Announcing New Kirkham Billet Aluminum 427 Block

[Woodz428]

I'd have to raise issue with the comments regarding how wide spread the nikasil coating is in bike engines. I worked in the bike industry for 40 years and unless they have changed drasticly in the last few, it was only moto-cross bikes that had them. They are of course torn down after every race. All the sport bikes ran steel sleeves, as did most street bikes. I have had some of those cylinders recoated and it isn't that cheap, actually it was usually cheaper to have a steel sleeve put in. I'd hate to see the price for re-coating a V8. Moto-cross bikes are usually outdated every year as well, so there is no such thing as long term usage. I'd rather have the extra weight of steel sleeves. Just my observations.

[Dr.Dale]

...Bmw Boxer twin motorcycles have used liner-less plated bores since 1981. Motoguzzi had them before BMW did.

[PJS50]

Woodsy,
I know my KX125 dirt bike has a nikasil coated bore, but since I have never been crazy enough to get into fast street bikes (because I would soon be dead!) I cannot vouch for them...
My Artic Cat snowmobiles also utilize nikasil in the cylinder bores...
If memory serves me, when I had to get one of those Cat cylinder "jugs" re-nikasiled about 5 years ago, it ran me about $120 for the ONE!
Yea, it ain't cheap, but it is some pretty awesome stuff...
Cool block David!!! I wonder if your use of all of that aluminum making these blocks is going to affect the price of my "beverage of choice"... BEEERRRR!!

[Woodz428]

I am full aware of the many applications of nikasil.. I was just taking issue with the broad statement regarding motorcycles. By the way, the BMW and Guzzi are not high volume production in comparison to the rest of the industry. Snow mobiles either, and I have repaired plenty of those as well. I would also suggest that Beemers, especially, are better maintained than a lot of vehicles. Most nikasil cylinders also run a lot lighter ring tension to decrease the wear on the bores, which if you are looking for max HP is a plus, but not neccesarily for long term usage.Once again the moto-cross boys, and they are boys now days, always carry a spare set of rings or 2 and pull the jug after every event. The owners manuals even reccomend a frequent ring change to keep top performance.As stated, I do think the block is beautiful, I would just not mind the extra weight of steel sleeves. The thickness wouldn't have to be that much because of block strength and servicability would be better IMHO. I guess I have spent to much of my life repairing others failed components and that is what I base my preference on.

[craigayl]

David

Nice block...

It does not appear to have FE rocker shaft oiling. What will be the head/rocker oiling system?

Craig

[CobraBoy]

David,

One word. AWESOME! Kirkham raises the bar yet again!

Paul

[What'saCobra?]

i'm no expert but...

My first experience with nikasil was on a 1975 or so BMW Daytona. At almost 100K it still had perfect oil control when i foolishly gave it away. Most of the BMW aly blocks are coated and unsleeved. It works just fine, with a very low failure rate. It's not cheap, but worth the money and still marginally less cost than sleeving with steel because of increasing labor costs, as opposed to the still-proprietary profit margins of coating.

There are not many down-sides. Break-in is a little longer than ductile iron rings on iron, of course, and a proper ring seat requires modest street rpm's for a while to increase the odds of a quick nice fit. Perhaps not as difficult or improbable as seating chrome rings properly, for instance. A handfull or two of careful dyno pulls will help establish a seal.

Aircraft cylinder jugs (aircooled like the Daytona, remember), respond well to bore coatings. It is a very long story, but now fairly well settled amongst many safety and cost-minded operators that overhauled jugs ought to be coated if the core engine has consumed less than half its useful life between overhauls.

i would agree that coated-bore aly blocks are the way to go, particularly for semi-street engines. i suspect, however, that the proprietary nature of the coating process makes it very important ragarding WHO does the coating and WHAT the history of THEIR coatings is and how financially stable and willing they are to insure warranty liabilities, including components installed in the block.

My bet is that the Kirkham guys will have this all properly covered long before they make any blocks available to the public.
----------------------------------
As daddy used to say:

There is certainly no strategic advantage to wedding an Albatross to a Harrier. The Albatross will be at least disappointed and the Harrier is likely to be very very angry.

