Absolute Pace

Go Back   Club Cobra > Club Forums > Australian Cobra Club

Welcome to Club Cobra!  The World's largest non biased Shelby Cobra related site!

  •  » Representation from nearly all Cobra/Daytona/GT40 manufacturers
  •  » Help from all over the world for your questions
  •  » Build logs for you and all members
  •  » Blogs
  •  » Image Gallery
  •  » Many thousands of members and nearly 1 million posts! 

YES! I want to register an account for free right now!  p.s.: For registered members this ad will NOT show

Keith Craft Racing
Nevada Classics
MMG Superformance
Main Menu
Nevada Classics
Nevada Classics
MMG Superformance
Keith Craft Racing
Advertise at CC
Banner Ad Rates
Keith Craft Racing
MMG Superformance
MMG Superformance
MMG Superformance
March 2024
S M T W T F S
          1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31            

Kirkham Motorsports

Like Tree5Likes
  • 1 Post By Paintwerks
  • 1 Post By Modena
  • 1 Post By Gav
  • 1 Post By boss ac
  • 1 Post By SydneyChris

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 01-26-2015, 08:01 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Melbourne, Vic
Cobra Make, Engine: Pace 427SC. LSA Supercharged with 6sp TR-6060 trans.
Posts: 463
Not Ranked     
Default Traction Control

With somewhere around 600hp in a 1000kg car and a 90" wheelbase, I decided that it would be a great investment in both mine and my Cobra's mortality to run traction control.

I just spoke with Chip Torque, the Australian agents of the UK Racelogic Traction Control system - regarded as the best system on the market. I hope it's ok with the mods to post this, but I'd like to set up a group buy. Chip Torque cannot provide a discount on anything less than 5 kits. To that end, myself and one other (Darryl) are buying a kit each so we need at minimum 3 more.

The kit includes:

Digital controller in black with LCD display(silver available at $10 less). Can dial in how much 'assistance' you require
Launch control capability
4 wheel speed sensors (On the Pace Cobras we have them on the front already but the sensors all need to be the same)

$1971 inc GST plus freight.

If we can get those 5 orders in one hit, then they should be able to get us another 5-8% off the above price but this is dependent on when we order as they need to factor in exchange rate fluctuations. But there will be some kind of saving. Delivery to one point Melbourne then I'd ship them out to their respective owners for the cost of the freight/postage and insurance. They'll only order them once they've received full payment. ETA on delivery is 5 days to 4 weeks.

If you are interested, can you kindly please PM me by Monday Feb 2nd.

Cheers,
Sime
d488y2 likes this.
__________________
www.paintwerks.com.au
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 01-26-2015, 09:24 PM
sambo's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne, VIC
Cobra Make, Engine: Harrison, 6.0L Chev
Posts: 2,513
Not Ranked     
Default

G'day Simon. Just a thought - will the blown LSA enjoy having fuel/spark cut all the time when on boost?

I'd be considering an LS3 or something a little less wild if I thought the LSA was too overpowered for a Cobra. That's just my personal opinion of course.
__________________
"A spectacularly fast car in a grand if dated tradition."
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 01-26-2015, 09:45 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Melbourne, Vic
Cobra Make, Engine: Pace 427SC. LSA Supercharged with 6sp TR-6060 trans.
Posts: 463
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sambo View Post
G'day Simon. Just a thought - will the blown LSA enjoy having fuel/spark cut all the time when on boost?

I'd be considering an LS3 or something a little less wild if I thought the LSA was too overpowered for a Cobra. That's just my personal opinion of course.
G'day Paul,

Fair call.....I'm not suggesting that I'm going to drive the car flat out all the time where I'll need the TC constantly - and I will have sticky Avon CR6ZZ tyres. Besides, I'm locked into going with the LSA anyways! I don't believe it will be an issue with the TC cutting boost/spark however. After all, the GTS has traction control and there are guys who have those things making over 800hp, and I have a turbo 350Z that has the Racelogic system fitted and it works great.

I'd just like to have the system as insurance.

Just need two more for the GB now!

Cheers,
Sime
__________________
www.paintwerks.com.au
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 01-26-2015, 10:58 PM
Gaz64's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Brisbane, QLD
Cobra Make, Engine:
Posts: 2,773
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sambo View Post
G'day Simon. Just a thought - will the blown LSA enjoy having fuel/spark cut all the time when on boost?

