What's the appeal of an aluminum engine block?

[lippy]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

And if we're going to be seen at Starbucks, we take our Pinarello bicycles anyway.

You must live in Woodside.

[rodneym]

Originally Posted by blykins

If the Cup guys can go 200 mph at 9500 with a cast iron block, you guys can drive 5 miles to Starbucks without nosing over and missing your turn......

That is freakin' funny.
A little disdain for your customers is healthy.
And you're in good company

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by rodneym

That is freakin' funny.
A little disdain for your customers is healthy.
And you're in good company

I've always thought there was something funny about the "alloy" guys. I think we should exclude them whenever possible.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by rodneym

That is freakin' funny.
A little disdain for your customers is healthy.
And you're in good company

It was tongue in cheek, but I've known a lot of you for years and feel like I can take a jab every now and then.

Plus I know how a lot of these cars are used. The first engine I ever delivered ended up in a Hurricane Cobra. 10 years later it had 4000 miles on it.

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by blykins

I would think that a $$$$ "aftermarket" block would be an ego-booster. Not solely focused on aluminum.

If the Cup guys can go 200 mph at 9500 with a cast iron block, you guys can drive 5 miles to Starbucks without nosing over and missing your turn......

I believe nascar uses compact graphite iron blocks not cast iron. They are stronger than cast but lighter. They get a new engine every 1000 miles. So it makes sense to use iron. Formula 1 uses aluminum but those engines are on a different planet than a nascar motor.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

I believe nascar uses compact graphite iron blocks not cast iron. They are stronger than cast but lighter. They get a new engine every 1000 miles. So it makes sense to use iron. Formula 1 uses aluminum but those engines are on a different planet than a nascar motor.

Yes sir, that is correct, but that just changed with the newest generation of FR9 engines.

Up until a few years ago, they were all cast iron blocks.

Those stupid CGI FR9 blocks are like $13k a piece.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by blykins

If the Cup guys can go 200 mph at 9500 with a cast iron block, you guys can drive 5 miles to Starbucks without nosing over and missing your turn......

By that account, may as well take a Prius.

...and by the way, 5miles to Starbucks is about as far as I can go on a tank anyway, but it's the best 5miles I get!

[Barry_R]

Its been a long time since I posted here - "life" has kept me a bit busy...

I can back up a few statements. Nobody has any aluminum blocks. I have not seen one shipped for months. I get promises - and unfortunately have repeated them to customers - and then I get no parts. If there were an alternate I would go to another supplier. But out of the FE block suppliers - Side Oiler Garage (former Genesis), Pond, Shelby, Dove, BBM - none of them have a block to ship. I have already paid one of those guys for five blocks in advance and received nothing in return.

We have a vacuum impregnation facility here in the Detroit area - out by the airport. Very nice guy who is justifiably proud of his services. Every single aluminum block I do will get impregnated from now on (Bill - your's was done too) after I had an issue a few years ago. The cost is added into the build, but I do not call it out because customer get nervous about a process the might not understand. This place does a bunch of military and OEM transmission stuff.

The weight savings is nice and I can fully understand the desire. The blocks themselves seem to be consistently inconsistent in quality. I have always been able to build them into good engines but they are always a challenge and I kind of agree with the sentiment - they should cost 20% more for labor because of the extra effort required. Every single fastener needs to be retightened after they run - the aluminum growth seems to loosen them all up. They leak - probably for the same reason. I suspect that the OEMs use better alloy and a much more sophisticated process for fasteners, seals and gaskets to avoid these problems.

The 427 stuff is definitely cool - given the choice I would prefer to build an iron block every time. We pretty much never have any issues with 390 based 445 builds, and we do them at a rate of two or three per month.

[lippy]

Guys that buy Cobras want something extreme. You don't *need* anything nearly that fast. These cars would be fast with iron blocks or even SBCs. But if you're gonna build or buy something that's totally extreme, you might as well do all the little things that add up, and that make it a fun project. An Al block and saving 125# fall into that category. For me it was a difference of maybe $500-600. The only thing that would give me pause if I were to do it again is that the pan on this engine has never sealed well, despite some pretty extreme measures. I think it would be better with an iron block. But it's a relatively small issue.

[Detroit Bill]

It's pretty clear the nature of a cobra build leads the buyer in many cases to aluminum. Next question why go to 482? Same as the block because you can!

