GM never,NEVER learns

[fsstnotch]

Originally Posted by SPF2245

Bullet, that is my point...the car is sitting there. The marketing group for GM established a fair price for the Camaro based off the current market, competition, profit and such. Then they advertise the price to the consumer, which leads to foot traffic into a dealer. Then the consumer sees the price on the car is not what is being asked…it’s higher. This is bad business, pure and simple. What would I do? I’d keep the price at MSRP, avoid the hook of one sale at a higher price while watching five other potential sales walk out the door after being told they’ve got to pay more or no test drives are allowed (my guess is most WON’T be back either). Your not selling a Ferrari…your selling a Chevy, and thus your market is driven off quantity of units sold, nothing else in the current GM marketing model (other then the ZR1) even should approach anything more or less. Think I’m wrong? Fine, how many dealers are closing, who filed bankruptcy, who hasn’t made a profit in how long, which dealers are currently not being praised by customers? GM has many faults, but I stand by my argument that the biggest problem between the product and customer isn’t the market, product or quality of the car but the dealers. The last few vehicles I’ve bought from Toyota or Honda have been an open test drive, MSRP fixed price and a new car sold and a unit moved for the dealer/automaker.

Yep, perfect!!! I have worked at several dealerships and friends with the owners of several more. Some of these dealerships are the, I'll mark it up until someone pays it. But many i know would rather deal in volume than price. They can sit on a car for months over msrp and make just as much or less than the same dealer selling more volume. And who do you think liiks better to the manufacturer? The guy selling 35 cars per year above msrp or the guy selling 365 cars per year at msrp? And I brought up the 35 because I read somewhere that one of the dealerships that was cut by GM had only sold 35 cars in an entire year!!!!! 35?!?! they were likely ready to fold up anywyas! haha

Bottom line, and I've heard it SOOOO many times on here. A cars value is equal to what someone will pay. EVENTUALLY, I'd bet they will sell that car to someone over msrp. Sad but true! My buddy bought a 97 2dr tahoe from florida for $3500 shipped. He drove it for almost 6 months in the winter salt, and then sold it for $7500! It's all about the finding the right buyer.

[Ron61]

427,

One of the best cars that my Father ever owned was a 1957 Buick. That car ran forever and required just the normal maintenance. And I don't remember a single thing breaking or falling off of it.

Fast forward to the years the Chevette was made. The company bought a bunch of them and what a joke they were. First time I drove one the outside rear view mirror fell off and was lost in traffic. Next time the 4 speed shifter handle broke. Then both sun visors fell off and landed in the floor. Then on our way to Pasadena, one of the small chrome strips on the outside fell off and the rear tire hit it and exploded. Finally managed to find a place we could get off the freeway and put the spare on. It was one of those space saver type, don't drive over 50 MPH and don't drive for more than 30 miles without stopping. Also it was one size to small so the car set at an angle until it too exploded. Finally got to a Chevron station and they had to hunt for a tire for that junk heap. Charged us $90 for it, but the company was paying and we didn't care if it was $190 by then. We had already spent 6 hours on a 4 hour trip. When we came home, just before we got to the office the rear end went out. For the only time in my life I was happy to see a car finally fall completely apart and they had to replace them.

Ron

[bulletbrown]

Cobrabill , would you buy that test driven Camaro ? Welcome to retail . Where the customer is always right.

[Wayne Maybury]

Originally Posted by bulletbrown

Ok, , you want to test drive the SS Camaro : beat the crap out of it , take it back, pass judgement, and tell me you will LET me know. I think I have had you on the lot already .

I would expect that you can tell the difference between a tire kicker and a serious potential buyer. I would also expect that your sales person could go along on the test drive to make sure that the customer doesn't just kick the crap out of the car. I could go to my local Ford dealer and try out a new Mustang GT in 10 minutes from now. What's so special about a Camaro anyway?

Edit for spelling.

Wayne

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by bulletbrown

Cobrabill , would you buy that test driven Camaro ? Welcome to retail . Where the customer is always right.

