Keith Craft Challenge IS ON!

[JBAIRD]

I have spoken with Keith about this hoopla that the Doubting Thomas's of the Cobra world have started. He decided to put his money where his advertised HP figures are. We will challenge anyone out there who builds these FE's to a build off . All builders will use the same block. Bore and stroke combo will be chosen by all agreeing to enter. Heads will be Edlebrock Performers with everyone using the same size valve. Pump gas(10.8:1) verifiable. Heads will be CC'd after dyno pulls and a winner is declared. Same intake will be used,same rod and whatever crank you want as long as it is thesame stroke. Keith Has just purchased the latest Dynomometer out and will be taking the place of the old one in a couple of weeks. All dyno pulls will be done on this new machine at Keiths Shop in Arkansas. Everyone welcome!! The Budget will be $16,000.00. This will probably be in a Shelby Aluminum Block. The one who loses the competetion will pay the build price to the winning motor. Now lets see some takers!! Gasholes, Put up or shut up!! The challenge is real and has been issued. Drew Baird for Keith Craft Motorsports. Plano, Texas.

[bmalone]

Nicely worded.

In case you didn't notice, none of us operate a facility that builds engines. Does that mean we are disqualified?

[rdorman]

That would be a very cool event to attend!
Rick

[Gary Morris]

I need milk and cookies for this thread.....should be interesting indeed!

Gary

[Jamo]

Simple question: Why not have a neutral party with a dyno simply run one of your motors? Allow a 1-2% margin of error for differences in dynos, temp, etc.

Or is that too easy?

[rdorman]

That IS a simple question. So why not?
Rick

[ff2_emtb]

I agree with Jamo. No offense to Keith and all but lets face it, his dyno, his shop etc etc...Having a neutral third party do the testing would also keep the "well it was his dyno so he must have done something blah blah blah" crap from happening. Might I suggest that maybe someone contact maybe Hot Rod, Car Craft, or one of the other mags and see if they might be interested in this little project.

T.

[Gary Morris]

I think that as long as all engines are run on the same dyno what difference does it make who's dyno it is?

Gary

[ENTDOC]

It has to do more with appearances than anything else.If it is your dyno then some folks will doubt the validity of the outcome.I have no reason to doubt Keith,in fact I had chosen him to build my 427 shelby until I found my present motor,however it would seem easier to just send one of his motors to a neutral party and verify the dyno numbers.Again ,I do not think that is actually needed but it seems to be important to him to validate his claims;then the case is closed. chuck

[Cracker]

The irony. I have a call into Keith to propose my suggestion below but have not heard back and then this thread pops up.

I doubt anyone going to take that risk but I have a non-biased solution.

This very discussion was brought up earlier today after I posted a "why is KCR being single out reply". There is a much simpler method of coming to a conclusion. I have a side-oiler that was just dynoed in August using the best parts from Jessel's rockers to JE pistons and runs 11:1 compression. It is a .17 over standard bore with stock LeMans crank (3.781) using the Edelbrock Performer RPM heads and port matched Victor 427 Single plane intake. The cam is a .590 lift solid lifter Crower unit with a lift of 260/255 @ .50. This motor dynoed at Garry Grimes (his father Hoyt is a NHRA Hall of Fame drag racer and still active in builds) shop in Atlanta in August and produced 543 Hp @6,800 rpms & 496 lbs trq. at 5,300. Since I installed the another motor to allow the buyer to experience it prior to purchase, my 427 is out and ready for a dyno. All things being equal I'll provide my heads to Keith for his CNC work and have it dynoed back at Grimes in Atlanta. I have all previous dyno sheets available and should provide a solid platform for what Keith can do to heads and their impact on performace gains.

[427Aggie]

I think if you look at the line of questioning that Turk has brought out on the Lounge he states that there are other engine builders on the site that are vendors that are upset that Keith is building such High and reliable HP motors. Here is the thread.

http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/show...threadid=50295

Personally the dyno at a non partial shop is a great idea...but I do believe that since we have people that are partial to engine builders they should do as those of us here locally have done and talk to the builders to step up to the plate...we convinced Keith to do this. So lets not be quick to jump and say "you are full of crap"

Those of us that support a person full bore want others to see what we see. There are people not local to Dallas that can put a car with a KC motor in it on a chasis dyno...we have done that here so you have 2 completely different dyno's that are producing consistent results.

Who will be the first builder into the challenge? and where is an impartial engine dyno we can run on?

Matt

[wilf leek]

Tony - interesting proposal.

