4000 series hub / upright / spidle options

[bret a ewing]

Has this issue been corrected in the later CSX #'s? What number did the problem start and end?

[RICK LAKE]

Franklin You would sell a car to someone else with a POSSIBLE DEFECT and say nothing about it for the sale??? Changing the front end on one car to the next is not a 10 minute job. From the readings Kirkham front suspension doesn't have the same anything until you are at the frame. Not even sure if the A-Arms will bolt up between the 2. The next problem would be Camber, caster, toe, bump steering, and acherman turning radius. This is some of the problems with guys on this forum with bad handling cars. I have gone for a few rides in some cars that have been setup for handling and driving. They perform nothing like the street versions of most cobras. A cobra with 15" wheels to get max speed and turning out of, needs to be drifted into turns or oversteered. It's fun to do but the car is slowed from tire scrubbing. Cars with 17" and up tires are driving a whole different way. Point and drive, if you want to drift the car it's alot harder and IMO I have tryed and don't like the feeling of control. I agree with your other idea, If Shelby Racer want an aluminum body or even fiberglass, should have done more homework and may have ended up going with a Kirkham or one of the other brands and saved himself 5-10 grand for a name. I have 3 parts from SAI and payed $25.00 more for a timing cover with CS on it and the Shelby blocks are about $500.00 for CSX058, and CSX 428 was over $1000.00 to match the number of my car from ERA. I know what I was doing and have no problem with this. I knew it going into the deals. I had nothing but great help from Mike Lefevers at that time. I think for SAI best interest they will resolve this problem without alot of extra activity. Rick L.

[Bernica]

The guys at SAI are good folks. They should be able to help and walk you through this. They stand behind their product.

[Three Peaks]

Unless they made some major revisions in this particular vehicle, I can't understand why they don't just take one of their off-the-shelf spindles and take care of this problem. Should be a bolt in proposition- of course then you would need a new alignment, etc... but at least this problem would be solved.

Hopefully, SAI will step up to the plate and get this done since this is really their mistake, and not really a warranty issue as much as a piss poor design and safety issue.

Hope you get it resolved with SAI quickly so you can enjoy the summer driving season.

Bob

[shelby racer]

Originally Posted by Three Peaks

Unless they made some major revisions in this particular vehicle, I can't understand why they don't just take one of their off-the-shelf spindles and take care of this problem. Should be a bolt in proposition- of course then you would need a new alignment, etc... but at least this problem would be solved.

Hopefully, SAI will step up to the plate and get this done since this is really their mistake, and not really a warranty issue as much as a piss poor design and safety issue.

Hope you get it resolved with SAI quickly so you can enjoy the summer driving season.

Bob

Exactly what I was hoping for - to just send me new parts to take care of the problem. The say they don't have anything different available right now. It is funny that several people have suggested giving my car back to SAI and asking for a new roller and transfering the csx vin number and bascially starting fresh and letting them do what ever they want with the old roller (crush it, study it, re-vin it). Unfortunately It will still involve A LOT of labor to transfer the parts I have added to make it a car (assuming that they would fit on the new chassis - ever wonder why the header kit is a bunch of tubes that need to be cut / fit / welded?). Something tells me that they don't want to build me another car - even though that may have been the right thing to do when I had my first set of problems. Probably would have avoided a lot of what I have had to go through since.

[shelby racer]

Originally Posted by Bernica

The guys at SAI are good folks. They should be able to help and walk you through this. They stand behind their product.

I agree 100% that the guys at SAI are great. I think I just got a lemon and it was worse than anyone wants to think or admit. The old SAI (company) had real issues, but the new SAI has been like a totally different company. I also just think that they don't know what to do with me and the car. Someone from the old company told me that the reason why I was having so many problems originally was because "it was a cobra and I just don't know what I am doing". He appologozed when I brought it back to Las Vegas and he saw it for himself.
The funniest thing is when I called Kirkham this week to see if they had parts or suggestions on how to fix my front end I was also told that "I didn't know what I was talking about" - but in this case it was a matter of lingo and calling the parts by the right name and defining what I meant when I talked about the front end being servicable. By the end of the conversation we were both exactly on the same page - and they had a solution - a whole new front end.

