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  • 1 Post By eschaider

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2010, 04:31 AM
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Default Engine Management System / Traction control

Since I had the pleasure to enjoy a ride on a fairly powerful Cobra, being equipped with a traction control unit which has proven being functional in real life I am now seeking a possibility to combine this system into the set-up of my car.

For anyone interested in traction control: This is a system you should really have a look at!

The car I had the chance to "feel" the advantages resulting out of the usuage of the Racelogic ( http://www.racelogic.co.uk/ ) traction control had a stroked LS-2 engine installed and traction control unit was compatible to the EMS/ECU of the Chevy.

Having a FE 482 unit on my car with carburetted fuel supply I am now seeking an EMS / ECU which I can combine with a fuel injection.

Criteria the EMS/ECU will need to fullfill are:
- standard saturated injection signal
- 4 ohms or more
- no misfire detection
- puls width modulation is not acceptable

Unfortunately it appears as if most of the ECU/EMS supplied nowadays are not matching the above.

On top of this I would love to have a system installed that is self learning up to a certain extend - Mass-Flo would have been an option but unfortunately they appear to use PWM. Same most likely apllies to the Powerjection III too.

Would be great in case any of you had an idea if there are any alternatives out there which might be worth while to have a look at.

Of course also alternative traction controls are an option for me as Žong as they control the speed of each wheel individually. So far I can not imagine that I would opt for a version that controls the drive shaft. But in case I need to be corrected on this judgement: Please do so........

Thanks for your related support in advance

Carsten
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Old 03-02-2010, 06:57 AM
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Talk to Fred Klemmerer (sp) in the ERA section. He recently completed a killer ERA that has a traction control system on it.

-Dean
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Old 03-02-2010, 07:38 AM
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Hi Dean,

thanks a lot for the hint!

I do follow his impressive build since quite a while and understood (hopefully I am wrong) that the FAST system he is using controls the drive shaft.

Drive shaft control is definately an option in regard to traction control - Still, I am aiming for a traction controls that is linked to the individual wheel via sensors mounted on presumably the hub carriers.

regards
Carsten
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Old 03-02-2010, 08:56 AM
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Driveshaft works for traction control--individual wheel speed is only important for anti lock braking or stability control

You could use any system from 1996 Vette up and even have active suspension
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Old 03-03-2010, 02:41 AM
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Dean, Jerry,

thanks for the input and your opinions - So most likely it will be the best to ask Fred Klemmer about his experiences with the FAST traction control.

In case anyone had some input in regard to an EMS that fullfills the below criteria I shall still be very thankful for related input:

- standard saturated injection signal
- 4 ohms or more
- no misfire detection
- no puls width modulation

Carsten
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Old 03-03-2010, 01:19 PM
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I'm using that exact traction control unit on my Factory Five car. I'm still building my car and hope to have it finished this summer.

The Racelogic system reduces power by selectively disabling fuel injectors so the only way it can work is "through the drive shaft" as you say.

I'm aware of OEM traction control systems that control individual wheels by applying brake to the slipping wheel, rather than limiting engine output. This is less than ideal for a performance car.

I've got a 482" FE with TWM stack injection and an Electromotive TEC GT ECU. As you stated, it's key to use high impedence fuel injectors - the Racelogic circuit board cannot handle the high current demands of the low impedence injectors. I have RC Engineering injectors. I should have this thing running soon but I won't be able to drive it for a bit. I can hardly wait. One nice thing about the TEC is that it also controls spark so my setup has no distributor.

You also need individual wheel speed sensors. That can be a challenge if your parts weren't originally designed for ABS. You can use the ABS sensors (if you have them) or Racelogic sells a set of dedicated wheel speed sensors. This is what I did but I have yet to fit them to the car. I've found a way to do it but it will requiring milling slots in the rear emergency brake drums (drum in hat brake configuration). I have front Ford spindles/hubs with ABS reluctor wheels on them already so I just need to mount the sensors.

Hope that helps.
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Old 03-03-2010, 03:32 PM
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Check out http://www.adaptronic.com.au/index.php

I am running one of their ecu's on a supercharged lexus motor in my cobra. The ecu has traction control, launch control, boost control, flat shift self tuning as well as a million other features and will run any engine.

The traction control is adjustable from a pot on the dash as well as in the software. I had to make up a speed sensor for the front wheel (jag hub) that needed a bit of sorting but it works great now and the traction control is very adjustable or even switch it off to let some smoke out.
The traction control works by first pulling timing and then either spark or fuel depending what and how much you define in the software.

The self tune feature means you can pretty much just go for a drive and it tunes itself.

Very happy with the results, and saved a fortune in dyno time.

Last edited by *Cobber*; 03-03-2010 at 03:35 PM..
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Old 03-03-2010, 10:57 PM
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BMEP, Cobber,

first of all let me thank you very much for your valuable input! Great information and highly appreciated!

What are your experiences in regard to the effort of having the ECU/EMS of the Adaptronic / TEC properly tuned?

I am asking this question as the more input I receive (FI being new to me) the more I understand that the vast majority of the systems appears to be extremly tuning (which I presume is an equivalent for $$$$) intense and the results are in most cases not only satisfying.

Even folks that had their cars tuned by reputated Dyno shops appear to run into problems regularly once it comes to non-standard driving conditions.

Adaptronic: Cobber, did I get it correctly that you mounted a sensor on the front wheel only or are there additional senors on the rear axle assembly too?

Carsten
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Old 03-04-2010, 12:01 AM
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The (vehicle) rear speed sensor is on the gearbox (power lock diff) so I needed to mount a speed sensor on the front. I laser cut a chopper dick to mount on the rear of the hub and set up a prox switch for the signal.