[blykins]

You could have went to 496 without any more expense.... Could have also went to 527 with a Shelby block. Could go higher than that with a Shelby block (or cast iron Pond block) and a custom crank.

rodneym, I love you too.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by blykins

rodneym, I love you too.

You know, given our current political environment, I'd ixnay on the ove-lay.

[jhv48]

Sheesh, you guys, this isn't Brokeback Mountain.

Get a room!

Not that there's anything wrong with it!!

[Three Peaks]

Funny the Sprint cup guys come up in this conversation. Don't those guys run (gasp) small blocks?

Bob

[blykins]

Yeah, but to be fair, it's because of the rules.

[Large Arbor]

As I said earlier, my car had the Danbury built Shelby aluminum block when I built it.

On other points, at some point HP's are just wasted on the tires. I love the way my car, drives, and handles. The oil leaks are down to valve covers now that the intake is sealed with the TA 31 stuff.

I have aluminum block, heads, intake, water pump and love it all (except for the polishing and cleaning). I also love the FE engines and get complements from the older guys on it. Much of the younger crowd doesn't even know what an FE is.

I bought the car thinking it had a better value since it was all aluminum. Some folks prefer it.

Aren't all FE engines getting a little harder to find?

Phil

[blykins]

352 and 390 blocks are still pretty plentiful. 427's and 428's are getting a little harder to find, but they're still out there.

Since the aftermarket stash has been dried up this year, I've done quite a few factory block builds.

[eschaider]

My suspicion is the power differences whichever way they cut are non starters because our cars are so light to start with, as others have already mentioned.

If you do not do your own engine builds once the engine is in the car, iron or aluminum is not likely to make a measurable difference. If you do, do your own builds I would rather wrestle with aluminum pieces than iron pieces.

When you go to sell your car the buyer and market will probably place a premium on the aluminum bullet rather than the iron equivalent. Premiums are real interesting critters, most people recognize them and why they are charged. Many fewer buyers are willing to pay for them.

In the end like most choices on these cars it becomes a personal decision, it is not a rational decision. What do you want for your toy?

As an aside doesn't BBM offer an aluminum block version of the FE?


Ed

[olddog]

I think the issues you have with aluminum FE engines is partly the size. The bigger the part the more thermal expansion you have to deal with. In the case of aluminum, bigger is not better. On a cold day you have almost zero clearance in your bearings.

Secondly you are dealing with a replaceable sleeve design. Go talk to the diesel builders and see what they have to say. I don't think they are begging for aluminum blocks. They do deal with sleeves moving, and they know some things.

I read many years ago how Ford was casting the sleeves into the 4.6 modular blocks. The outer surface of the sleeve is knurled or grooved and the molten aluminum is cast around them. There is no way for the sleeve to move it is trapped. It makes replacing them difficult. You have to bore it out until the wall is paper thin. Then bend it until it comes out. Certainly design plays a roll.

One of the properties of aluminum is that when a force is applied to it, it slowly creeps over time. That is why you torque lugs down on aluminum wire once. It would tighten more, if you re-torqued them yearly. Eventually you would pinch the wire off. There are hug differences in different grades of aluminum. I'm not certain that the people who are designing aluminum blocks are choosing the right grade for the design.

I have been told porosity in aluminum has to do with humidity. It cannot be cast with humidity above a certain amount. GM had problems with porosity in the Cadillac north star for years. If GM fought it, it isn't simple to do.

I think aluminum and replaceable sleeves on a large engine is challenging to do right.

You might want to talk with Barry, Craft, and some of the other builders. Together all of you may be able to impact what the block manufactures are doing. The solution to your problem is at the manufacturers. It is not uncommon for users of a product to partner with the supplier to resolve issues. When all the players have a seat at the table, better decisions are are usually made.

[Dominik]

In the 90s I used a (old!) Chevy 4.44" block in my car. PITA... Granted, it was old and showed weaknesses. I would never offer such engine for a customer, unless you want to get married to him.

As for the weight "in the front", most Cobras have a weight distribution of 50/50. When I replaced the alu motor with a a cast iron one, I had to drop the front and rear suspension equally.

The ally blcok cools better. Probably too good for street use, even on German Autobahn.

A 454 cui Small Block with aluminium heads would be a sensible compromise. Or, for FE look a 390 stroker.