Announcing New Kirkham Billet Aluminum 427 Block

[acschlary]

David,

I noticed there are no side skirts for main cap cross bolts. The elimination of the skirt material will add to the total weight reduction but at what sacrifice to the of the block?

[saltytri]

Steve P:

Let's see: at your raw material price of $1.50/lb and my vehicle weight of about 2100 lbs give or take, my car comes out at $3150. I'll take a Baker's Dozen!

No more of this. I'm not hijacking David K's excellent thread. Thanks so much to all of you who have contributed very interesting information, especially on the subject of bore lining and plating.

David I.

[Excaliber]

Price per pound? Well thats one way to look at it I guess. Diamonds, wonder what THEY cost per pound?

[STEVE POTTS]

David I:

That's correct...the raw material cost for all of the parts in your car is extremely low...its staggerring.

Lets look at the other end of the spectrum. Car weight of 2500 lbs x $62.50 per pound(which is the cost of the machined FE block). This yields $156,250.

If we could only find a way to eat steel...its only $.030 per pound...that would be much cheaper than a prime fillet at $12.00/lb.

[David Kirkham]

Commander,

I appreciate your comments. They are certainly worth commenting on and looking into. My brother and I have spent literally hundreds of hours studying engine blocks, theory, etc. We have all sorts of books on engines and how to make them. Incidentally, our favorite bathroom reading material is "Allied Aircraft Piston Engines of World War II" by Graham White, and Sir Harry Ricardo's "The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine." I highly recommend anyone who is interested in engines read both of them--many times. We have spent hours upon hours in museums studying engines, talking to engine builders in all forms of racing, and fortunately, using engines in all sorts of conditions.

My point on the ribs is I think they do nothing to add to the stiffness of the block in the actual application we are interested in. As for 7000 horsepower drag race engines, I readily admit I have no knowledge or interest in them as I seriously doubt anyone will push our engines to much more than 700hp. After spending the day on the track at Miller Motorsports and hearing EVERYONE (including myself) lift before the end of the straight I can assure you no one is using all the horsepower they currently have--and many of our customers only have 500 horsepower engines.

Why do I think the ribs add "nothing"...

Well, I base that on the observations of many, many motors. As I mentioned, the latest Ford 5.4 doesn't have ribs and is capable of 1000 horsepower (more than I need). Perhaps Ford put ribs in later blocks (I don't know, but you mentioned they did) because people were intending to blow them to ridiculous horsepower figures I simply don't intend to achieve. 700 horsepower is enough; 800 horsepower would thrill me as it is a wide margin of safety. (I am not sure why you mentioned I was only interested in 600 horsepower.) I am sorry if you understood me that way--I should have explained things better.

But, the list of engines without ribs is much longer. The Rolls Royce Merlin, and all radial engines of WWII didn't have ribs. Before anyone says that radial engines are a different monster because all pistons push on the same crank journal, remember there are several radial engines that had multiple cylinders in line (albeit twisted to put the other jugs into the air stream.) Finally, one of the greatest race engines of all time, the Porsche 917, produced 1200 horsepower--and it had no ribs...it is a flat (opposed) engine.

After taking all of those things into consideration, I decided the ribs were insignificant in the overall strength of what I wanted to achieve. the length of the water jacket had nothing to do with the decision. I could have made individual plates between the ribs had I been so inclined. See the picture of the latest DART billet block with ribs and bolt on water jackets. (It made me smile to see both of us come up with the bolt on water jacket independently.)

Here is a picture of DART's latest billet block with individual water jackets around the ribs.



The 79 pounds does not include bolts. (Don't have them yet). But have no fear, I will post everything when we are finished.

As for why Ford doesn't use Nikasil...I can only imagine cost. If they can save 10 dollars on a million item production run they can save 10 million dollars. The guys I know at Ford are concerned with 1/10th of a penny when they are getting bids.

David

[Commander]

You do realize you just posted a picture of a (sorta) mainstream (non-7000 HP) block WITH ribs?

I'm sorry this back and forth has seemed to center around the 'rib issue'. I don't care all that much, as long as the actual dyno results show your design to be good. With a solid intake solidly bolted to the heads (not something like a 3 piece kinsler with a non-structural mid-plate), then you're probably OK.