If the back goes faster than the front it pulls timing, cuts spark and fuel to retain traction. All of this is infinitely variable and calculated 250 times a second. You can also set up a change over road speed where the traction control setting will allow more or less slip above a certain speed as well as have full control from a pot on the dash.

Tuning is a piece of cake, enter the engine size and injector size, set the fuel map to around 80 - 90% volumetric efficiency, set what fuel air ratios you want to run at what rpm and then go for a drive. Initially I set up a rapid learn and then after around an hour of variable driving I set up a fine tune to get it dialled in. The beauty of street tuning is that it is being tuned for how the car is used not just a high end big dyno graph number and a pig to drive.

Launch control works by holding a pre set rpm (usually peak torque rpm) until a Prue defined road speed at this point traction control takes over.

I also do a data logs to check the fuel air ratios later and they are spot on to my settings.

I have set up the second fuel map for lean cruise for long runs and around town driving.

This was also my first journey into efi and found it easy once I read the manual and took it step by step. A lot of fun and doing it myself I now know how it all works.

The adaptronic is an integrated system for engine control and traction control not a piggy back.

Last edited by *Cobber*; 03-04-2010 at 12:05 AM..
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Old 03-04-2010, 12:08 AM
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Cobber,

thanks so much for the further explanation - So I guess I will need to have a deeper look into this ECU / EMS in any case.

Adaptronic appears to provide a fairly detailed background info on their homepage - So I know what to do over the wekk-end.........

A lot will depend on the FI I will opt for as I do not see myself being able to taylor make the wiring loom.........

Thanks again

Carsten
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Old 03-04-2010, 06:05 AM
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Carsten,

There are many systems out there today. Most EFI falls into one of two types: speed density and mass airflow. Speed density relies largely on tables of data and a "computer model" to calculate the amount of fuel to inject under any given situation. The amount of air entering the engine is never really measured but rather calculated based on various inputs like manifold pressure (vacuum), RPM and temperature.

Mass airflow systems actually measure the amount (mass) of air that's entering the engine at any given time. This makes it much easier for the ECU to calculate the correct amount of fuel to inject at any given moment.

Because it actually measures the amount of air entering an engine, mass airflow is easier to tune and in fact, some systems out there are "self tuning". Speed density systems require manual tuning to "program" the data tables to correctly match the engine's needs. This is what a "tuner" will do when he/she tunes a speed density EFI (plus some other settings like spark advance, sensor calibration, etc.). A good tuner can make a speed density system work just as well as a mass airflow system. However, a poor tune on a speed density system will mean poor running, especially in varying conditions. Of course, it's possible to do a bad tune on a mass airflow system too.

One challenge to mass airflow systems: The mass airflow sensor ("MAF") has to be able to measure the total amount of air entering the engine. For this reason, the multi throttle body systems (like the TWM "stack" system) are all speed density design. In theory this could be done a couple of ways but there aren't any commercially available "stack" type systems that use mass airflow that I'm aware of.

The Racelogic traction control system is largely independent from the ECU. It's wired between the ECU and the injectors. That's why you see the restrictions about what type of injectors (and to some degree, how the ECU works with injectors).

Hope that helps...

Cheers, Rob
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Old 03-08-2010, 03:52 AM
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Rob,

thanks a lot for the above information - Getting closer and closer to a point where I hope being able to understand at least a small portion of FI-mystery.

What you wrote was definately of great help to me.

Carsten
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Old 01-25-2011, 03:52 PM
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Carsten

Have you advanced any more on this? I'm interested in using both a throttle body induction/injection system and a traction control system .

Thanks
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:32 PM
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Unfortunetly not as yet as I did not find any combination that would really match with the Racelogic system - the traction control I do favor.......

I got stuck...........welcome to my real world...

Sorry for no better news
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Old 01-26-2011, 03:22 PM
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There are a few engine ecu's that now incorporate traction, launch control flat shift etc with varying degrees of tune ability. Race logic is a bolt on interceptor style unit that in my view only gives limited control ability. For the same price or cheaper you can get a complete engine ecu that will do everything.
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Old 01-27-2011, 03:11 AM
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Cobber,

well noted and do agree that there is a variety of other options - Still I am sort of stuck as I want to keep the original looks also under the hood.

regards
Carsten
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Old 06-08-2020, 12:21 PM
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Did someone find the right solution here actually?
I have a 2018 coyote engine
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Old 06-08-2020, 02:29 PM
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In a word, NO!

The RaceLogic traction control system the OP spoke to is antique technology that is more than a decade old and uses fuel cuts of varying severity to progressively reduce engine power to control traction. While there are much better ways to do the job w/o forcing the engine into a lean condition, the forced lean might be OK for a n/a engine. It is disaster for a supercharged engine. Supercharged engines forced lean will burn pistons and backfire blowers. This approach is a big time no-no for blower motors.

The 'correct' or best approach available today is to pull timing which will also preclude wheel spin and in a worst case scenario foul the plugs because the engine got too rich.

Virtually all the top line EFI offerings today have some variation of this better approach. TC systems that cut ignition or lean the motor out should be avoided at all costs — they kill engines especially supercharged engines. If you are looking for an economical ECU with TC for your engine you will want to use a MS3Pro or MS3Pro PnP system from DIYAutoTune.com <= clickable.

One of several prepackaged (that means as delivered in the ECU s/w) TC systems they offer is percentage slip based. You specify the percentage slip you are willing to tolerate before pulling power (timing) and the ECU will moderate your power at the tire to just below the slip percentage you have specified. The beauty of the slip percent based approach is it works on any road surface from dirt to asphalt.


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Old 06-08-2020, 04:25 PM
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Didn't the guy that autocrosses the original Cobra ("Cobra #3170"?) put some TCS system? I know it was non trivial. Account screwups have made him abandon the site...
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