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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2022, 03:23 PM
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Quick question. Like others, I have the Moroso low profile oil pan on my 1st gen Coyote engine. Moroso advertises it as a 9.5 quart capacity. They claim I should add another 1/2 quart for a dry filter. That's 10 quarts total obviously. I followed their instructions and the dipstick reads above the "full" range. I called them and they instructed me that I need to re-calibrate a new fill mark to compensate for their pan. Didn't make sense to me. I feel that whatever the pan capacity is the dipstick tells the true story. Am I wrong? I don't know what dipstick was used at install. Is it Ford OEM, aftermarket, etc.? All I know is the dipstick has a plastic yellow ring on the top. Hopefully this helps for identification purposes.

Thanks in advance.
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Old 07-10-2022, 04:09 PM
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I do not own a coyote......but, then adding a new oil pan that is different from your old one, you have to calibrate your dipstick. Pan sumps and capacity vary. I just installed an Armondo's 9qt roadrace pan. Before installing the pan, the dipstick, my old one from Canton installs into the pan and not the block. Knowing dimensionally it is 9qts, I poured in 8qts of water and marked "ADD" then added the another qt and marked "Full". The new Marks were different to the old because the Canton pan was a deep T sump that's 8" long but deeper where the Armondo's pan T sump is 19" long but 2.5" less deep. The difference between Add and Full is 1/4". The water level was just at the pan baffle that covers the custom pickup and trap doors.

Last edited by NROTOXIN; 07-10-2022 at 04:17 PM..
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Old 07-10-2022, 04:47 PM
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That was long winded on my part. In your case where you have everything installed, if you trust the advertised capacity of the pan, the instructions to add for filter, talking to the manufacturer and have obviously started it then mark your dipstick where your level is for the new full.
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Old 07-10-2022, 05:08 PM
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tim,

I kinda got crosseyed trying to visualize the problem

Here's a thread, albeit kinda aged that describes one set of fixes for the Moroso pan: https://www.ffcars.com/threads/coyot...ch-oil.411226/

It sounds like the opposite of your problem if I read your original post correctly.

If the dipstick seats on the Coyote block, full should be full. If it seats on the pan, all bets are off unless it bottoms out on the baffle as described above.

Not having a Coyote it's hard to visualize, but I hope this gives a little help,

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Old 07-11-2022, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tims210 View Post
Quick question. Like others, I have the Moroso low profile oil pan on my 1st gen Coyote engine. Moroso advertises it as a 9.5 quart capacity. They claim I should add another 1/2 quart for a dry filter. That's 10 quarts total obviously. I followed their instructions and the dipstick reads above the "full" range. I called them and they instructed me that I need to re-calibrate a new fill mark to compensate for their pan. Didn't make sense to me. I feel that whatever the pan capacity is the dipstick tells the true story. Am I wrong? I don't know what dipstick was used at install. Is it Ford OEM, aftermarket, etc.? All I know is the dipstick has a plastic yellow ring on the top. Hopefully this helps for identification purposes.

Thanks in advance.

The dipstick does not indicate oil volume in the oil pan. It only indicates the oil level the engine manufacturer does not want you to exceed for windage purposes. When you exceed the normal fill level (above the full mark on the dipstick), the additional oil is whipped into an aerated foam by the rotating assembly. This foamy oil must lose its air bubbles before it is a suitable lubricant. You determine pan volume by how you build or buy your pan.

For the purpose of illustration, let's say you have an oil system that can move 5 gallons of oil per minute, you have an 8-quart oil pan, you have quart of oil in suspension in the crankcase at operating engine speeds, and it takes 1 minute for the oil to degas, leaving just lubricant to be recycled through the oil system; the following is what will happen.

You will cycle the oil in the pan 2.5 times in the first minute. You will deposit quart of aerated oil into the oil pan sump that will be recycled through the engine. The oil with the trapped air bubbles will begin a progressive erosion of the most highly loaded bearings in the engine first and progress up the bearing load lineup until non-aerated oil is once again available.

The bearing damage is like arsenic poisoning. Unless you overdose on the poison, it is a slow and cumulative process that takes place over time until it eventually extracts its final full measure of destruction.