In all seriousness though, I would be interested in one of your wooden blocks. Don't you need to recoup some of that programming and development cost?

[David Kirkham]

501Cobra,

Good idea! I will look into putting part numbers on the block. You are right, it certainly can be a replacement block.

quickjack,

We had the billet heat treated before we even started. I didn't want the trouble of it warping after it was machined. You are right, by the time you count up the spindle time, I am sure there will be far more parts we make that we will have better margins with.

Steve,

I know you are just joking and it is interesting to look at raw material costs.

Actually, you can not buy aluminum for $1.50/pound. Forgings are more like $3-$5/pound and that does not include the price of tooling. We currently pay $2.25 for extrusion (not forgings) and over $3 for plate--when you can find it. The forging we had made was almost $2000.

Then add:

$125,000 milling machine
$100,000 in tooling, cutter, holders, etc.
$50,000 in CAD/CAM software
200 hours of design time
200 hours of programming
100 hours of proofing--(so far)

and I haven't even paid to turn on the lights yet, paid for opportunity costs, or received a guarantee that it will actually work and people will buy it.

As for material costs, the CAD/CAM programs that I paid $50,000 had a raw material cost of maybe 0.50 cents for the discs they came on.

The raw material costs for the Mona Lisa are probably a dollar.

BUT if you want the "best" raw material cost vs retail cost...

just talk to a lawyer!!!



I know you were just joking, and sometimes I wonder why things cost so much too. I am sure everyone realizes there is WAY more to making something than just the raw material cost of whatever you start with.

David

[David Kirkham]

Sal,

Good idea. I will look into it. But the engineering and tool paths are already done for the Nikasil lined bores. They would have to be bigger to accept a sleeve. For now I will see what happens on the dyno and the decide.

David I,

Repeat after me, "I need a new block. I need a new block. I need a new block..."

David
AKA little red devil

acschlary,

GREAT QUESTION! I had the same one myself. So, I started looking.

There is no side skirt on a Chev 350 and Jeff Gordon runs one at 9000 rpms for 500 miles every Sunday. Look at the Dart picture I posted...no skirt. F1 engines don't have a skirt. Most blocks don't have a skirt--very, very few have skirts. After looking at the real world and what was going on in the real world, I decided skirts were more effective in marketing engine blocks (and on women) than they were in going fast.

Commander,

Yes, I in my post I said, "See the picture of the Dart billet block with ribs and bolt on water jackets." I posted that picture so you could see you can still have bolt on water jackets and ribs. In an earlier post you said, "I object to calling it "moon glow" engineering instead of just admitting that it can't be done and still have the one long water jacket cover in the valley." So, I showed you a picture of where Dart solved the problem by using multiple bolt on water jackets.

We simply elected to not have ribs...or skirts.

Like I said, thank you all for your comments. Questions like these will all have to be answered so customers will feel comfortable buying one of our blocks. I appreciate ALL of the comments! The thing I understand most, however, is many of these questions will have to be answered ON THE DYNO.

David

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Steve;

If you can get me sheet aluminum in 3/4" thick for a $1.50 a pound, please let me know, I'll take a truck load of the stuff and I know of a few shops that will take an 18 wheeler load also..........

David

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

Steve,

I know you are just joking and it is interesting to look at raw material costs.

Actually, you can not buy aluminum for $1.50/pound. Forgings are more like $3-$5/pound and that does not include the price of tooling. We currently pay $2.25 for extrusion (not forgings) and over $3 for plate--when you can find it. The forging we had made was almost $2000.

Then add:

$125,000 milling machine
$100,000 in tooling, cutter, holders, etc.
$50,000 in CAD/CAM software
200 hours of design time
200 hours of programming
100 hours of proofing--(so far)

and I haven't even paid to turn on the lights yet, paid for opportunity costs, or received a guarantee that it will actually work and people will buy it.

If you already own the milling machine, most of the tooling, software, then you're mainly out the labor design/program/troubleshooting time for an investment.

[Commander]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

Here is a picture of DART's latest billet block with individual water jackets around the ribs.

David

Video of a billet block being Machined on a 5-axis CNC center

News Flash: F1 teams buying 5-axis Centers!!!!

