Gun Control

[Paul F]

This is another pointless thread similar to the one about climate change. Everyone touts their position with nothing being accomplished in the way of convincing the other side of anything.

Perception and facts are often far apart. I'm guessing most people think the US is a more violent country in this last decade than perhaps in the 60's and 70's. It's not even close. Murders are half of what they were decades ago. I won't quote statistics because someone will debate them. But if you do your own research about violent crime rates by year, make your own conclusions.

No, I don't have an opinion about gun control because there is no way to evaluate cause and effect. It's simply not possible to state one way or the other how effective control would be. A countrie's culture and mindset are much more important than laws. We can see how effective drug laws are. No amount of laws will stop an addict. Society has said that using drugs are an acceptable form of behavior. It is commonly joked about on TV.

Like lemmings, people react to stimulation with a known response. If the current way to respond to your rage is a mass murder (for those with some emotional or mental issues), then that will be the response. If the current way to respond to your rage was to hang yourself, then that would be the response. This is true for all stimulation. When male friends used to meet, they shook hands. Now they hug. Really? Men hugging? 20 years ago you would have never imagined it.

So now we have this problem. Certain people now will respond to certain stimulants by deciding to do a mass murder. How does one counteract that? If guns were banned, then if someone did a mass murder by using a bomb (which are so easy to build) then what? Eliminating the current means of execution is unlikely a solution. There needs to be some other cultural change to make the response to rage/depression/or other mental issues something less than killing.

[Tenrocca]

Nice post Paul and agree with much of what your saying.

It is always very frustrating when your own opinion seems so logical and obvious that others do not share the same view point. It doesn't matter what I say there is never going to be that lightbulb moment from those with opposing views especially as it is so ingrained as a part of American history and culture.

What I do know though is that since 1996 when gun laws were brought in in Australia there has not been a single mass shooting. In the same period in the US there has been 55+ mass shootings resulting in 400+ deaths. One would have to be just a little bit stupid to suggest there is not a link between the availability of guns and the number of folk being shot in mass shootings?

Chaplin - I apologise if my use of the word "legitimate" purpose caused confusion.

Here you must be a primary producer, be a registered member of a sporting shooting club or require a firearm as part of your work (certain areas of security in addition to the obvious ones like police). These are what I consider legitimate reasons to hold a firearm licence.

Personal or home security is not considered a legitimate reason. In addition the type and style of weapon allowed was also restricted post the 1996 Port Arthur Massacre (eg. No Semi-Automatic). So when you are saying that a legitimate purchase is one that is made within the law (in the US), I am saying a legitimate purchase is one where the gun is ACTUALLY NEEDED.

As for background checks - they dont really work do they as Charleston church massacre demonstrates - he passed a background check despite being arrested for drug possesion. Plus ANYONE can buy a gun without a check at a gun show. I just think of the number of lunatics I work with that I wouldn't trust with a gun, even if it was 1% of 1%, out of that 200,000 guns sold on black friday that's potentionaly 20 new lunatics out there with a gun that shouldn't have one.

[Chaplin]

Originally Posted by Tenrocca

Here you must be a primary producer, be a registered member of a sporting shooting club or require a firearm as part of your work (certain areas of security in addition to the obvious ones like police). These are what I consider legitimate reasons to hold a firearm licence.

Personal or home security is not considered a legitimate reason.

So, it is ok to own a gun to shoot clay pigeons, but NOT to protect your life and the lives of your loved ones? And THAT is OK with you? Sorry, but that is insane. There is no more fundamental human right than the right to self-defense. If Australians have given that up, then they have surrendered a large piece of their freedom and personal liberty. Thank God for our Bill of Rights.

Here is a good read on the efficacy (or lack thereof) of gun control laws in various countries including your own Down Under. IMO, this article puts its finger on the root cause of the issue.

The Facts That Neither Side Wants To Admit About Gun Control

[Rjw289]

Tenrocca-please stay in Sydney.

[Tenrocca]

Originally Posted by Rjw289

Tenrocca-please stay in Sydney.

Little unfriendly don't you think young fella? Not welcome just because I have a view on this topic that differs from your own. Not that I would really want to leave Sydney anyway......