Good question.Probably not.But the question is irrelevant.Expecting a customer to buy a car without driving it first is the height of arrogance.The type of "GM arrogance" that got them in the position they are in today.


You can test drive a Challenger
You can test drive a Mustang

But you can't test drive a Camaro
and you couldn't(in 04) test drive a GTO.

See a pattern here?

And who cares if someone is hard on the car-that's what they are made for.Or are you worried about typical GM crapsmanship rearing it's ugly head and having the car break on a test drive?

In any event,those cars are called "demonstrators".After they've served there purpose,you sell them marked down as a "demonstrator".

What is so hard about this concept?
______________________________________________

C.an't
A.merica
M.ake
A
R.eal
O.ne

[cobra bill]

I had the same experience with dealer mark up when I purchased my Pontiac Solstice, every dealer within a 5 state radius was charging $5000 mark up on their cars, it wasn't until I finally found a dealer that would sell it at MSRP that I finally got mine, I have to say the car has been great, no issues what so ever, it was the dealerships that made it a bad experience.

[trularin]

Amazing that the president caught crap for a spoiler blowing off in this thread. What is up with that?

Yes, it is true; Automotive design engineers excreet parts at a moment's notice. Just so you all know, it takes a long a$$ time and they, the engineers, are rarely allowed to deliver what they think is best. A bean counter will make sure of that.

I maybe out of line, but this is getting way out of hand. You all act like this just happened. Rome wasn't burned in a day. These ( meaning not just GM ) companies didn't just suddenly go down the tubes. AND it isn't the fault of any one person.

This isn't a lounge, its a bit*h room where you all are carrying your baggage to unload it on someone.

Okay, Rant done.

[Wes Tausend]

...

When I was a kid, we had Fords. I used to admire the Chevy smallblock and I did like the style of the '55's. After my buddy wrecked my '57 Ford, he offered to sell me his brother-in-law's '54 Corvette for $700. I didn't care if it only had a six cylinder, I had always admired any kind of sports car, usually English. But I couldn't get my father to co-sign a partial loan strictly because it was a Chevy. I had stuck all my money into the defunct Ford. Dad was a Ford man.

A few years hence, my new wife loved Chevy's. My father-in-law worked in a Chevy/John Deere garage. My brother-in-law was shop foreman in a different Chevy garage. Eventually I had Chevy's.

Today, our 2000 Impala is for sale. And the 1995 Corvette, too. I don't hate them, it's just luck-of-the-draw that we are selling them. The new Corvettes are amazing. For the money, I really liked GM engineering. Up until senior management dismantled the team and put the kabosh on offering electric cars, anyway. The hurry-up Volt is 90% hype. The workable hybrid Silverado's/Tahoe's are scarcer than hens teeth. Almost like they planned it. Dummies.

So we bought a Toyota Prius. Nothing beats it at it's own game. It's cheap. It's here. And it drives nice. They quietly introduced it ...and it sold itself well ...to the embarrassment of even their own other offerings. Corporate Japan knew better than to kill the econo branch. Both Honda and Toyota econobox teams do well.

And now we bought a used Ford Excursion. They quit making them in 2006. Because of treehuggers. Yeah, it's a gas hog, one of the very worst when empty, with huge 10.5 inch gears and a six by four inch ton and a half frame. But it also does what it does extremely well ...it tows like a truck. It is a truck. A stable 3/4 ton. It outweighs the 3/4 ton Suburban by 1500 pounds, but gets about the same mileage towing. And I like the idea that Ford is still on it's own two feet. Long live Ford. I guess I drove my Chevy to the levy ...and left it there.

Wes

...

[427sharpe]

Originally Posted by Wes Tausend

...

I guess I drove my Chevy to the levy ...and left it there.

Wes

...

Did you say 'bye, bye' and go home to American pie?

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by SPF2245

...

The last few vehicles I’ve bought from Toyota or Honda have been an open test drive, MSRP fixed price and a new car sold and a unit moved for the dealer/automaker.