[Power Surge]

What exactly is the problem? Is is that the allen head bolts that are behind the rotor that bolt the two chunks of aluminum for the upright together are loose? If so, can't you get to them with a cut down allen wrench? If not, what about just drilling through the back of the block and tapping the other section and then putting a bolt in from behind with some loctite? As mentioned, you should be able to adjust the front end with the control arms.

As for the previous style (like my car), it's the same thing, just with an original style upright instead of the billet. And the original uprights are weak loads of crap.

[shelby racer]

Originally Posted by Power Surge

What exactly is the problem? Is is that the allen head bolts that are behind the rotor that bolt the two chunks of aluminum for the upright together are loose? If so, can't you get to them with a cut down allen wrench? If not, what about just drilling through the back of the block and tapping the other section and then putting a bolt in from behind with some loctite? As mentioned, you should be able to adjust the front end with the control arms.

As for the previous style (like my car), it's the same thing, just with an original style upright instead of the billet. And the original uprights are weak loads of crap.

Lets see now. Yes the allen head bolts are loose so when you stop or accelerate the caster changes and the bolts are trying to be sheared, to serice the rotor you have to take the whole upright and steering arm off the control arms and ties rod arm and then press the spindle off the hub. The front part of the upright is slotted so a new piece would have to be fabricated if you wanted to drill though the back and tap it. You can not get any allen wrench into the space or make it work sincethe clearence between it and the rotor is less that the diameter of an 8mm or 5/16 allen wrench and the heads are recessed in the slot inside the upper part of the block on the front of the upright and you can not ever see the the allen head which is at the lower part of the same block.......

[mickmate]

Talking with 4000 owners I had heard of issues with some early front billet uprights with undersize bolts holding the upper ball joint bracket on giving problems. It was resolved with a beefier bracket and larger bolts I believe. Replacement single piece cast uprights are available.

[shelby racer]

Originally Posted by mickmate

Talking with 4000 owners I had heard of issues with some early front billet uprights with undersize bolts holding the upper ball joint bracket on giving problems. It was resolved with a beefier bracket and larger bolts I believe. Replacement single piece cast uprights are available.

I was told when I brought my car to Las Vegas that I had the original design that people had had problems with (eg failed) that I already knew about long before my frame was built. I assumed that since the problem had already been doccumented that they would not put them on my car (instead of dealing with it when they ran out of parts or if it became a problem). I was told that they had swapped them out fro the newer design that solved the issue. May be I did or maybe I didn't or maybe the ones I got were a interim solution that they thought / hoped would solve the problem (kind of like the hood scoops on the 07 / 08 Shelby GT mustangs that almost all have warped..... that after many tries, they still don't have a final solution for - although a warped hood scoop won't kill you or any one else). I don't know, I just want to stop having problems with the car and to be able to enjoy it. I really don't think that that is too much to ask.

[mickmate]

I was just looking at the only picture of it we've seen. You see they slotted that upper bracket for caster adjustment which is unnecessary as the lower arms are adjustable and usually the uppers are too.

[shelby racer]

Originally Posted by mickmate

I was just looking at the only picture of it we've seen. You see they slotted that upper bracket for caster adjustment which is unnecessary as the lower arms are adjustable and usually the uppers are too.

Yes, they are slotted for caster - but in order to adjust them, you have to take the rotor off........... My $1,000 alignment - corner / cross weight, ride height setting was done with the control arms not the uprights. I don't even want to think about what the labor would cost to adjust the caster that way. Who designed these and why. 3000's didn't have them. The 4000s did not have them and I am finding out that not all the 4700s have them. Other companies don't make them this way......

[RodKnock]

I'm just spitballin' here, but I would get your CSX on a lift as well as another owner's CSX on the lift, but the other CSX will have the proper setup. I would take lots of pictures, even burn a DVD with someone who knows what they're doing when it comes to front suspensions and such. Assuming everything is not right as you expect, I would then send these pics with the DVD and DEMAND that SAI R&R anything and everything that is not safe. If no response, then do it again and maybe again until such time that you feel SAI isn't going to do anything for you. Consult an attorney, preferably a product liability attorney and then proceed with a claim. Once a claim is filed, there would be deadlines that have to be met, discovery (questions), blah, blah, subpoenas, document requests, etc.