Thought I might find a sympathetic voice on this topic on a day you just saw another 14 of your countrymen killed by a coupe of lunatics with a gun, but alas......

[Ron61]

One hand gun against 3 guys with assault rifles?

I grew up with guns, taught gun classes, served in the military, and own guns and will continue to carry mine. If you want to know what good a hand gun would do against assault rifles, a lot more good than jumping up and crying that I don't believe in the right to have a gun or to defend yourself. I am not going to argue this point, but where do you think they get the assault rifles. I can go out here any day with money and buy any type of gun off the black market. The last big shooting we had here where 10 were killed was done by guns that dopers had stolen or gotten from the black market. I would much rather take my chances against assault rifles with a hand gun than nothing at all. They plan to kill you anyway so what do you have to lose.

Ron

[Tenrocca]

There are hundreds of articles and hard statistics debunking the self-defense myth:

Heres just one:
"....there were 8,342 criminal firearm homicides by private citizens (non-law enforcement members) in 2012 — as opposed to 259 justifiable homicides (self defense)"

That is 32 murders per 1 justifiable homicide with a gun. One could possible argue that if those 32 murdered had a gun they may not have been murdered. Given that 32% of Americans own a gun, that argument still would not explain the differential between murders and self defence.

The problem isnt that you have a gun Ron, the problem is that crazies also have guns. Telling the crazies from the decent folk is pretty tough, and one can become the other overnight.

More irrefutable evidence (to ignore):



Who would have thought...more guns = more death by guns.

Gotta love that outlier Hawaii though. Must be the sunshine making everyone happy.

[Ron61]

Actually I am not arguing your points per sae. We refused to issue permits to many who took the gun classes because of their attitudes. They then just went to another place and either got them or sued and the courts awarded them the right. But our constitution gives us the right to bear arms and this country came into being by armed rebels as the British referred to them. Also I live in a rather bad area which has one of the worst dope problems in the country and instead of doing anything about it they prefer to cover it up so as to not scare away any tourists. Stabbings of innocent people by dopers stealing stuff is so common they don't even make the news any more.

As for your statement that self defense is over stated, try telling that to the people who are alive and their families are alive today because they had a gun and shot back. This is not meant to be argumentative as I agree that a lot of people have guns legally that should not have them, but you just lump every gun owner into that category and it isn't true. And the statistics that you can quote I can find more to dispute as whoever posts those does so to suit their own agenda. The gun owners do so and so do the anti gun people. So don't take this as an attack on you personally as it is not meant to be. I just have certain rights and you or no one else has the right to impose your ideas on the rest of us as we don't tell you that you have to have a gun.

Ron

[JoeT]

Originally Posted by Tenrocca

There are hundreds of articles and hard statistics debunking the self-defense myth:

-snip-

More irrefutable evidence (to ignore):



Who would have thought...more guns = more death by guns.
.

Tenrocca,

It's interesting that you are ONLY concerned with FIREARM deaths. Myself, I'm concerned with all homicides. A little talked about fact, IN AUSTRALIA, where it's an (anti)gun utopia after the 2007 ban, homicides briefly increased and then LEVELED OFF to pre ban figures. People are still being killed, just not by gun. So I would think that translates to the "gun ban" had no effect on homicides. So you may be correct that "more gun = more gun crime", but the reality is that less guns actually have ZERO effect on actual homicides (which I think is what we are all really trying to reduce). Then take into account that the Homicide death in the US has actually decreased in the very same time period, while gun laws have actually loosened.

Then factor in that "deaths by firearms" include suicide and accidental deaths. Statistically 60% of all gun deaths in the US are suicides. The suicide rate in Australia is reported to be 11/100,000 verses the USA of 12.6/100,000. So unless you were one of the 1.6 per 100,000 I would think this is number is "negligible" due to other outlying factors (much like Japan having a significant higher rate than the US and Australia.


Oh, and for the record....using Mother Jones as a form of "authority" of anything is laughable.