A few years ago my brother was interested in the Honda minivan after one of his cars died. He was told it would be a several month wait and several thousand dollars over MSRP. So it's not just the big 3 dealers that like to mark them up. My brother ended up getting a Dodge Caravan.

Seriously if you were a Chevy dealer and knew that you would only get a few Camaros this year and you saw that there was demand to sell dozens of them, wouldn't you consider marking it up a bit. If you sell at MSRP, the Camaro might come right off the truck to the customer, and then you have no
Camaro in the showroom for people to look at.

[jbuchert]

Theres a lot of bias in here.

I see a lot of refferences to the mid to late 70's era GM cars being junk.. everything built in the mid to late 70's was crap reguardless of the manufacturer.... we all know very little has changed since then also lol.

And like mentioned earlier, those front spoilers are dealer installed as are the side skirts ect... Some of you may be blind to this fact but there are idiots working at Ford dealers also.

As for sticker mark up, I have seen Ford do the same thing as with others.

GM has a completely new line up from the ground up where Ford has a trend of putting face lifts on aged platforms. In my line of work I have the pleasure of cutting cars/trucks appart of all makes/models and piecing them back together. I see, repair, pull, replace parts of these vehicles that 99% of you will never see. I wont bash any one manufacturer but I will say "in my personal oppinion" GM is building some of the better cars/trucks on the road today.

[Buzz]

jbuchert, from your perspective, is it the case then, that the build quality of the US manufacturers' current products has closed the gap on the European and Japanese competition and they are just stuck with a lingering legacy of their mistakes in the '70's and '80's?

[427sharpe]

Yes, I am extremely biased. I buy American. As for Ford and trends, may reconsider that as Fords overall platform ages are among the newest....

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by jbuchert

Theres a lot of bias in here.

1)I see a lot of refferences to the mid to late 70's era GM cars being junk.. everything built in the mid to late 70's was crap reguardless of the manufacturer.... we all know very little has changed since then also lol.

2)And like mentioned earlier, those front spoilers are dealer installed as are the side skirts ect... Some of you may be blind to this fact but there are idiots working at Ford dealers also.

3)As for sticker mark up, I have seen Ford do the same thing as with others.

4)GM has a completely new line up from the ground up where Ford has a trend of putting face lifts on aged platforms. In my line of work I have the pleasure of cutting cars/trucks appart of all makes/models and piecing them back together. I see, repair, pull, replace parts of these vehicles that 99% of you will never see. I wont bash any one manufacturer but I will say "in my personal oppinion" GM is building some of the better cars/trucks on the road today.

1)But, we are talking about GM.THe last innovative thing GM did was the Corvair.
2)I don't care wether they're factory installed,dealer installed or they re-animated Duntov and he installed them himself.You don't let something like this leave the dealer.
3)Again,we're not talking about Ford.
4)You have that EXACTLY backwards.

I've since found out that the Camaro i saw is/was the only one in town.And a friend of mine who is "Joe Chevy owner"talks to both dealers on a regular basis.BOTH have told him that they will NOT order a "display car".Each Camaro that comes in gets sold.With all the hype this car is or should be getting,no showroom car to get traffic in the dealer?What the hell is wrong with these people?

[fsstnotch]

To me, a sold car is worth more to me than one on display. If I want a car for display I'd have an old corvette or somehting in the showroom.

So what exactly does GM have out that is NEW and not just a name change of a vehicle before? The lot I was working at before I came over to Bagram had just taken a 1500silverado hybrid in as trade before I left. I got to drive it for a week as my demo car and it SUCKED!!! It was a regular cab with cloth and it got worse gas mileage than my F250 did and my 250 was a crewcab, lifted, 35" mud tires, leather!