I'd be considering an LS3 or something a little less wild if I thought the LSA was too overpowered for a Cobra. That's just my personal opinion of course.
It doesn't cut fuel or spark while traction loss is present. Electronic throttle control from the factory.

Hope you guys can get your systems to talk to each other.
__________________
Gary

Gold Certified Holden Technician
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 01-26-2015, 11:22 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Melbourne, Vic
Cobra Make, Engine: Pace 427SC. LSA Supercharged with 6sp TR-6060 trans.
Posts: 463
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaz64 View Post
It doesn't cut fuel or spark while traction loss is present. Electronic throttle control from the factory.

Hope you guys can get your systems to talk to each other.
Gary,

Are you talking about the GTS?

If so, then the electronic throttle control is different to the Racelogic system as you suggest. Pulled this excerpt from the Racelogic manual:

Quote:
".......When the system detects wheelspin above programmed thresholds a fuel cut is initiated to reduce the power of the engine, therefore reducing wheelspin. Connecting the system involves interfacing with the vehicles existing ABS sensors to provide the wheelspeed inputs and breaking each of the signal wires supplying the fuel injectors. This allows the Traction Control to cut fuel when wheelspin has been detected.
Do you think there'd be an issue with the Racelogic TCS initiating a fuel cut? I'll check that out with ChipTorque.
__________________
www.paintwerks.com.au
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2015, 02:04 AM
750hp's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Brisbane, Australia, Q
Cobra Make, Engine: Contemporary CCX3117 427FE
Posts: 4,381
Not Ranked     
Default

What's to stop the GTS system from being used? If it's already a feature of your ECU, that would seem like an easier option.
__________________
Craig
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2015, 03:42 AM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Melbourne, Vic
Cobra Make, Engine: Pace 427SC. LSA Supercharged with 6sp TR-6060 trans.
Posts: 463
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 750hp View Post
What's to stop the GTS system from being used? If it's already a feature of your ECU, that would seem like an easier option.
Craig, I have the GMPP engine controller package which, to the best of my knowledge has been stripped of extraneous functionality. It's basically been built just to run the engine.
__________________
www.paintwerks.com.au
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2015, 02:27 PM
Modena's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Cheltenham, Vic
Cobra Make, Engine: Classic Revival CR3516, LS3, Aussie Mike'd T-56, 3.70 LSD, AP brakes, Penske shocks
Posts: 1,616
Not Ranked     
Default

Assuming the LSA GTS is the same as other Commodores, traction control is handled by the BCM not the engine ECU, and in LS engine swaps almost no-one installs the BCM due to the extra hassle/wiring/etc for something that is really not required. BCM handles dash, traction, ABS etc.
Gav likes this.
__________________
BUILD-BLOG: http://cobrablog.holnet.net
Ben in AU
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2015, 04:04 PM
Gav's Avatar
Gav Gav is offline
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mildura, vic
Cobra Make, Engine: FFR Coupe, 416ci of LS goodness
Posts: 2,349
Not Ranked     
Default

After having melted a couple of pistons in the past I'd be careful cutting fuel in a boosted engine that doesn't have forged pistons.
There is a reason that the factory use the throttle for their traction control.
Modena likes this.
__________________
Powered by Cu
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2015, 05:55 PM
Modena's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Cheltenham, Vic
Cobra Make, Engine: Classic Revival CR3516, LS3, Aussie Mike'd T-56, 3.70 LSD, AP brakes, Penske shocks
Posts: 1,616
Not Ranked     
Default

unless I'm mistaken Race Logic supports an install of cutting fuel, or spark, or both. Just sayin. I'd also be very careful in an FI engine.
__________________
BUILD-BLOG: http://cobrablog.holnet.net
Ben in AU
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2015, 07:36 PM
sambo's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne, VIC
Cobra Make, Engine: Harrison, 6.0L Chev
Posts: 2,513
Not Ranked     
Default

