer reports, plastic/polycarb certs, additional requirements for wheels, certified calcs for seatbelt mounts etc.

[*Cobber*]

Glad my car is registered with legal side pipes, full 5 point race harnesses and supercharger.

Building the car is fun but the legislation is a nightmare, good luck guys and keep at them where there is a will there is a way.

[boxhead]

Dazza, your proposal of seeking approval to build before comencing (to lock in ADR's) is exactly how it is done in the NT, Before commencing you fill out paperwork for "Approval in principal" on this form you supply all info regarding the build and forward it to the MVR(Motor Vehicle Registry), they sit at the start of every month and will either approve (and supply a build number) or advise what corrections need to be made.
You then have 4 years to complete your build, if you do nt finish in time you can apply for a 2 year extension.
I personally know there is a Roaring Fourties GT40 in Alice being built (the build has been on for a large number of years) and his emissions allow him to run webers.
I personally was also exempt and permitted to run live side pipes, chrome dials, alloy steering wheel and no crash pad, as the vehicle was being built to replicate a car that had these items (I did still need to run cats and heat shields).

If you want more info on the NT system, let me know.

[Zedn]

current pilot scheme in nsw requires registering for an icv number but it has no meaning and does not lock in adrs. I have a nsw icv number for my build.

[dazza67]

I am off to find my approval letter for my clubbie, just in case I have something SNAFU. We have to make an initial application but then it gets hand balled to the engineers until the final inspection, I don't think we have a time frame or an attached number in QLD, i think the basic description of the NT system is what I am thinking, I think.... it will give the builder some certainty as to what they can, and cant build.
I would love some more info on the NT system.

[Tenrocca]

Originally Posted by 400TT

QLD's extra requirements currently are fibreglass body testing, bump steer reports, plastic/polycarb certs, additional requirements for wheels, certified calcs for seatbelt mounts etc.

Craig - are the seat belts mounting points a full ADR (destructive) test that you need to do in NSW now, or something else?

Cheers

[Outwest34au]

Call me knaive, but the way I see it is the RTA and engineers are only responsible for the vehicle up until it is presented and approved for registration, right up until the point where the number plates are bolted on since you cant leave the rego office without them affixed.
Once ANY vehicle leaves the carpark it is then in the hands of the police, mobile RTA enforcement officers (or equivalent in other states) to ensure or penalise ongoing compliance to rules or lack thereof.
If any states RTA was to approve a car with seatbelts bolted through glass they definitely need a good jab with a pineapple.

In reality any clown can register a KE20 corolla and then fit 4 straight side pipes, 12 inch wide mags and a plethora of other trash but how in gods name can anyone but that idiot be held responsible for those actions??

No amount of restrictions, rule changes or prohibitive laws will stop an idiot from flouting all the rules including the law of common sense.

[Zedn]

Treeve,

Not entirely correct on the exhaust. The Protection Of Environmental Operations Act (POEO Act) prohibits modifications to emissions and modifications that effect noise. If a car is pulled over by the EPA and assessed for modifications to emmisions you will be prosecuted under this Act and also defected.

The fines under the POEO Act are far worse than a defect notice and are 10s of thousands of dollars.

Craig,

I am also interested to hear what QLD require for Seat Anchors and Seat Belt Anchor testing/compliance for ICVs (ADR 3 and ADR 5). Can you please elaborate on certified calcs? Do you just mean calculations by the engineering signatory?

Cheers.

[Zedn]

Originally Posted by Outwest34au

Call me knaive, but the way I see it is the RTA and engineers are only responsible for the vehicle up until it is presented and approved for registration, right up until the point where the number plates are bolted on since you cant leave the rego office without them affixed.
Once ANY vehicle leaves the carpark it is then in the hands of the police, mobile RTA enforcement officers (or equivalent in other states) to ensure or penalise ongoing compliance to rules or lack thereof.
If any states RTA was to approve a car with seatbelts bolted through glass they definitely need a good jab with a pineapple.

In reality any clown can register a KE20 corolla and then fit 4 straight side pipes, 12 inch wide mags and a plethora of other trash but how in gods name can anyone but that idiot be held responsible for those actions??

No amount of restrictions, rule changes or prohibitive laws will stop an idiot from flouting all the rules including the law of common sense.

Exactly. We also have annual pink slip inspections to verify that a car is in roadworthy condition and that modifications requiring certification have paper work to go with them.

It is not new vehicles that are the problem, especially ICVs. I have seen some of the studies on road statistics put out by Monash university. There is no catagory for ICVs, they only consider class of vehicle and the major manufacturers.

The real dangerous cars are the Nissan across the road with 1" wheel spacers to make the wheels stick out past the guards (look at me im a drift racer), boost controller, bigger turbo, and modified fuel pressure regulator to force more pressure at the injectors and increase capacity oh and a set of Monza race seats from autobarn attached with some brackets made of a bit of tin that was once a pier cap under the house. Driving at max boost it is a death machine and anything below that it is as rich as bill gates and bellowing black smoke.

Its too hard and too much resources to completely control that so they do all they can and clamped down on the ICVs.

[OZCOBRA]

Originally Posted by Zedn

Treeve,

Not entirely correct on the exhaust. The Protection Of Environmental Operations Act (POEO Act) prohibits modifications to emissions and modifications that effect noise. If a car is pulled over by the EPA and assessed for modifications to emmisions you will be prosecuted under this Act and also defected.

The fines under the POEO Act are far worse than a defect notice and are 10s of thousands of dollars.

Cheers.

One would Note here in Vic. now you don't here alot of the turbo boys scooting around and popping the old blow off now...If the EPA get ya for it here you'll START with a $1500.00 Fine for exiting to the atmosphere!

[Zedn]

Originally Posted by OZCOBRA

One would Note here in Vic. now you don't here alot of the turbo boys scooting around and popping the old blow off now...If the EPA get ya for it here you'll START with a $1500.00 Fine for exiting to the atmosphere!

Yep, Same thing. Fined for modifications to factory emmissions and im not sure about the exact clause in Vic as each state has seperate legislation, but in NSW there is also a clause about using a motor vehicle to make unnecessary noise.

[Treeve]

Fair point about the fines, but how many have been given? How many 3" back turbo exhausts can you see on the streets? The penalties are high, but I'm still woken up by d!ckheads doing circlework. Have they been defected?

Just to relax myself again, whilst I probably was wrong in the details I chose, my point was reiterated by most; once it leaves with plates, it's up to the owner. The rta have guidelines for what you can do at home to modify your car, which you can't present as an engineered item for first rego. Ridiculous.

Treeve