[SPF2245]

Ok, let's look at the arguement for "selling a car higher" because of limited production numbers to be allocated to each dealer. If you're allowed X number of cars, and hold on to them to try and sell them at a higher price...what you've done is slow demand for the car. If you sell out of the vehicle, what does that tell the marketing and production lines? It tells them to produce MORE and gets the marketing guys to look at the reason for the increase in sales to introduce those concepts/ideas into other product lines. If not, all you've done is slowed down the demand which hurts alot worse then the potential loss of a couple thousand dollars extra profit over MSRP. That is why the Mustang has basiclly always kicked the f-body in the butt in sales numbers. The dealers sell them quickly and keep demand high. The reverse is the GT500, look on yahoo autos for how many dealer marked up '08s are still sitting on the lot with prices over MSRP verses how many dealers are currently selling numerous '09s at MSRP.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by SPF2245

Ok, let's look at the arguement for "selling a car higher" because of limited production numbers to be allocated to each dealer. If you're allowed X number of cars, and hold on to them to try and sell them at a higher price...what you've done is slow demand for the car. If you sell out of the vehicle, what does that tell the marketing and production lines? It tells them to produce MORE and gets the marketing guys to look at the reason for the increase in sales to introduce those concepts/ideas into other product lines. If not, all you've done is slowed down the demand which hurts alot worse then the potential loss of a couple thousand dollars extra profit over MSRP. That is why the Mustang has basiclly always kicked the f-body in the butt in sales numbers. The dealers sell them quickly and keep demand high. The reverse is the GT500, look on yahoo autos for how many dealer marked up '08s are still sitting on the lot with prices over MSRP verses how many dealers are currently selling numerous '09s at MSRP.

If you're only allowed X number of cars, isn't that because, marketing and production planning has already slowed demand for you? I'm not sure "slowing demand" makes sense. The demand will probably remain, but the supply is limited. If you really want a new Camaro (or GT500, etc), you might just wait until the initial hype is over and get the car later. That argument falls apart for the buyer who thinks that Camaro, Mustang, Miata, Mini, Hummer and Caravan are all interchangeable good choices. In that case, Chevy does lose out on a sale. But Chevy is not going to lose out to the Camaro fan who thinks only the new Camaro will do.

Perhaps marketing and product planning should be adding more shifts and putting together more tooling for another plant and getting more idled worker busy making more Camaros. Perhaps they have anticipated a surge of demand in the beginning that will not be sustained in the long run. If so, scaling up production to meet the initial surge might be problematic with having to cut back on extra shifts, etc.

[SPF2245]

1nt, I'd agree with some of the arguements...but, considering where GM is at, I'd go for overproduction to match current demand. At this point, a lost sale hurts worse then the potential of a glut of unsold cars sitting on the lot a year from now. Part of the appeal of the new model, is to get those who'd show up to the lot just to see the car into actually purchasing the car (and that works well for Ford and such that have the models on the lot). But if your going to tell people they can't test drive, must pay over the price of MSRP, or not have them in stock...your cutting your own throat. But, hey...what do I know other then GM has lost my business in the past doing all the stated above and now I drive a Toyota, and my wife won't even step foot on a Chevy lot.

[wizard man]

never mine the tape on the spoiler cobra de capell where are the breasts located

[fsstnotch]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

If you're only allowed X number of cars, isn't that because, marketing and production planning has already slowed demand for you? I'm not sure "slowing demand" makes sense. The demand will probably remain, but the supply is limited. If you really want a new Camaro (or GT500, etc), you might just wait until the initial hype is over and get the car later. That argument falls apart for the buyer who thinks that Camaro, Mustang, Miata, Mini, Hummer and Caravan are all interchangeable good choices. In that case, Chevy does lose out on a sale. But Chevy is not going to lose out to the Camaro fan who thinks only the new Camaro will do.

Perhaps marketing and product planning should be adding more shifts and putting together more tooling for another plant and getting more idled worker busy making more Camaros. Perhaps they have anticipated a surge of demand in the beginning that will not be sustained in the long run. If so, scaling up production to meet the initial surge might be problematic with having to cut back on extra shifts, etc.

So basically, and don't take it the wrong way, I get from this that it is ok to gouge the consumer.... as long as they are loyal to you!