Simon, maybe you'd be better off with a permanent valet mode, say with a lazy 300kW?
__________________
"A spectacularly fast car in a grand if dated tradition."
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2015, 08:13 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Melboune, vic
Cobra Make, Engine: DRB supercharged 5.4
Posts: 16
Not Ranked     
Default

very very good idea to run T/C....mine is factory FPV from 2006 from the donor car and whilst I know its come a long way since then you don't realize how good it is until you turn it off. Blown cars generate sooo much torque (mine is 770nm @4800rpm@8psi) that when I turn it off (a simple button on the dash disables ABS and T/C) it can burst into wheelspin at will...I have logged 6000kms now and cant remember the last time I tempted fate and turned it off....its just a much better car with it on....in my humble opinion of course!
d488y2 likes this.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2015, 08:23 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Melbourne, Vic
Cobra Make, Engine: Pace 427SC. LSA Supercharged with 6sp TR-6060 trans.
Posts: 463
Not Ranked     
Default

All fair points gents. Thanks.

Race logic do have this to say on their site:

Quote:
Customer:- I am concerned that the system cuts fuel, and I have a highly modified turbo engine, which if it runs lean will cause instant damage. How safe is the Racelogic system on these types of engine ?

Answer:- The Racelogic system works on individual injectors, and is designed only to cut out one whole injection pulse. The amount of fuel is not just decreased, it is completely removed for one stroke. This means the engine either receives a 100% complete amount of fuel or none at all. If it receives none at all, the spark has no effect, the mixture will not ignite, and therefore the temperature does not go up. We have succesfully fitted the system to Formula One engines, 750 BHP Turbo Engines (in our own Supra), motorbike engines and kart engines.
__________________
www.paintwerks.com.au
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2015, 11:40 PM
Gaz64's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Brisbane, QLD
Cobra Make, Engine:
Posts: 2,773
Not Ranked     
Default

Sorry lads, I stand corrected.

The ECM retards the ignition and drops injectors.

Traction Control System
When drive wheel slip is noted while the brake is not applied, the electronic brake control module will enter traction control mode.

First, the electronic brake control module requests the engine control module to reduce the amount of torque to the drive wheels via the serial data. The engine control module reduces torque to the drive wheels by retarding spark timing and turning off fuel injectors. The engine control module reports the amount of torque delivered to the drive wheels via the serial data circuit.

So it would seem that you would need an ECM. a BCM, and an EBCM.
Sounds too complex. Would be easier to add the system described by Sime above.
__________________
Gary

Gold Certified Holden Technician
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2015, 02:23 AM
750hp's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Brisbane, Australia, Q
Cobra Make, Engine: Contemporary CCX3117 427FE
Posts: 4,381
Not Ranked     
Default

Interesting. I'd never seen it mentioned that a whole injection pulse is cut. That makes sense! I guess you could set soft cuts and hard cuts based on the number of cylinders you'd drop per cycle.

I have an M800 Motec that has the traction control function, but I think there are so many variables and configuration options that it was daunting to even consider consider the best approach. Seems like a lot of guys now are fitting a DBW throttle body and managing traction through throttle position and ignition timing.

Gary, thanks for the extra detail about the factory GM stuff.
__________________
Craig
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2015, 05:11 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 365
Not Ranked     
Default

Copied from another forum with all credit to the research and documentation re using a GM LS series engine / ECU and BCM / EBCM... is all possible and doesn't seem that complex, as long as you are running a compatible ABS controller as well...

(contributed by Laurence Chapman)

ABS and Traction Control 2001+

I have installed the Electronic Brake Control Module on my GTM. My donor was 2001 but this guide should be good for 2001 to 2004. Prior to 2001 the plug differs as well as some of the wiring inputs.

The 2001+ EBCM provides 5 functions.

Antilock Brake System (under braking if a wheel locks it reduce pressure to that caliper until wheel turns)

Traction Control (if one rear wheel rotates more than the other when the brakes are not being applied, reduces engine torque and possibly applies braking power to that wheel).

Dynamic Rear Proportioning (regulate rear brake pressure to balance braking effort between front and back).

Vehicle Stability Enhancement System (monitors steering wheel position and yaw and tries to correct for oversteer or understeer).

Rear Stability Control (monitors lateral acceleration and uses brake pressure to improve stability)


As others have suggested, VSES and RSC are programmed based on the Corvette and would probably be undesirable on the GTM give the differences in weigh and weight distribution. In addition it would be hard to retain the steering wheel position sensors. So I wanted to disable these functions, but retain the others.