[Ibr8k4vetts]

David
Very cool block You said "The block is drilled for hydraulic lifters so it will take either solids or hydraulics." Then you said the rockers will be oiled by the push rods, How dose that happen with a solid lifter? Thanks.

[HighPlainsDrifter]

Please compare apples to apples.
.
A KB block is built to withstand blown alcohol combo's of 3,500 HP and nitromethane combo's upwards of 7,000 HP.
Just how does that have anything to do with a pump gas unblown street engine?
I know of several Honda motorcycle engines with the cylinder coating that have over 100,000 miles on them at 12,000 + rpm sprints with no ill effects.
Great to have big block engines with proven modern technology... keep it up !
Perry.

[Aussie Mike]

We were running 250 Production and 125 and 250 GP bikes. I had a Honda NSR250 friends were running Suzuki RGV250s some of the guys were running Yamaha TZ125s and TZ250s. All of these bikes were running coated bores. Prior to that we messed arround with Yamaha RD250 air coolers and water cooled LCs.

I think the first chrome bore I saw was a Kawasaki KDX 175 of about 1980 vintage. The improvement in power and reliability with the chrome bore machines was amazing. 2 strokes can easily generate piston melting exhaust temps. The exhaust port is a hole in the cylinder wall and they usually nip up or pick up the piston on the cylinder wall just below the exhaust port. Since they rely purely on the oil in the fuel to lubricate the cylinder walls the bores get tortured in a 2 stroke.

Most strokers run pretty fat jetting from tha factory for safety but the leaner you get the more power they seem to make up to a point where something melts. water cooling and coated bores let you get closer to that limit. I've seen a few siezed cylinders and the coated cylinder wall still been servicable after a bit of a clean up. Re coating was only ever needed if the surface was gouged or the piston ring had snagged the edge of the coating on the exhaust port.

I think longevity in a 4 cycle engine running coated bores won't be a problem. some of these little 250's were making 80HP at 13K RPM

Cheers

[Excaliber]

It will be interesting to see how well the bore holds up. In that regard a couple of things come to mind. BMW sells a TON of bikes and many see some serious mileage, like police duty. The second thing is, how many of us put serious mileage on our Cobra? Very very few! If you plan on a 100K miles for your Cobra, you might consider other alternatives until Davids technology proves it's worth.

[Excaliber]

Sal, Woodz, I think you guys are missing the main point of Davids motor, low weight. THAT is fundamental to the design, using sleeves would just not be logical in this endeavor due to the weight penalty. Like many exoctic applications one has to weigh the 'long term' risk against the benefit, for some this will be a thing of beauty!

As for bragging rights, a BILLET motor? Whoa, thats some serious 'talk story' headlines there, just look at THIS thread!

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Sal, Woodz, I think you guys are missing the main point of Davids motor, low weight. THAT is fundamental to the design, using sleeves would just not be logical in this endeavor due to the weight penalty. Like many exoctic applications one has to weigh the 'long term' risk against the benefit, for some this will be a thing of beauty!

As for bragging rights, a BILLET motor? Whoa, thats some serious 'talk story' headlines there, just look at THIS thread!

I understand not using sleeves keeps the weight down. I am just thinking out loud at some of the things this topic is making cross my mind.

I love to see the Kirkhams try new things. I would hate to see this block fail (either physically or sales wise) because of something not commonly used. I'd rather post my thoughts now before it's even made, and possibly have a chance of using that info to revise the design, then to see it hit production and fizzle out. That's not to say that the Kirkham's don't know what they are doing. But let's not forget what happened when they tried to make a fiberglass body .

[Igofastr]

I wouldn't worry too much about the ability of Nikisil to hold up. Many early Porsche motors used the Nikisil process, and held up for hundreds of thousands of miles. That stuff is TUFF. I have 40 yearold cylinders with a 100K miles on them that are absolutely spotless, and completely reusible without any treatment at all.

I now semi-look foreward to blowing up my motor, just to have an excuse to rebuild with a Kirkham block.