[BossCER]

David,
Is there anything to report w/ regards to the progress of your new block?

[cosbytnkid]

I'm just wondering since this will be a sleeveless block, if a stroker kit can be installed? Is Nikisil that hard?

[Hank F]

Well said David!
Hank

[xlr8or]

David,
If you decide to do the heads and/or intake, how about a set of billet valve covers to go with it?

[mr bruce]

http://www.worldcastings.com/prods_pages/086210.htm

[mrmax]

David, you keep mentioning F1 motors while they are wonderous, they only are 3.5 liters (about 210 cubic inches). Pistons the size of maybe a 12 ounce soda can and most likely similar weight. Sure they spin up to 20k rpm but are not likely to produce stresses like 4.25 bore slug and rod combo. By the way nearly all superbike motors are inline 4 cyls. with exception of ducati and honda rc 51. Do you recall 2003 mustang cobra? Was supposed to be aluminium 4.6, block was at its limits with planned 400hp. Ford decided to nix aluminium and go with cast iron to avoid warranty claims from people who do such dastardly deeds as improve exhaust change pulleys etc. . As far as dyno time thats great but an engine dyno cannot accurately duplicate real world conditions thats why all major auto manufacturers have proving grounds. Put a finished motor in a car and thrash it like a customer might and see what happens after 50 or 60 k miles. I don't think this will be as easy or quick as most of us would like it to be. Also the 125 cubic inch motor in my kawi vulcan has a 4.125 bore and 5 inch stroke. It also is not sleeved kawaski engineers found piston speed to be such a problem they limited revs to 5250. it also is not a low perf motor 110hp 150ft lbs tq. This v configuration is a large consideration for side thrust loading in motors with big heavy rotating assemblies.

[David Kirkham]

Hank,

Thanks!

acschlary,

I decided against the splayed caps because I didn't see them used in F1 motors. Actually, the one I saw only had 2 bolts on the mains. (mrmax, I will comment more on F1 motors later).

mr bruce,

Thanks for the link!

quickjack,

I do agree.

rsimoes,

Thank you for your kind words. You car is looking KILLER! It will be done in a few days.

mrmax,

You said,

Originally Posted by mrmax

David, you keep mentioning F1 motors while they are wonderous, they only are 3.5 liters (about 210 cubic inches). Pistons the size of maybe a 12 ounce soda can and most likely similar weight. Sure they spin up to 20k rpm but are not likely to produce stresses like 4.25 bore slug and rod combo.

I imagine you may not be familiar with F1 and the incredible technology that goes into the sport. I have been fascinated with F1 technology, manufacturing, and technology for as long as I can remember. There is NOTHING like it on earth. (Well, perhaps the space shuttle, satellites, and military aircraft--but certainly no automotive engineering).

Just to keep things in perspective, Ferrari is rumored to have spent over $500,000,000 last season alone. (Now, we are talking military size budgets). I have customers who supply F1 with critical components. I have been to their shops, I have talked with the guys who make the parts. I have seen them make the parts. I even have some of their parts. I have seen their secrets (no, I can't tell). I can tell you it is unbelievable. If I could make something 1/10 as nice as some of the parts I have seen I will die and go to heaven straight away. I even keep some F1 parts on my desk to remind me EVERY DAY what the goal is. Interestingly, an F1 rear hub (steel) for $5,000 and it weighs 3.32 pounds (just weighed it) for a cost of $1506/pound.

Below, I have quoted directly from the F1 site.

http://www.formula1.com/insight/tech...fo/11/467.html

"The engine and transmission of a modern Formula One car are some of the most highly stressed pieces of machinery on the planet, and the competition to have the most power on the grid is still intense.

Revving to over 19,000 RPM a modern Formula One engine will consume a phenomenal 650 litres of air every second, with race fuel consumption typically around the 75 l/100 km (4 mpg) mark. Revving at such massive speeds equates to an accelerative force on the pistons of nearly 9,000 times gravity. Unsurprisingly, engine failure remains one of the most common causes of retirement in races." (Rumors are they are actually over 10,000 G's now)--added by David.