Fortunately if the EBCM does not have its yaw, accelerometer or steering wheel position sensors connected, it throws a Diagnostic Trouble Code in the EBCM, and disables the functions that rely on these sensors, while leaving other functions in place.

So what follows are the electrical connections that I made for the ABS, TC and DRP functions. You will have to figure out where you want to locate the EBCM module, and run the front and rear brake cylinder lines into it, with 4 individual lines out for each wheel. You will also need the ABS sensors on each wheel, and the connection harness which links the wheel sensors to the EBCM.

The Corvette has a switch to turn off Traction Control but it worked through the Body Control Module, which I did not retain, so the only way I can turn off Traction Control is to disable the whole EBCM by interrupting its 12V ignition supply.

When looking into the ABS connector on the harness I have 7 heavy connectors, which are A thru G, reading right to left. There are also 29 pin connectors which are #1 at the top right, thru #15 at the end of the top row, and #16 thru #29 from right to left on the second row. “Not used” means that on the corvette it was not used. “Unused” means that it was used on the corvette, but is not needed now.

A RED Battery 12V, always on and at least 40 amp. I used the original ABS connector on the fusebox.

B BROWN Ignition 12V, and at least 10 amp. This can be put through a switch to disable the EBCM if desired.

C GREY Variable Effort Steering – Unused
D WHITE Variable Effor Steering – Unused
E Not Used
F BLACK/WHITE Ground
G BLACK Ground

1 Not used
2 TAN/BLACK Delivered Torque connects to C150 - E (see below)
3 LIGHT GREEN Steering position – Unused
4 Not used
5 LIGHT GREEN/BLACK Lateral Accelerometer – Unused
6 LIGHT BLUE Stop lamp supply voltage connects to stop lamp switch and gets 12V when stop lamp operates. It also carries 4-5 volts and low power when the switch is not depressed as a bulb check
7 Not used
8 RED Left rear wheel sensor
9 BROWN Right rear wheel sensor
10 DARK GREEN Right front wheel sensor
11 LIGHT BLUE Left front wheel sensor
12 ORANGE/BLACK Requested torque signal connects to C150 - D
13 ORANGE/BLACK low reference – ties in to brake pressure sensor and connected to ground
14-16 Not used
17 BLACK Brake pressure sensor signal from brake pressure sensor on EBCM
18 LIGHT BLUE Steering position – Unused
19 DARK BLUE Yaw rate sensor – Unused
20 Not used
21 LIGHT BLUE Class 2 serial data connect to C150 – M (same wire that FFR has you connect to the OBDII connector)
22 BLACK Left rear wheel sensor
23 WHITE Right rear wheel sensor
24 TAN Right front wheel sensor
25 YELLOW Left front wheel sensor
26 Not used
27 GREY steering position 5V reference – connect to brake pressure sensor on EBCM
28 LIGHT BLUE steering position – Unused
29 Not used.

There is a good chance that you do not need to connect 13, 17 and 27 since I think they pertain to VSE and RSC but in trying to get mine working, I connected them anyway.

The EBCM will have Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC’s) because of the sensors that are not connected. You will not be able to see these codes unless your OBDII scanner can access modules beyond the PCM. See my post on cruise control for the scanner setup I used. The codes I got are:

C1241 Magnasteer error
C1282 Yaw sensor error
C1284 Lateral acceleration error
C1285 Lateral acceleration error
C1287 Steering position error
C1288 Steering position error

These codes do not disable ABS or Traction Control. If you have other codes, you need to check them out.
sambo likes this.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
The representations expressed are the representations and opinions of the clubcobra.com forum members and do not necessarily reflect the opinions and viewpoints of the site owners, moderators, Shelby American, any other replica manufacturer, Ford Motor Company. This website has been planned and developed by clubcobra.com and its forum members and should not be construed as being endorsed by Ford Motor Company, or Shelby American or any other manufacturer unless expressly noted by that entity. "Cobra" and the Cobra logo are registered trademarks for Ford Motor Co., Inc. clubcobra.com forum members agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyrighted material is owned by you. Although we do not and cannot review the messages posted and are not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we reserve the right to delete any message for any reason whatsoever. You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold us harmless with respect to any claim based upon transmission of your message(s). Thank you for visiting clubcobra.com. For full policy documentation refer to the following link: CC Policy