[mrmax]

I currently own a 2000cc vtwin kawasaki vulcan with this application. This is very new to vtwins. Some owners are experiencing 30k or so before jugs are shot, can't even be recoated. Seems that the biggest problem for v configured motors with longer strokes is excessive side forces at bottom of bores due to rod angles that exist in v type motors. Inlines and boxers it is not as big a problem. Ford actually tried this afew years ago calling it spray bore technology in trying to make a 4.6 displace 5.0. (no room for sleeves they said)

[Woodz428]

I am open to the process, I have seen it for years in some of the applications mentioned and some not yet. I doubt that the weight of the thin steel sleeves would be that much. I do agree with the comment regarding side thrust, especially in the long stroke engines that seem so popular now.
Having said that, and being on record as having those concerns, I realize some "real world" testing will be needed before allowing them out the door for sale, at least it would be prudent. As an on the record skeptic, I will offer up my new SPF roadster that I was going to stick a '67 GT500 engine in as a test bed. I will run the piss out of it and will put plenty of miles on it and give an honest appraisal of it's abilities. David you can PM me or send me on offline e-mail to arrange delivery when needed .

[1985 CCX]

KMS, (David)

As I suspect, KMS will be the leader in innovation and truly sets the bar for the industry.

Jeff Gagnon

[RedCSX1]

There are several factors that I think the jury is still out on.

Cooling- Not sure I want to worry about making sure the inspection covers are sealed to prevent water leaks inside and outside the block. Also what about beak down or vibration of the seal over time?

Cylinder Bore Coating - This also worries me, first thought that comes to mind is the Chevy Vega. I know the coating has improved and yes it is used in racing motors but as Mike pointed out there have been problems with breakdown due to poor gas quality. Recoating is very expensive, how often would the cylinders need to be reinspected?

Price - So its basically the same as a Shelby block, right? Which now has an established history and has been going through several years of improvement.

Weight - Would like to see what the total weight is of a complete motor pan to carb compared to a Pond or Shelby.

I am sure that you will get several lab rats on this site who will want to be first to try it out. Should be interesting to see how it unfolds.

[David Kirkham]

Gents,

Thank you all for your great comments!

Ed,

Thank you very much for your kind words. We have been very lucky to have customers who have believed in us over the years and have allowed us to jump off into the unknown to explore what many think can not be done. I wouldn't trade my job for anything. I hear of people who hate to go to work and I just don't understand. I love coming to work...just ask my wife!

Brent,

Thanks! We have a new secret weapon set to arrive in a few weeks. I CAN'T WAIT until it arrives! I have dreamed about it since I started the company years ago.

Steve,

I haven't thought much about dental work because my very good friend Brent DeHart is a dentist! Thanks for being a friend for so many years.

Bunkie314,

I was going to announce it at the open house, but we had so many people wanting to buy cars that day I forgot. It was a good day. Good thing we have such great customers! I have a tunnel port head that I have been looking at for a lot of this R&D. Thanks for the offer, I just might take you up on it.

I hope to have a motor on the dyno in 3-4 weeks.

I am glad you liked the food. We looked a long time to find the good stuff and I was lucky to find it in my next-door-neighbor.

Duane,

We will have a block at the Western States Cobra Bash for display.

Woodz428,

In the past few years certainly have seen a drastic change in that Nikasil has now become VERY common in motorcycle engines--particularly bullet bikes. I must admit, however, my comments were directed toward Japanese bikes--in particular. I haven't paid much attention to Harley motors as they are pretty low performance motors comparatively speaking. Bullet bikes have long set the performance standard for power to weight.

With a decent production, the cost of the Nikasil is very competitive with sleeves. There is no problem having a bore recoated. Another HUGE advantage of the Nikasil is less heat is generated because the bore is so slick. Less friction (heat) is generated in Nikasil bores.

As for motors being pulled down every race. That is true. But ANYTHING that can last an entire F1 race will forever on the street. The loads on F1 pistons are mind-boggling.

That said, I appreciate the concerns that you raise! Who knows that I have overlooked something stupid. I pays to have more than one mind on the problem. That is one of the reasons I love this site so much.

Jeff,

Kirkham Motorsports will not build turn key motors. We will build a few prototypes to make sure they work and then we will sell blocks for now. Later we will sell heads, intake manifolds, etc. Who knows what the future will bring.