I don't know the statute of limitations on this type of product liability, but that's what consulting an attorney would help with. Someone could guide you in the initial stages and help you along the way.

More spitballing, but there are Cobra experts in the Bay Area that can help you, but they will cost money, as an attorney would. You can spend $5,000-$10,000 with an attorney, or $5,000-$10,000 with a knowledgeable mechanic that will order the right parts and permanently fix it. Pure speculation on the money figures, since I'm not an attorney nor a mechanic.

Alternatively, you can ship the car to SAI and leave it with them to fix it.

Sorry, but when you or I, or anyone spends $50,000-$150,000 on one of these cars, they deserve customer satisfaction. Again, just my humble $0.02.

[shelby racer]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I'm just spitballin' here, but I would get your CSX on a lift as well as another owner's CSX on the lift, but the other CSX will have the proper setup. I would take lots of pictures, even burn a DVD with someone who knows what they're doing when it comes to front suspensions and such. Assuming everything is not right as you expect, I would then send these pics with the DVD and DEMAND that SAI R&R anything and everything that is not safe. If no response, then do it again and maybe again until such time that you feel SAI isn't going to do anything for you. Consult an attorney, preferably a product liability attorney and then proceed with a claim. Once a claim is filed, there would be deadlines that have to be met, discovery (questions), blah, blah, subpoenas, document requests, etc.

I don't know the statute of limitations on this type of product liability, but that's what consulting an attorney would help with. Someone could guide you in the initial stages and help you along the way.

More spitballing, but there are Cobra experts in the Bay Area that can help you, but they will cost money, as an attorney would. You can spend $5,000-$10,000 with an attorney, or $5,000-$10,000 with a knowledgeable mechanic that will order the right parts and permanently fix it. Pure speculation on the money figures, since I'm not an attorney nor a mechanic.

Alternatively, you can ship the car to SAI and leave it with them to fix it.

Sorry, but when you or I, or anyone spends $50,000-$150,000 on one of these cars, they deserve customer satisfaction. Again, just my humble $0.02.

Thanks Rod Knock - one thing that is also holding me back is the cost to trying to do a law suit. Shelby obviously has lawyers on retainer (considering how he likes to sue everyone). The money it would cost me to win a suit would be more than the $4,000 it would cost to just buy a properly designed Kirkham suspension. I don't have the money for either. I am just trying to keep my house right now (no job = very little income - if you want a real laugh, check out property values in the Bay Area even though they are depressed , they are still rediculous). I also don't know who has a properly built 4700 series - although the new SAAC registry might come in handy to start trying to figure that out - if such a beast exists. Now a class action law suit due to prodcut liability and safety might get some attention. And to think, if there was an easy (if not the cheapest in the short run) solution to my problem available from SAI - OMG have they screwed themselves in the long run (beside what a class action suit would do to their reputation.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by shelby racer

The money it would cost me to win a suit would be more than the $4,000 it would cost to just buy a properly designed Kirkham suspension. I don't have the money for either.

If I were you I would re-check that $4,000 figure, it seems a little low. Right now Kirkham is charging somewhere in the high teens for the original type suspension, and that is an UPGRADE price, meaning it is over and above what you are already paying for their billet suspension. Granted you only need the front, but this $4K figure seems very light to me. I wish you the best of luck, this seems like a real mess. If it was me I'd like some face time. Working on the phone is sometimes counter productive. A one on one over some lunch is sometimes a real ice breaker.

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

If I were you I would re-check that $4,000 figure, it seems a little low. Right now Kirkham is charging somewhere in the high teens for the original type suspension, and that is an UPGRADE price, meaning it is over and above what you are already paying for their billet suspension. Granted you only need the front, but this $4K figure seems very light to me. I wish you the best of luck, this seems like a real mess. If it was me I'd like some face time. Working on the phone is sometimes counter productive. A one on one over some lunch is sometimes a real ice breaker.

