Need help 427 low oil pressure ?

[priobe]

Vettestr:

I am not sure if I understand you correctly. The filter that I am running is a Motorcraft FL1A not a 8A. Am I running the wrong filter?


OldDog:

Do you know what the distance should be from rod to rod. I will check that tonight.

Originally Posted by olddog

You should be able to watch the oil pressure climb with rpms until the pressure reachs the point where the bypass valve opens. From that point on the oil pressure should stay pretty much the same.

What is the oil pressure at 1000 rpm, 2000 rpm, 3000 rpm, 4000 rpm - hot and 1000 rpm & 2000 rpm cold?

Oil Pressure is
1000 RPM 20 psi
2000 RPM 25 psi
3000 RPM 28 psi
4000 rpm 28 psi


Iceberg:

I am not sure what a Pond block is. This is a block from 1965 (I guess cast iron) sideoiler. ( Sorry I am affraid to use the word original around here I dont want this thread to get side tracked by using the wrong word.
Or not an aftermarket Block.
Is this what is referred to a Pond block?


Again thank you all of you for your advice.

[patrickt]

That filter is tried and true; it is not the source of the problem. You do not have a Pond block from 1965, so ignore that as well. Those pressure numbers are below what they should be, so you have a real problem. I looked back on this thread and didn't see whether the builder broke the engine in on his dyno. If so did he note the pressures at that time? Or did the engine have good pressure on the dyno and only recently start experiencing low pressure issues?

[priobe]

patrickt,

The builder did break the motor in on the dyno. As a matter of fact he told me that the pressure was at 60 psi not sure the RPM. I recall when the motor was done I specifically asked him this question because I new that the FE had an oiling characteristic to them. The motor was built in 2004 and I would turn the motor over by had as it sat for 1 yr. When I fired up the motor the motor has 60 psi. I then installed the body and continued the build process and notice that the pressure would only go up to 30 psi.

I spoke to the builder and he told me that clearances are not the problem which I have stated the number in this thread.

The builder did mention that the heads are not restricted. But we both agree if it had pressure before where did it go?

Also all the oil plugs have been installed with epoxy so they will not blow out. I witness this myself.

The only plug which I still can not see is the one inside the distributor. I dont see how you will see it with a mirror. I tried using a coat hanger and bend a 90 degree end approximately 3 inch long to see if I could feel something or in this case feel nothing and I believe the plug is there. Also, with the drill in a reverse rotation I do not see oil spilling out from the front hole which is a good indication that it is installed.

Update: inspected the oil pump gears
1. height 1.09 inch - which is a HV pump
2. plunger inside pump moves in and out with some tension
3. gears look good with no scaring or pits
4. I was not able to remove the spring but I dont if this is the problem
5 I will problably replave the pump with a Precision Oil pump unit w/ spring kit just to be on the safe side

Any thoughts?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by priobe

When I fired up the motor the motor has 60 psi. I then installed the body and continued the build process and notice that the pressure would only go up to 30 psi.

Got it. Let's assume that there is nothing wrong with your engine. If that's true then bolting on an old stock oil filter adapter with a fresh filter to your block (and thus temporarily bypassing all of that pretty plumbing) will bring your numbers significantly up. I think the likelihood of your engine "going South" while you were putting on the body and doing the rest of the build is remote. I'm betting the problem is in your external plumbing -- you just can't see it from the outside. Putting a stock oil filter adapter and fresh filter on is a quick test that will tell you for sure.

[priobe]

I will check to see if I can locate the angle adaptor to clear the frame. The one I purchased hits the frame.

I have also tried removing the pluming from the filter and putting an AN hose from out of the adaptor to back in and did not see a difference.

[vettestr]

No your filter is not wrong,
I was using filter numbers that are common type or constuction. The info about internal bypass ability is correct and some are designed to have it and some are not, the 8a is not. The filter design in your case does not matter for your problem at all. The filter block was bypassed so it simply is not the issue either. I was relating the fact some housings have a built in bypass to deal with clogged or overpressure filter and if plumbed backwards will be a problem. You bypassed the mount so it can not be an issue. PS I run the 8a type filter on all my toys as I do not want any bypass in filter and protect flow potentials in other ways.

http://www.mgnoc.com/_overlay/Archives/oil_filters.htm
Here is a quote from above just for reference =
The spin-on oil filter has its own bypass relief valve: an “internal” relief valve. The filter’s internal relief valve allows oil to flow past the filter element without passing through it when the filter element’s resistance to flow is above the filter’s relief valve setting. This performs the dual function of protecting the filter element from damaging high differential pressures, as well as protecting the engine from potential oil starvation caused by a plugged filter. SAE HS-806 lists five standardized internal relief valve settings.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by priobe

I have also tried removing the pluming from the filter and putting an AN hose from out of the adaptor to back in and did not see a difference.

That's interesting. Can you just loosen your motor mounts and jack the engine up a little bit to get the adaptor to temporarily clear the frame? We're not going to take it for a ride, we just want to fire it up for a little while. I'd like to see what the numbers are now with the same adaptor that was on it when it was running right.