Craig,

The heads will oil through the pushrods. The FE oiling system isn't the best IMHO. There isn't any way to do that old style oiling system with our bolt on water jackets.

Murphy,

More than one have now asked. Maybe I'll have to make a few wooden block coffee tables...

Paul,

Thanks!

Ernie,

100,000 miles! Now that is a worthy goal!

Whats'aCobra,

You can rest assured we will do our best to try to blow the motor up many times over before we start to sell them to the public.

Sal,

The bore can easily be re-coated in case of damage. As for the fiberlass failure, I don't think any of the customers who purchased fiberglass cars are unhappy.

Ernie,

Right on. LOW weight.

Igofastr,

I hope you don't blow up your motor...but if you do, give me a call!

mrmax,

We intend to wear the dyno out making sure the block is good.

Mike,

Thanks for your comments and observations on the block. I REALLY appreciated the time you took to evaluate the block and to give me suggestions. Thank you for coming!

I hope people don't use junk gas in these motors! The problems they had we all attributed to bad gas with a high sulfur content from many years ago. Today, the EPA rules don't allow that high of sulfur content in gasoline.

Perry,

That is EXACTLY what we are trying to do--bring 21st century technology to the parts of yesterday to make them as cool as possible!

Jeff,

Thanks for your kind words!

flwolfman.

With all the people wanting wooden blocks, we may have to soon!

RedCSX1,

Thank you! You bring up valid points. The whole world is not roses and there are issues that HAVE to be looked at to make sure the block is reliable.

Leaking--I got the idea on 0-rings from a Honda water pump I changed a while back...no leaks in 100,000 miles. The shaft seal failed--not the o-ring. We use o-rings in our billet water tanks and have not had a single one leak--ever. Honda and Toyota still use o-rings extensively in their motors. They are cheap and EFFECTIVE.

Cylinder bore recoating.

Mike quoted Wikipedia in his post. If you look further into the process (and failures) you will find they were all attributed to bad gas (too high of sulphur content) from the not so stringent EPA standards of 5-10 years ago. All failures were attributed to people who put REGULAR unleaded in their tanks--not premium unleaded. Even back then, people who ran premium unleaded didn't have the coating failure (premium had a lower sulfur content. If you take apart a new Kawasaki bullet bike you will find Nikasil coated bores. The loads, RPM's that a bullet bike piston sees are much greater than anything I will ever do in a 427. The beating on a bullet bike it unbelievable. But then again, so is Japanese engineering.

Weight--I hope to save 50 pounds. Time will tell if I am dreaming!

Lab Rats...

There is already a LONG line of lab rats waiting around here...I am the FIRST one in line!

David

[dynoroom]

Nikasil
Nikasil is a trademarked electrodeposited oleophilic nickel matrix silicon carbide coating for engine components, mainly piston engine cylinder liners. It was introduced by Mahle 1967, initially developed to allow rotary engine pistons to work directly against the aluminum housing. This coating allowed aluminium cylinders and pistons to work directly against each other with low wear and friction. Unlike other methods, including cast iron cylinder liners, Nikasil allowed very large cylinder bores with tight tolerances and thus allowed existing engine designs to be expanded easily, the aluminium cylinders also gave a much better heat conductivity than cast iron liners which is an important factor for a high output engine.

Porsche started using this on the 1970 917 race car, and later on the 1973 911 RS. Porsche also used it on production cars, but for a short time switched to Alusil due to cost savings for their base 911. Nikasil cylinders were always used for the 911 turbo and RS models. Nikasil coated aluminum cylinders allowed Porsche to build air-cooled engines that had the highest specific output of any engine of their time. Nikasil is still used in today's 911s with great success.

Nikasil was very popular in the 1990s. It was used by companies such as BMW, Ferrari,Honda and Jaguar Cars in their new engine families. However, the sulfur found in much of the world's low quality gasoline caused the Nikasil cylinders used by BMW to break down over time, causing costly engine failures. Eventually, the product was abandoned after BMW was forced to replace a number of M60 V8 engines in the USA and the UK. Nikasil or similar coatings under other trademarks are still widely used in racing engines where low quality gasoline isn't a problem, this include F1, ChampCar and NASCAR engines.