That's for ORIGINAL type suspension with Girling brakes.

[RICK LAKE]

Shelby Racer John, thanks for the pictures. Now for the bad news.IMO and I am not a person that did 4-8 years of college, this setup is junk in my eyes.
#1 the upper support is bolted to the splindle plate. How many bolts are in this? 2, or 3? Why is it not welded or both?? This looks like something a 10 year built with a band saw and drill press.
#2 There are NO washers on the bottom of the Allen heads bolts to help spread out the load to the flat plate.
#3 What material is the assembly made with? Part steel, Part Aluminum? I work on Vettes, C4 and up. The hub assemblys are 4 bolt to the spindle with 10mm threaded bolts with loctite. The hubs look the same as 1/2 ton truck units. This micky mouse setup scares me just to look at. If this was the original setup from the 60's no wonder they had wobbling in turns from the side load put on this setup. I know they are ran wire wheels until mags came along.
#4 An Axle nut that is pined to hold this assembly together, IMO is not as strong as a solid splindle to hold a brake rotor to the spindle. How do you load the bearings on this setup?? You can perload them, roadtest the car a couple of times, but then need to recheck them for wheel play and tighen them until you get a lite drag. This works good on a pinion setup for a rearend of a car but not where you need only 5-10 inch pounds of drag on the hub for the bearings to be set. Too tight and you wear out the bearings.
#5 Heat cycles will also cause a problem with looseness. Any combo of steel an Aluminum will cause to different metals expanding and contracting at to different speeds. This is why on my hats and rotors every bolt is safty wired to the next to pervent the bolts coming loose. I see no safety wire on any of these bolts in the pictures. If the nuts are nyloc, that's OK unless they are under extreme heat and the nyloc plastic melts.
#6 The lower ball joint is CLAMPED to the splindle plate??? 2 bolts taking almost 1"G" and all the weight of the car?? Mine are pressed in and now tack welded to insure they don't come loose.
I will get off my soap box now and let the smarter people hand this. I am gald that I didn't have the money to buy a CSX car for the POOR ENGINEERING DESIGNS I see in this car with a valve of $100K. There are 12 year old kids from India that could do a better job in design an this. I can see why they have changed the design if this is true. I wonder how many other Shelby owners with this frontend setup have had problems or have a problem and just don't know it with this series of car??? This could have been engineered so much better and make have even saved money for SAI. Anybody get a low speed vibration in the car when cruising or a come and go vibration in the steering wheel? I would jack up the front end and try and see if there is ANY PLAY. If there is, Locate it and have it checked and fixed. Rick L.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by Power Surge

That's for ORIGINAL type suspension with Girling brakes.

Which is what he would need, no? Are you saying that he should put the shiny, blingy Billet suspension on his Shelby?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

1) If I were you I would re-check that $4,000 figure, it seems a little low.

2) If it was me I'd like some face time. Working on the phone is sometimes counter productive. A one on one over some lunch is sometimes a real ice breaker.

Two pieces of excellent advice. Take Amy out to lunch to go over the whole mess with her again (who knows, maybe she's read some of this thread and is just hoping it goes away). I think the solution will involve a "negotiated cost sharing" to either put in the new and improved SAI front end or the tried and true Kirkham front end. Either way, I would bet $4000 is a very conservative cost estimate. But remember, you are totally without fault here... and SAI should be reminded of that fact.

[Got the Bug]

John,

Best of luck to you! Keep escalating this within SAI and make sure they know that this issue is also getting a lot of visibility within the Cobra community.

Have a couple of documented plans in your back pocket so Shelby is clear regarding your expectations and the costs to remedy the situation. I've found that if there is no doubt and people are crystal clear regarding what I want, they can "run it up the flagpole" and get the appropriate sign offs to make it happen. My wife always laughs and says, "how do you stay so calm when people have pixxed you off?" I tell her that I'm going to get what I want....they just don't know it yet.

Just sent you an email with a couple of other ideas.