Dry sump manufacturers work hard on the problem to protect their customers' engines — which is why we buy dry-sump oil systems. Sometimes a picture is worth the thousand words equivalence, so here is a pic of what oil looks like in an aerated vs non-aerated form. Click here => Aerated vs Non-Aerated Vid The video takes about 2 minutes but is visually quite informative.

The larger capacity oil pans do two very important things. The first is to provide a larger quantity of oil in the oil sump that will take longer to heat and therefore run cooler than a smaller quantity. The second is the use of baffling around the pickup and also between the rotating assembly and the oil in the sump.

The pickup baffling prevents uncovering the pickup and drawing air — which is bad for bearings. The second baffling is a windage tray or windage tray and crank scraper, which sheds oil off the crank and quickly gets it to the sump with a minimum of aeration by the rotating assembly. In the sump, you need a large enough sump capacity to allow the oil time to de-aerate before being drawn into the pump for recirculation to the various lubricated bearings.

The next video is not intended to encourage you to run dangerously low on oil. It does, however, show you two important dynamics. The first is how poorly many pans, OEM included, protect the oil from windage. The second is how much power is consumed whipping the oil that the rotating assembly can get at into a foamy mess.

For reasons I can't fathom, I can not find the Engine Masters session where they kept decreasing the oil volume in the pan. My memory tells me they went from 6 or 7 quarts down by a quart at a time and found best power at four maybe five quarts. This is not a endorsement or a suggestion to reduce your pan capacity to gain power. Their power imporvement was small but measurable — my memory wants to peg it at 5 or 10 HP.

What it is showing us that is significant is, the benefit of getting the sump oil level as far away from your rotating assembly as possible. The best way to do this is a windage tray and a crank scraper. A deep pan will also give you a cooler oil supply and provide additional time for existing oil to de-aerate.
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Last edited by eschaider; 07-11-2022 at 01:57 AM.. Reason: Fixed Broken Pic Links
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Old 07-11-2022, 07:31 AM
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That Factory Five thread is making me nervous now. I'm well aware of aeration which is what sparked my original concern. My dipstick goes into the block and not through the pan. I have to assume the stick is OEM since Moroso says it's what should be used. I figured they would include/sell their own stick if their pan required aftermarket. Based on that thread it seems there were problems with the OEM stick hitting the baffle which leads to an incorrect reading. Supposedly the issue was corrected by a redesign. I don't know what year that was done. My build was somewhere in the 2012 to 2013 range and not sure if I got the redesign. I don't know who to listen to now. Moroso, Ford, dipstick? Here's the link to the Moroso pan from their website with specs. The installation instructions don't seem to mention about fill levels and sticks.

https://www.moroso.com/ford-5-0-modu...-replica20570/
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Old 07-11-2022, 10:22 AM
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I've got a 2021 BDR (Order #1228) with a Gen 3 Coyote which came with a 9.5 qt Moroso Pan. When I changed the oil this Spring I put 9 qts of oil in it & the dipstick reads to the full mark. Unless something changes in the future I will continue to put 9.0 qts in it.
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Old 07-11-2022, 10:52 AM
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The important things to remember about the OEM full mark on the dipstick and in no particular order are the following;
  • It is only an indicator of how close to the rotating assembly the manufacturer (of the engine) wanted the oil level to get,
  • The presence of the mark and the oil level associated with that mark does not mean you can not benefit from a quality oil scraper and windage tray,
  • On OEM pans it is also an indicator of how full or short of full the pan is,
  • On aftermarket pans it should be referenced only as an indicator of how close to the crank the oil level is vs what the factory thinks it should be,
  • On aftermarket pans you can easily remark the dipstick but in so doing you would be defeating the original purpose — which is to mark the upper limit of how close to the crank the engine manufacturer wanted the oil level to get.