[olddog]

Originally Posted by priobe

OldDog:

Do you know what the distance should be from rod to rod. I will check that tonight.

Oil Pressure is
1000 RPM 20 psi
2000 RPM 25 psi
3000 RPM 28 psi
4000 rpm 28 psi

Sorry to have been away for a while. I do not know the rod clearance off the top of my head, and my wife put my books (that I left in the living room) in a mountainous pile in front of my dresser. I hated to try to find anything in the pile for fear of an avalanch. I'll get back to you on that one.

I think Patrickt is onto something. Follow his advice first.

Just looking at your rpm verses pressure numbers I'll tell you what I suspect. I suspect there is a flow restriction between the oil pump and the pressure gauge. There is a big pressure drop at this restriction (say 40 psi). The pressure at the pump is still up in the 50 - 70 range. Somewhere between 2000 and 3000 rpm the pressure at the pump is high enough to open the pressure relief valve built into the pump, which is why the pressure you are measuring levels out at 28 psi. The most likely place for this restriction is in the external plumbing that Patrickt wants you to remove.

The adapter that is bolted to the block may not have the holes lined up correctly. A line may have a bad spot where a chunk folds over and forms a blockage under flow (rubber brake lines do this a lot). I really suspect there is some problem here.

[priobe]

UPDATE:

Ok after cursing for about 2 hours and battling the removal of the toploader tranny, I think I figured out the low oil pressure problem. Apparently my Engine builder installed the pressure relief valve incorrectly in the back of the block.

This is what I found after removing the allen plug that is located above the camshaft was the spring then plunger in the block.

I know it should be spring 1st the plunger with the stem facing toward the allen plug.

Now since I have the oil pump in hand which I verified is a HV pump shoul I replace it with Precision oil pump and high pressure spring?


The oil old pump looks perfect.

I just figured since it is off should replace it.


What are your thoughts?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by priobe

Apparently my Engine builder installed the pressure relief valve incorrectly in the back of the block...

What are your thoughts?

But weren't you, and the builder, both getting good pressure numbers before you put the engine in your car? I guess it couldn't hurt to put it back together and fire it up and see what the new numbers are now though. If they're still down low, then that wasn't it.

[lineslinger]

Originally Posted by lineslinger

Do post some pictures of your plumbing if you can Priobe.
10 - 15 psi at idle is not good at all, way too low. If it was my engine I would not run the engine until you get the pressure issue diagnosed. If you are running twin filters you should most certainly be using a high volume oil pump IMHO.
Old dog is dead on with his advice.
Other questions I might ask is are you running restrictor plugs in your heads, what about the condition your valve stem seals, amybe a clogged oil pump pick up? Possibly a loose seal/connection in the pump pick up attachment area, there is a lot to consider.
If your plumbing is correct and you have the HV oil pump in place you might want to consider the settings, or lack thereof, of your oil pressure relief valve at the back of the block as well as the pressure relief/bypass setting in your oil pump. I shimmed out the pressure relief spring in the oil pump to boost pressure and eliminated the engines pressure relief valve all together.
With these modifications, at idle, I am seeing 70 psi. In the upper rpm range the OP is right at 100 psi. Many will say this is too high but I would disagree for many reasons, but thats another thread.
Lets see some photos when you get a chance.

Priobe,
Really glad for you and figuring out what was wrong.
I don't see any reason to replace your oil pump, the Melling has a good reputation and if you do desire a pressure boost you can shim the pressure relief spring in the pump. At this point maybe you should consider putting the motor together so you can start it and get some pressure readings.
Don't hook up everything just yet, get the oil pressure readings first. If you are getting the OP readings desired you may at that point decide if you want to boost the pressure or not.
While you have the tranny disconnected you will be able to inspect the rear of the engine, the crank seal and the various plugged ports for any oil seepage.

[priobe]

Lineslinger,

In your quote you mentioned that you bypassed the pressure relief valve in the block all together.

How did you di that ?

Did you remove the pressure valve / spring and not install anything in the hole ?

Also,

Where could I get the plug for where the oil pressure spring goes in the oil pump?

Thanks

[patrickt]

This was another debated issue, but the prevailing sentiment on the Ford FE forum was that you should run the oil pressure relief valve in the block even if you have a pressure relief valve in the oil pump. As I recall, George Gessford posted a message to that effect stating that he did that because the "block was designed to use it." Other builders tended to agree with that, although it was not unanimous. I went to Gessford's site and he has them in stock. A phone call to him couldn't hurt, and here's the page on his site that has them. http://www.gessford.com/cobraparts/fblocks.htm Please post your OP numbers when you fire it up as I am really curious to see what the results are! The fact that both the builder and you had good OP numbers before you put the engine in the car has me befuddled.

[priobe]

patrickt,

I am befuddled as well. Here is the way I determined the problem.

