Bad Starter

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by davids2toys

Patrick,
Concerning this wire. I read somewhere else in the from that you installed another ground wire from the manifold to this same location as the black wire. Was that in addition to the black wire or instead?
As far as doing this test, was that with the car running and progressively turning on all the accessories one by one and you watch your amperage grow the more you turned on.
OK,. so I only have a multi-meter, no inductive ammeter. Can I just break the connection and run it thru the multimeter to get the reading?
Thanks...Dave

That strap was a supplemental ground that was in addition to the black ERA ground wire. Yes, I turned on my lights and fans and then measured the current running through that wire and it seemed a bit high. You can not just disconnect the wire and run it in series with your multimeter unless you have a very special multimeter that will measure higher amperage. Most multimeters can only measure very tiny amounts of current that way.

[RICK LAKE]

Large Arbor Phil if you are having starter problems and have a good battery and starter here's the problem with eating teeth on the flywheel
I had the same problem with a shelby block motor, 3 choices
I don't know which bellhousing you have but if it's a lake wood your mini starter doesn't have enough extendion for full engagement. Does your bell housing have a block protector plate? If yes You need to remove where the starter goes through the hole area and have the starter mount to the bell housing directly. I sabre sawed mine with a metal blade. The thing with this is checking the starter to make sure it is not hitting or rubbing on the block. I had to grind a little of the block to clear this too. Also and this is BIG, Make sure the bellhousing is centered on the block. Alot of problems happen from this not being done. This includes Stock bellhousing and Quicktime or any other ones. Mine with .038" out. After 3 hours of trimming and adjusting I Got it down to .003" max spec is about .005-.007" out of center.I have found that allen head bolt on the blind side of the starter work the best.
Once we know we have the starter mounted deeper for more full contact we need to look at the air gap between the teeth of starter and flywheel. You want about.035". The easy way is to just use the flywheel without the clutch and ingage just the soleniod of the motor. A large paper clip is the correct thickness. You should be able to stick this between the 2 teeth. You don't have to be perfect but in the ball park. The wider the gap the more stress on the teeth of the flywheel. This job is a pain in the A$$. As for the flywheel, you can have just the teeth replace. If the flywheel has been worked hard with cracks and burnt marks, replace it.
I starter with a Tilton starter and worn out 2 drives before finding out what was causing this failure. It's a pain in the butt to jump start the car.
Other side note, if you are running a Lakewood bell housing and a GM input shaft trans, measure the depth of the input to the back of the block. In some cases you have to remove .280" off where the tip goes into the bushing or bearing in the back of the crankshaft. IF you don't you WILL wear out the thrust bearing permaturily. The is a small side note in the instructions from Lake wood on this for FE motors. Not sure about other Ford motors.
The other fix is to go old style starter and hope you have a strong one and heavy cables to handle the 150-250 amp draw on starting the motor. The OEM starters can be a pain in the butt when they are heat soaked for a long drive and will barely crank the motor over. This is the main reason for the mini gear reduction starters and they draw only 70-120 amps.
The last choice is to have the starter mounting surface machined about .250" and this will give you the added extension on the drive to give you almost a full contact area and stop breaking the teeth on the flywheel. Sammy here on CC has done this and it worked good. The only thing a don't like is the fact of a thin mounting surface with 3 small bolts to hold and control the torque twist when starting the motor. If you have a problem down the road with this starter, need to have it machined again to fit and work correctly. This is the best info I have on this problem. Good luck Rick L.

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by patrickt

That strap was a supplemental ground that was in addition to the black ERA ground wire. Yes, I turned on my lights and fans and then measured the current running through that wire and it seemed a bit high. You can not just disconnect the wire and run it in series with your multimeter unless you have a very special multimeter that will measure higher amperage. Most multimeters can only measure very tiny amounts of current that way.

Oh that sucks!
So I need this inductive type to measure higher amps? I think my multi-meter is supposed to measure 10 amps unfused.
So was this with the car running or not running?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by davids2toys

Oh that sucks!
So I need this inductive type to measure higher amps? I think my multi-meter is supposed to measure 10 amps unfused.
So was this with the car running or not running?

Both with the engine running and not running -- for this it doesn't make a difference. With the negative battery cable going to the passenger side head, and the lights and fans having their negative path via the frame, the majority of the current has to run through that one black wire (or something not as good, like motor mounts, brake components, etc.) Adding supplementary grounds, one a strap from the intake manifold to a bolt on the firewall, and the second was a beautifully crafted 4 gauge wire, with crimped and torch soldered ends, that goes from the negative terminal of the battery to the frame itself. Doing all of that brought the current that was running through that little black wire down to one third of what it originally was. And, it could have just been my imagination, but the starter seemed to crank better as well.