A typical engine (that we are used to in our cars) will turn about 6,000 rpms. The G loading according to this website

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=85349

is about 1,100 G's for a Chev 350--about 1/10th of an F1 engine. (I haven't checked his math, but it looks right on a cursory reading from my past experience). Granted, that is a Chev 350 and our blocks have longer rods and strokes (bore and weights don't have anything to do with the calculations) but let's double the Chev's 1,100 G's and say our monster Billet 427 generates a generous 2,000 G's and we are and still only 20% of an F1 motor. Their engineering is simply amazing.

The stresses on a engine go up with the SQUARE of the RPM's according to this formula. See link.

http://www.engineersedge.com/engine_...automotive.htm

Further, to add to the F1 block's misery, F1 engines are stressed members of the car.

Now, how does this equate to ribs?

Well, a Porsche flat 12 CAN'T have any ribs--by definition--you can't put ribs between cylinder banks that are on opposite sides of the crankshaft. They even have BOLT on jugs! Merlins (60 degree V-12) don't use ribs and they bolt their jugs on too. If F1's needed the strength to hold the heads together and keep the block from twisting, they would tie the heads together. But, they simply run the intake runners straight up out of the head ports and let the heads hang off in space unsupported. Stiffness between cylinder banks simply CAN'T be a problem in the applications we are talking about. How did I decide what to do? I just looked at what was out there, discussed it with very knowledgeable people, and made a decision--admittedly, standing on the shoulder's of giants.

Now, John Force making 10,000 hp, pulling 5 G's??? when he launches probably needs ribs (and a diaper) as I imagine he IS distorting the bores.

David

[David Kirkham]

Dean,

Thank you for your kind words!

I love your quote,

It's better to shoot for the moon and miss, than to aim for the gutter...and hit it.

I just hope I don't miss too often. But when I do, I get back up and try again.

David,

Thank you for the link! GREAT reading!

Evan,

Who knows? Maybe after you drive one of these babies you will convert to the dark side of modern technology to make things better?

Cobra Ed,

An FE crank is 79 pounds--not sure what a small block crank weighs.

An aluminum 427 flywheel from McLeod weighs 17 pounds.

A complete aluminum (block and heads) 427 engine weighs 558 pounds.

An complete iron (block and heads) 289 engine weighs 542 pounds.

Most people can't believe the big blocks of today are only 16 pounds heavier than the small blocks they raced with in the 60's. Technology is amazing...Evan...are you listening? I'm trying to convert you to the dark side...

Certainly the rotating assemblies of an FE are heavier...but not by much. And they are getting lighter every day...

Ryan,

Thanks for the post. Ryan was actually one of the engineers we spoke with on the project. Thanks for the help!

mrmax,

What most people don't realize is if you take a piece of steel (for example) and load it to 99% of it's ultimate tensile strength it will not break--obviously. BUT if you load it to 99% of its tensile strength a second time, it very well might break--EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE NOT EXCEEDED ITS "MAX" TENSILE STRENGTH. You see, it fatigues. Fatigue is the enemy of all mechanical things. But if you load a piece of steel to 50% of its UTS (ultimate tensile strength) you can load it millions upon millions upon millions of times. You are below what is called the "endurance limit" of the metal. At 20,000 rpms in an F1 motor, the piston is going up and down 333 times/second! It doesn't take long for things to fatigue and break at those unbelievable speeds/loads. Frankly, I can't for the life of me see how those engines stay together for even 1 lap.

Gatorac,

The new V-8 must be incredible. That much power out of only 2.4 liters!

Sizzler,

Even if it could be done, I doubt it would be cost effective. The girdle is 100 pounds of raw aluminum. Our girdle bolts around the caps. We do not have a wooden model...yet. But we will soon!

David

[REAL 1]

Dave: Amazing work. You guys are first rate craftsmen. My friends still are amazed at the workmanship of my Cobra's aluminum body and the quality of the frame and welds.

If my original FE ever goes south I would definitely consider your block.
Aside from a weight advantage what other advantage does your block have over the SAI block? Put in laymens terms please for the technically challenged.

May the force be with me.

BossCER: Yeah, your right, but thats why Shelby brought them back again with the Continuation series. But unlike Cobras, the SB are not automotive legends like the ol' BB and Cobras.

Maybe the pretend racers can now put REAL "moders" in them FPSBs. LOL.