I reinstalled the oil pump and took an old oil pick up and cut the screen off. Then I installed a hose on the end of the pickup and placed the other end in a bucket of oil. I then had my brother in law attach a drill in the revere motion to pump oil thoughout the block. I noticed seepage from the crank and cam but in the rear of the motor was Niagara Falls!!!

I removed the tranny and clutch. Removed the allen plug and there it was installed incorrectly.

Now if you remove this plunger setup from the back of the block I am believing you will have a major interal oil leak like I experienced unless you insert a cylinder the size of the spring or plunger to block the holes in the block.

[patrickt]

Very nice, although I think I would have manned the drill and told my brother-in-law "Stand right here and look straight up and tell me if you see anything leaking out." If you decide not to use the block's valve, here was the viewpoint that supported doing that (from a well-respected contributor, BTW):

When the block contains it's own pressure regulation valve (typically set for 55-65PSI), the pump is recalibrated to bypass only at 115-125PSI in order to prevent cold start issues such as blowing pump gaskets or filters.

The benefit of having the relief at the rear of the block is it assures the farthest reaching points in the block have sufficient pressure - important if bearing clearances are loose and a lot of pressure is lost along the oiling circuit.

Since the pump can be calibrated for whatever pressure you desire, and since it is not particularly difficult to determine what the pressure will be in the far flung reaches of the block, there is no real reason to use the block's pressure regulator, outside of the possible coolness factor.

It is quire reasonable to defeat the block's oil pressure regulation valve and use an oil pump that is calibrated to regulate at the pressure you seek.

[priobe]

Originally Posted by priobe

patrickt,

Now if you remove this plunger setup from the back of the block I am believing you will have a major interal oil leak like I experienced unless you insert a cylinder the size of the spring or plunger to block the holes in the block.

Is anything installed in place of the oil relief valve?

If nothing is installed and then me having the this installed incorrectly would not be my problem of the interal leak.

It looks like the way the valve is designed with the 2 grooves on the plunger is to releave the pressure when needed. When the pressure is "normal" with the plunger installed will block 2 passages until the pressure is builds up to be released.


2nd question:

In your quote it states "the relief valve in the back of the block will operate at typically 55-65 psi".If the valve is installed then those of us with the relief valve installed will only have 55- 60 psi of oil pressure regardless of what we do to the pump.



Again,

These are only questions that I am asking to better understand hoe the oiling system works. I am not trying to make any statements.

[lineslinger]

Originally Posted by priobe

Lineslinger,

In your quote you mentioned that you bypassed the pressure relief valve in the block all together.

How did you di that ?

Did you remove the pressure valve / spring and not install anything in the hole ?

Also,

Where could I get the plug for where the oil pressure spring goes in the oil pump?

Thanks

I eliminated both the spring and plunger and inserted an aluminum dowel in its place.
I shimmed the the relief valve in the oil pump.
With these changes I have an OP at idle of apprx. 70 psi.
At higher rpms the OP will climb to anywhere from 90 to 100 psi depending on oil heat and weight.
What I won't do is rev it up while its still cold. I wait until I see the temp gauge move before giving it any rpm's.
You should be able to find the plug at Melling or DSC.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by priobe

Is anything installed in place of the oil relief valve?



In your quote it states "the relief valve in the back of the block will operate at typically 55-65 psi".If the valve is installed then those of us with the relief valve installed will only have 55- 60 psi of oil pressure regardless of what we do to the pump.

I think when people say they "don't use the block valve" that implies they blocked it off even when they don't actually write that explicitly. There has been more discussion on what sort of thread to use to block it off rather than to block it off or leave it open (meaning people either used the valve or blocked it off). One post mentioned that the plug needed had an English Wentworth thread that was close to a 5/16 18 size. Supposedly a pipe plug could cause more problems than it fixed. As to the PSI, the forum threads have the block relief as being calibrated for 60-80 PSI, you adjust the plug position to change the value, and the lowest pressure will be at the relief valve when it's open with the areas before the valve having a higher pressure. Again, this is from years of FordFE forum discussions. A call to George G. would get a definitive answer on pressure theory. If it were me building the engine, I'd have George ship me a new valve and I'd put it in the block. But there is no shortage of folks who have just blocked it off entirely.

[FFR428]

This has been a really interesting topic. I'm curious what the outcome will be. Did you decide to use the new pump from Doug or stick with the original? FWIW I've heard the Genesis and Pond sideoiler blocks don't have or use the releif valve either. There is just a blind plug there for the "look". I'll have to take the plug out of my Gen block and confirm it for myself tho. Seems odd they would machine and tap a plug that's hidden anyway other than for looks. Well good luck and hope the outcome has a positive result.

G.

[Rick Parker]

Phil:

Can you confirm that the hose attached at the filters that is carrining pressurized oil away from the motor is connected to the rail which feeds oil to the OUTSIDE of the filter and NOT the center? Forgive me if this is elementary but I have seen it happen unknowingly. I am unfamiliar with that remote filter mount and have tried to find photos of the underside before asking this.