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Both with the engine running and not running -- for this it doesn't make a difference. With the negative battery cable going to the passenger side head, and the lights and fans having their negative path via the frame, the majority of the current has to run through that one black wire (or something not as good, like motor mounts, brake components, etc.) Adding supplementary grounds, one a strap from the intake manifold to a bolt on the firewall, and the second was a beautifully crafted 4 gauge wire, with crimped and torch soldered ends, that goes from the negative terminal of the battery to the frame itself. Doing all of that brought the current that was running through that little black wire down to one third of what it originally was. And, it could have just been my imagination, but the starter seemed to crank better as well.

OK, good info. I saw your thread with the On the 04 neg lead. I would like to do the same, only in more flexible heavy braid.
I have been trying to learn about clamp meters that measure DC amp all afternoon. There is a plethora of junk out there. Do you have a good inexpensive one you could recommend?
Dave

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by davids2toys

OK, good info. I saw your thread with the On the 04 neg lead. I would like to do the same, only in more flexible heavy braid.
I have been trying to learn about clamp meters that measure DC amp all afternoon. There is a plethora of junk out there. Do you have a good inexpensive one you could recommend?
Dave

Sixty bucks is about as low as I can find one with decent accuracy. Craftsman Clamp On AC/DC Meter

[Dominik]

You might want to connect a cable direct from the negative battery terminal to the starter. This is a place where I don't save weight. I use 50 square welder cable. Not sure how that converts into gauge thickness in the US of A.

To check for losses, use a jumper cable - also with a decent area/cable size ("Diesel" engine jumper cable) from your Battery to starter.

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by Dominik

You might want to connect a cable direct from the negative battery terminal to the starter. This is a place where I don't save weight. I use 50 square welder cable. Not sure how that converts into gauge thickness in the US of A.

To check for losses, use a jumper cable - also with a decent area/cable size ("Diesel" engine jumper cable) from your Battery to starter.

I was just reading about this last night on another car forum while I was research grounding procedures and straps.
These guys were some real wizards for sure. They said the best way to run the grounds are to go from the BAT directly to a bolt near the starter. From there, go to the frame. They gave some real good reasons why not to go to the frame first from the NEG on the BAT like our ERA cars

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Sixty bucks is about as low as I can find one with decent accuracy. Craftsman Clamp On AC/DC Meter

Thanks Pat

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by patrickt

That strap was a supplemental ground that was in addition to the black ERA ground wire. Yes, I turned on my lights and fans and then measured the current running through that wire and it seemed a bit high. You can not just disconnect the wire and run it in series with your multimeter unless you have a very special multimeter that will measure higher amperage. Most multimeters can only measure very tiny amounts of current that way.

That braided strap had to have two different ends. The one for the firewall is only 1/4', the manifold bolts are way bigger requiring a bigger eyelet. Do you recall where you got the cable?. I see a lot of companies sell cables in bulk, but I cant find much info on putting on your own custom terminals.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by davids2toys

That braided strap had to have two different ends. The one for the firewall is only 1/4', the manifold bolts are way bigger requiring a bigger eyelet. Do you recall where you got the cable?. I see a lot of companies sell cables in bulk, but I cant find much info on putting on your own custom terminals.

It was a Dorman "HELP" Grounding Strap that I bought at Auto Zone.

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by patrickt

That strap was a supplemental ground that was in addition to the black ERA ground wire. Yes, I turned on my lights and fans and then measured the current running through that wire and it seemed a bit high. You can not just disconnect the wire and run it in series with your multimeter unless you have a very special multimeter that will measure higher amperage. Most multimeters can only measure very tiny amounts of current that way.

Thanks for the strap info..I will check them out and see what they have.
I borrowed a friends big Snap on Amp reading tool, here is a pic.
After I figure it out I started testing all kinds of stuff. At first I could not get it to work.. but when I put it across a few fuses and got readings, I went back to the wire. Seems the key has to be on to get a reading on the wire, but not on the fuses. With the big snap on gauge I got a little less than 2 amps with the wipers, high beams, and fan on. No horn, blinkers or brake lights After I realized I would not blow my multi-meter I did it with that and the most I got was .07 ish, it was jumping around a little. I don't know why the discrepancy between the two gages?
What would you consider to be normal here? I'm thinking nothing should be running thru that wire?

[patrickt]

You can not test current by putting on a parallel connection (meaning you just touch the tool's clips to two points on a wire that is still hooked up). You have to disconnect the wire you are testing for current and then attach the tool's lead in series in order to measure amperage. That's the advantage of an inductive ammeter, you don't have to disconnect anything. You just clamp the meter around the wire and take your reading.