Not rocket science but none the less still important. You should decide what is important to you for your build and your engine.
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Last edited by eschaider; 07-24-2022 at 11:59 PM.. Reason: Spellng & Grammar
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Old 07-11-2022, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tims210 View Post
That Factory Five thread is making me nervous now. I'm well aware of aeration which is what sparked my original concern. My dipstick goes into the block and not through the pan. I have to assume the stick is OEM since Moroso says it's what should be used. I figured they would include/sell their own stick if their pan required aftermarket. Based on that thread it seems there were problems with the OEM stick hitting the baffle which leads to an incorrect reading. Supposedly the issue was corrected by a redesign. I don't know what year that was done. My build was somewhere in the 2012 to 2013 range and not sure if I got the redesign. I don't know who to listen to now. Moroso, Ford, dipstick? Here's the link to the Moroso pan from their website with specs. The installation instructions don't seem to mention about fill levels and sticks.

https://www.moroso.com/ford-5-0-modu...-replica20570/
That pan has a pretty good baffle but no windage tray or scraper. Here is the short way home;

With the pan off fill it with oil until the oil comes to the bottom of the baffle. Keep track of how much oil this required. When your engine is running you will need one more quart of oil to wet the inside of the engine. In addition to that you will have somewhere between a quart and quart of oil in suspension around the rotating assembly.

Lets put some additional numbers to the puzzle. Assume your pan can hold 8 quarts of oil up to the bottom of the baffle in the pan, you need to check this number with the pan off and pouring 8 qts of oil in the pan. Drain the pan put it back on the engine and put 8 qts of oil in. Insert the dipstick and check where this puts the oil level on the stick. It will likely be close to the factory mark if not the same.

Now add to that 1 quart to wet the insides of the engine and another quart for the oil that is suspended in the oil fog created by the rotating assembly and you have 9.5 quarts — same as Moroso's spec. Check the dipstick oil level one more time. This is the level you want to fill to with the engine off and cold.

Mark your dipstick for this oil level, it is your fill to oil level when doing an oil change or topping off the oil level in the pan. Viola! You are done.

p.s. Give some serious consideration to an oil scraper for the crank and a windage tray for the pan. An oil accumulator like Moroso or Accusump offers would not be a bad idea either. Under acceleration and braking you wil have the ability to uncover the oil pump pickup which will draw air into the oil system — which of course is the engine equivalent of arsenic for humans.
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Last edited by eschaider; 07-11-2022 at 04:08 PM.. Reason: Spelling & Grammar
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Old 07-11-2022, 09:18 PM
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"When your engine is running you will need one more quart of oil to wet the inside of the engine. In addition to that you will have somewhere between a quart and quart of oil in suspension around the rotating assembly."

I recently installed an Aviaid pan that has a 6 quart capacity. Prior to installation I filled it with 6 quarts of water to confirm that the fluid is just at the baffle. Am I to understand that an additional quart of oil is to be added to the stated capacity from the manufacturer to account for oil that is suspended in the engine when running, bringing the total capacity to 7 quarts?
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Old 07-12-2022, 11:38 AM
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I have another idea. I don't want to drop the pan if I don't have to. If I insert an oil extraction hose into the engine via the dipstick tube, I can feel for it hitting the top of the baffle. Once there I can try extracting. If oil comes out I would assume the oil level is above the baffle which is no good. Once that procedure is done I can measure again with the dipstick and create a new fill mark? Crazy idea?
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Old 07-12-2022, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
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I have another idea. I don't want to drop the pan if I don't have to. If I insert an oil extraction hose into the engine via the dipstick tube, I can feel for it hitting the top of the baffle. Once there I can try extracting. If oil comes out I would assume the oil level is above the baffle which is no good. Once that procedure is done I can measure again with the dipstick and create a new fill mark? Crazy idea?
Sounds interesting. Tube would need to be straight and have some decent rigidity to it (i.e. doesn't bend when it hits the baffle).
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Old 07-12-2022, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SBSerpent View Post
"When your engine is running you will need one more quart of oil to wet the inside of the engine. In addition to that you will have somewhere between a quart and quart of oil in suspension around the rotating assembly."

