427 FE vs 351w, advantages?

[cobrarkc]

Before we get the popcorn out, I just have to say one thing about weight. All the FE guys talk about aluminum heads, intakes and water pumps making them close to a small block weight. How many SBF's do you think don't have the same things on them which makes them lighter still. Like what has been said before, if you are going for originality sake go for the FE, if you don't care get the most bang for your buck. The limiting factor for FE's are the heads so they need the extra cubes to make the power. You can build an aftermaket block SBF to 460ci and use the Austrialian CHI heads and make the same HP# as an FE and have money left over. I do think the best choice for a Kirkham would be the FE though.

[lovehamr]

Yup, "Popular Hotchevying" that's where I get all my engine info................

[Jerry Clayton]

CobraEd

Its 28 inch oz------

The Scat forged 351 wINDSOR 4 and 4.125 cranks weigh 58#
I don't have an FE crank to weigh but most of the big block cranks with BBC 2.100 rod and no center counter weights (same as stock) weigh 59 lbs

I have 9 balance cards on these engines and the heaviest bob weight back in late 70s for a 427 tunnel port with Ford 4.250 crank was 2443 grams
A Cleveland from 1983 bobweight stock stroke 2212 grams
Stroked Cleveland 2010 with all modern lite weight stuff 1804 grams
Stroked Wiindsor 427 last year 1845
370 windsor 2008 1829 grams351 windsor lite piston assy 2007 1810 grams
Dart 427 windsor 2007 at 1836 grams
fe 428 stock crank in 2009 2270 grams

Looking for the card on a 427 fe stroked to 482----

[Jerry Clayton]

Rick Lake

The Lemans rods weighted aprox 830 grams

[CobraEd]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

Rick Lake

The Lemans rods weighted aprox 830 grams

Windsor rods appear to be in the mid 600 gram range:

http://www.hitech-industries.com/CONNECTINGROD1.HTML


.

[RICK LAKE]

Windsor rods can weight from 520-530 for a 260 motor and they get heavier until you hit the trans-am motor with 750 grams. stock 351 is about 695 to 710. These number also depend on fasteners.
FE motor range from 352 with about 700 grams to over 1,000 grams for the nascar rods. I have a box set of lemans rods that weight is 840 with out arp bolts in them, stock from ford. With blueprinting you can get them down to under 800 grams and still be safe to 6,500 rpms. Rick L.

[Avmaviator]

I'm going with an FE engine :-) I have been talking to Brent and he has put a nice package together. Anybody here with some of his engines?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Avmaviator

I'm going with an FE engine :-) I have been talking to Brent and he has put a nice package together. Anybody here with some of his engines?

He does fine work. Of course, you have to push him a little if you'd like to have a solid flat tappet in that FE.

[blykins]

Avmaviator,

I would be happy to give you a list of references....some have even bought more than one from me.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by Avmaviator

I'm going with an FE engine :-) I have been talking to Brent and he has put a nice package together. Anybody here with some of his engines?

I can't vouch for his engines but I can tell you he gives the best clutch I've ever had. Seriously, check his engine references but I can tell you he knows his stuff and he stands behind what he sells.

Originally Posted by patrickt

He does fine work. Of course, you have to push him a little if you'd like to have a solid flat tappet in that FE.

Now Brent, Avmaviator will know all about the reliability of Lycoming and Continental engines with solid lifters so don't be trying that hydraulic lifter spiel on him.

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by Avmaviator

I'm going with an FE engine :-) I have been talking to Brent and he has put a nice package together. Anybody here with some of his engines?

Avmaviator - very much the correct decision to go 'FE' (IMO)
This is not a small block Ford vs big block Ford question; it's a question of what engine should you put into a Kirkham 427-bodied replica.
And if it had been deemed OK to install a small block, then what about a 4.6 Mustang, or a Coyote? Or a V6?
OK, time to stop.
Cheers!
Glen

[Stentor]

Originally Posted by Avmaviator

I'm going with an FE engine :-)

Good call--that's the right choice for a Kirkham.

Now you need to determine if you want an aluminum or iron block, how much HP and TQ you want, how many cubic inches, and whether you want a single 4 BBL carb, double "4s", webers, or fuel injection.

[Learjockey1]

Originally Posted by Stentor

Good call--that's the right choice for a Kirkham.

Now you need to determine if you want an aluminum or iron block, how much HP and TQ you want, how many cubic inches, and whether you want a single 4 BBL carb, double "4s", webers, or fuel injection.