Why not do a "before and after" dyno pull?

i.e. dyno your engine just as it is at KCR, then let KCR do the head work and see what gain can be made?

I assume, someone correct me if I am wrong, that the "secret" is in the porting, (since I can see little else significantly different in the engine specs that have been given previously) so by following the above route, KCR could demonstrate their art very well???

One day I WILL want an FE, I am very interested to see what any particular builder can do.

[Jamo]

Tony, I think that's extremely gracious, but if I were Keith, I'd want the opportunity of doing the complete build.

Matt...Keith's the only one posting numbers.

Too many variables to work out...note Hudgens' frustrations trying to get a runoff of the various Cobras.

Maybe one of the motors that Keith's already posted numbers for that hasn't found its way into a car yet?

[rdorman]

Originally posted by Jamo


Maybe one of the motors that Keith's already posted numbers for that hasn't found its way into a car yet?

Seems to me this has the most merit. Just let Keith dyno one of his big number engines on his dyno and then run it on a third party dyno. It is my understanding that there is difference from one dyno to another.

If Keith has built a better mouse trap, more power to him (both puns intended). I have no personal belief or disbelief either way. It would just be nice to see the conjecture put to rest. From a business standpoint Keith, I think that your engines being proven in this way would be a big plus in your corner.

Rick

[Dave Rodak]

Originally posted by Jamo


Simple question: Why not have a neutral party with a dyno simply run one of your motors? Allow a 1-2% margin of error for differences in dynos, temp, etc.

Or is that too easy?

Is the point of this exercise to determine who has the most accurate dyno or who can build & dyno tune the most hp on an engine?

I'm certain all builders have their own "secret tricks". Just doing a set of heads or using a "neutral" dyno won't display the overall differences. If all the builders build a complete engine and then run & dyno tune it on the same dyno, how can there be any arguments? Keith's dyno has been questioned so let's see what everyone else can make on his dyno.

[Tom Kirkham]

Dear Drew,

I would love to see this shoot out.

Some thoughts to keep the shoot out realistic.

In the interest of engine life, limit the valve lift to maybe .600 inches. How realistic is it for the winning engine to have a full on roller cam with so much lift that the engine requires constant maintenance? For this same reason I would limit the cam shaft to a solid, hydraulic, or maybe a hydraulic roller. Also to make this shoot out more realistic limit the RPMs to 6,500.

I think the E-brock Performer RPM head (6008) is a more appropriate head for this shoot out. I would also allow the Shelby head. Why restrict the valve size? This is an easy mod for the money. I think the old iron tunnel ports and high risers but not SOHC should also be allowed.

The dyno runs be made using a real Cobra exhaust system with and with out mufflers.

I would also like to see a maximum engine height rule to limit the use of tunnel rams. I think that the engine should be capable of fitting under the hood of a Cobra. I would also like to see this event limited to a single carb. But dual fours sure look nice.

No nitrous oxide, or supercharging.

Since this is to represent a street engine, the winner should be based on “area under the curve” instead of peak power.

Why have the “loser” pay for another engine builders build? Whoever the engine builder is will have invested a lot of money just to be to the shoot out. The publicity alone will make the event worth winning.

[Jamo]

With all due respect, Tom...this is going to head down the same path as the Hudgens' proposal regarding Cobras...some folks have a different way of doing things. You build cars for big blocks and originality, Hudgens builds them for small blocks, etc.

Dave, I agree there may be differences in dynos, temps, etc. That's why I suggested a reasonable margin of error. I sure hope various calibrated dynos are not that far off from each other.

A 10-20 horsepower or foot pounds difference is certainly understandable.

Maybe a shootout in the future would be a good thing, but I surely would think a fairly quick run of the same motor on two different calibrated dynos would resolve any doubts in the near term.

KISS...Keep It Simple, Stupid (an approach, not a dig at anyone).

Hey, not trying to pressure anyone. If Drew and Keith don't want to do it to resolve questions about what they post, it is certainly understandable. No matter what, it's good to see that we have folks out there pushing the envelope on making power for the rest of us to enjoy.

[RACER X #99]

This post is directed at Wilf.
You already have the best suited engine for a Cobra, why would you want to regress?

Bondurant says the 351 is the best choice for the Cobra and Shelby puts them in their racers. If it's good enough for those two, who am I to argue.

Cranky

[Chaplin]

Who let Cranky in the FE forum?

[Jamo]

Hey, it's cold back in da swamps...what else has he got to do?

How ya doing you ol cranky fart?