I recently installed an Aviaid pan that has a 6 quart capacity. Prior to installation I filled it with 6 quarts of water to confirm that the fluid is just at the baffle. Am I to understand that an additional quart of oil is to be added to the stated capacity from the manufacturer to account for oil that is suspended in the engine when running, bringing the total capacity to 7 quarts?
You are reading the tea leaves correctly SBSerpent. Between what is required to wet the engine internals and the oil in transit back to the pan you approximate a quart. A big block with more internal real estate will take a bit more to do the same job. The "extra" quart you add to the engine just brings the oil level in the sump back to where it was before it lost the oil to wet the engine internals.
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Old 07-18-2022, 09:43 AM
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I pulled the pan to inspect the baffle to see if I had the old style or the revision. It seems I have the old. Moroso is sending me the revised baffle. I attached pictures of mine and the revision for those who are curious. The first is mine and the revision is second. You'll notice the oval relief hole so it allows the dipstick to seat fully. The third shows how my dipstick scraped the pan causing the stick to arc and give a false reading. I also found that I do have a windage tray (last photo). It's a Moroso product that is required when installing their pan. now that I have the pan off I can experiment by pouring water until it comes to the bottom of the baffle and then count additional quarts for filter, oil in suspension, etc. By looking down the baffle I can't see how more than a few quarts can fit in there to not exceed the baffle height. Using eschaider's previous calculations, plus another 1/2 qt. for the Motorcraft filter, that would put me at around 5 quarts total. Doesn't add up. Maybe that baffle area holds more than the eye can see. I'll try and see what happens. Does the windage tray throw off any of the mentioned calculations?



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Old 07-18-2022, 01:38 PM
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That is the OEM Ford Coyote windage tray. The basic tray design is quite good and allows the use of the OEM oil pump and pickup. Even better, it looks like it will work nicely with the Moroso pan.

The sump might hold more than it looks like so be sure to test. Low profile pans with side sump expansions can be deceivingly larger than they appear. Also make a hole in the baffling for the dipstick. The windage tray will not affect pan capacity.
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Last edited by eschaider; 07-18-2022 at 01:49 PM.. Reason: additional thoughts
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Old 07-18-2022, 03:22 PM
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Interesting. I didn't know that these engines came with their own OEM windage trays. I misread Moroso's website. It seems they say THEIR windage tray is required for gen 3 engines and is only a replacement option for gen 1 & 2's. My mistake. I mentioned that they are sending me a replacement baffle with the relief hole. Moroso still insists that a level being over the top of the baffle is fine. Hopefully my test measurements equate to the proper OEM readings on the stick. Makes life easier. I know I'm being overly anal here but, like anyone, I don't want to be over or under oiled. We all know the consequences.
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Old 07-18-2022, 05:55 PM
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I have been questioning the same thing, I just eliminated my front oil cooler... I have a Gen 1 coyote with the remote oil filter relocation kit and Moroso pan.

I did a full drain, filled the filter and engine, total oil and much the same about 9.5 quarts total put it right in the middle of the full range on a stock dip stick... then started reading stories of 10 plus quarts are required which in my mind would put me in the lower rotating assembly.

My motor and oil pan all went through FFR and Forte in 2013 during the discovery of the Moroso oil pan windage tray issue with no hole, a new oil pan was supplied by Moroso at no charge.

I actually reached out to Mike Forte last week to ask oil volume and he just wanted to sell me a new oil pan though I have the updated pan.

I am sticking with the 9.5 quarts as it puts me at the right level and no issues so far... until I hear otherwise
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Old 07-19-2022, 12:08 AM
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When you have that particular windage tray between the crank and the pan, it goes a long way to help in limiting the amount of oil the crank can whip up from the pan. if your six or seven quart fill takes you a bit over the baffle in the pan it probably doesn't matter much. When the engine is running, that black plastic windage does a pretty good job of protecting the oil in the pan.
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Old 07-19-2022, 02:05 PM
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Does anyone know if that windage tray has a removable gasket or is it integrated in it as one piece? I'm supposed to run a small bead of RTV gasket maker at the four corners between the gasket and pan per Moroso. I'd rather get a new gasket if that was already done at install. Don't want to start scraping off old RTV and miss a piece that could wind up in the engine. I'm getting conflicting info online from retail sites.

Last edited by tims210; 07-19-2022 at 02:08 PM.. Reason: misspelling
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Old 07-20-2022, 02:47 AM
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It uses an integrated o-ring style gasket.
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