On a side thought, don't think of yesterday as a Mass shooting, think of it as a terrorist attack, because that's what it was. The gun(s) were just the instrument used. Those people would be just as dead today if they uses a pressure cooker bomb (as they did in Boston) of detonated the IED's and pipebombs that they had at their home.

dead is dead and murdered is murdered. Knife, bat, bomb, car, bathtub, gun, or poisoning shouldn't matter.

Man has killed man since Kane killed Abel, new laws aren't going to change that...not today, and unfortunately not tomorrow.

[spookypt]

Good topic Tenrocca.

10 years ago my then American girlfriend lived/worked in Vegas but was born and bred in Alabama. We often discussed how the USA just loved their guns and I debated at length why they needed them.

After a few months of dating she asked me how I coped living in such a cold country...... like Austria!!!

Sometimes, people find it very hard to see from the inside out.

[KirkV]

So lets just say for ****s and giggles that the USA enacts a turn in your gun policy. So now all gun owners turn in their weapons, well except the illegal owners and criminals who have ground off the serial numbers on their stolen guns.

Now no legal law abiding citizen has a weapon but there are still millions of hidden guns that the criminals have to use against the law abiding citizen who can try to defend themselves with bow and arrow, hammers etc.

Even if the cops bust and collect every gun they can it would take a hundred years to collect the weapons that the criminals never turned in. Besides the guns that the black market would bring into the country for them to buy.

I just can't see it stopping what is happening in the mass murder shootings by somebody who is off their rocker for whatever reason?

It just won't work!

[kanuck]

I said you annoyed me with this thread and that I was going to buy a Glock out of spite, I changed my mind this is what I got instead. Ain't she a beauty.



Here are here two older brothers.



PS: The Business end. Now i can send 150gr, 250gr, and 350gr bullets all over 2000 FPS what a great country.

[bjretired]

Originally Posted by kanuck

I said you annoyed me with this thread and that I was going to buy a Glock out of spite, I changed my mind this is what I got instead. Ain't she a beauty.



Here are here two older brothers.



PS: The Business end. Now i can send 150gr, 250gr, and 350gr bullets all over 2000 FPS what a great country.

Nice collection. Our Sheriff say's get a gun, get a carry permit because he doesn't have the man power to protect you.

[kanuck]

"Nice collection"

You have no Idea I could have bought a FF5 kit for the same price as my Barrett 50 BMG.





"Our Sheriff say's get a gun, get a carry permit because he doesn't have the man power to protect you"

Good advise from a Smart Man

Dean

[JoeT]

Originally Posted by kanuck

"Our Sheriff say's get a gun, get a carry permit because he doesn't have the man power to protect you"

Good advise from a Smart Man

Dean

here's some more good advice from a smart man...

Move out of Detroit





I lived there in the early 90's. Opened a restaurant in the Renaissance Center. great business during the day, risk getting mugged when the sun went down

[bjretired]

Aren't AK47's all ready on the Ca. gun control list? They got them on the black market or smuggled them in, just like they can do in Ausseland. Their home was full of homemade bombs. This would have happened with or without your gun control. I'll keep my guns thank you.......

[bkozlow]

Just remember if it weren't for us gun toting Americans you would be writing in Japanese!

[kanuck]

Originally Posted by bkozlow

Just remember if it weren't for us gun toting Americans you would be writing in Japanese!

"That is because there is a rifle behind every blade of grass"

Admiral Yamamoto

Dean

[Large Arbor]

Tenrocca,

No disrepect intended, but your views have been tainted by liberal press. Read this link and educate yourself.

Gun-Free Zone Don't Save Lives -- Right to Carry Laws Do | National Review Online

PHIL

[DanEC]

And now Merry old England is contemplating some sort of ban on certain knives in response to an increasing murder rate. What next - baseball bats, canes, box cutters?

Recently a young girl with some sort of issue or disorder purposely ran down a bunch of people in a gathering in Oklahoma with her car, killing I believe 3 and severly injuring I don't know how many. She was so intent on it that she backed up and rammed forward into the crowd and obstacles a couple times. Given how crowded our cities are becoming, a car or truck is an ideal weapon to use to mow down a bunch of innocent people at once. So, I guess our cars will be the next subject of discussion for mandatory confiscation.