I always remember the first 427 car I viewed about 35 years ago. When the hood opened, I saw one big engine, tall pent-roof valve covers, two fours, no further explanations were required.

When you open the hood for someone, just be quiet and let them relish the experiance.

[RodKnock]

Can we spill the beans on details of this FE?

[Excaliber]

I don't now and have never bought the argument that once you start using modern suspesnsion, brakes, etc. etc. you've upset the apple cart and so now it's OK to run whatever modern motor you like as well.

It's NOT OK, in my opinion. You can tweek the the suspension and play with all kinds of variables through out the car, but the "motor" is the "soul". SOME Cobras demand certain motor's, other's not so much. ERA 427? Gotta be FE based, that's just the way it is. Kirkham, same thing. FFR? While small blocks are the rule of thumb, who knows what you might find lurking under the hood on any given car, no limits. FFR is pretty much a "no limits" car in all regards. Spice up the interior, go for some custom chrome wheels, heck, add a wing and some neon lights if you want. That doesn't make FFR good or bad, it's just a reality check.

Now if you start going all "custom look" stuff on a Kirkham and add red crushed velvet interior, chrome wheels and a V6, your going to look like the fool you are.

Changing the suspension is one thing, changing the interior and messing with the motor choice is a whole 'nother can of worms!

[Jerry Clayton]

Almost all the cranks on the market now will either use the sbc or bbc rod journal size and various lengths---I checked over 20 sets this morning of the rods for current builds in the shop here---some scat and the others Callies Compstar or Ultra (sorry didn't check any of the Lunaties) and various lengths---The Ford 302 style was lightest at mid 500 wts , small chev journal for small blocks most around 620 ( 6.0 length) and the BBC journal of various lengths would average around low 800 grams(814-835)

The cranks will weigh from high 50s(56-58 to low 70s (4.750 stroke))

biggest weight differances are in the piston/pin area because a short ch with real short/thin wall pin will vary drasticlly between the 4.0 and the 4.780 bores sizes.

the Honda rod sizes are lighter but we aren't seeing many of them for any street type engines and I didn't currently have any to weigh.

And the weight of the flywheel/clutch and harmonic dampner will be more significant that a few grams of piston weight. I have recently began to weight the cranks with the bob weights on them for some data but mostly to see how hard I'm working.

[olddog]

A 100 grams difference times 8 pistons is 800 grams - divided by 454 g/lb and its darns near 2 pounds.

I never weighed them before, but my gut tells me that an entire rotating assembly (damper, flywheel, crank, rods, pistons, wrist pins, and rings) of an FE has to be significantly more than a Windsor. I know you can buy light weight stuff - especially if you have deep pockets. So an apples to apples comparison is appropriate.

[CobraEd]

Originally Posted by olddog

A 100 grams difference times 8 pistons is 800 grams - divided by 454 g/lb and its darns near 2 pounds.

I never weighed them before, but my gut tells me that an entire rotating assembly (damper, flywheel, crank, rods, pistons, wrist pins, and rings) of an FE has to be significantly more than a Windsor. I know you can buy light weight stuff - especially if you have deep pockets. So an apples to apples comparison is appropriate.

My point exactly.


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[Barry_R]

I build as many FEs as about anybody by now. And we've done a bunch of small blocks.

The power will be determined by cylinder heads and displacement - and little else. I think I've proven that is numerous Engine Masters Challenge entries where my FE package has always been very competitive with the Cleveland headed entries and has beaten the occassional rare inline Windsor headed entry.

The cosmetics are where the FE entry wins. These cars are rarely true race pieces where the last increment of weight and power take precedence over everything else. They are purchased for the elusive "cool factor" - the FE simply looks correct. It's the same reason a Harley has a V-twin, the reason a Rolex is cooler than a Timex even if both keep time.

While limitations were there in the past, there are essentially no limits in performance for an FE build these days.

FE stroker cranks run 67-70 pounds, with bobweights in the 2200s. I have had some really trick lightweight stuff - destroked with 2.00" journals - that dipped into the 1800s. The FE will come in around 100 pounds heavier than a Windsor.

A Camry will be a more reliable and comfortable mode of transportation. But who cares?

[Jerry Clayton]

But who cares??

I'd rather be too hot, too cold or too wet in a Cobra than comfortable in any stinkin Cambry!!!!!!