4000 series hub / upright / spidle options

[shelby racer]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

That's the whole point of what we're trying to tell you, SR - you don't NEED another supplier - Shelby no longer uses this screwed up system, they have a fine suspension right now, they are using it as we speak on cars they are building TODAY! It will fit right onto your car with no modifications at all, and your car will still be 100% Shelby, as it should be. In order to use these properly designed parts you will need to replace everything on both sides of the car in the front from the frame attach points outward. They are telling you that they have no parts to help you because they are trying to replace your terribly engineered parts with replacements that are exactly as you have now - terribly engineered. They don't want to give you a complete new front suspension because that costs significantly more, and it may very well open floodgates of complaints with guys who have the same bogus setup that you have. It may be true that they don't want to replace your entire front suspension, but the claim that they don't have parts that fit is laughable. Ask them if they are building any cars this week, and if so where the parts are coming from. When they answer tell them to pick up the phone and order more! They're pissing on your leg and telling you it's raining!

Hmmmm - if this is true - they REALLY screwed the pooch (and I would know since I am a dog and cat vet). I tried talking with them privately. I tried to resolve this with no drama. I talked to them about the problem and had my mechanic talk to them so that there would be no misunderstanding. I checked with more than once. After being told that they had NO fix or better parts to replace my bad ones, I turned to the web for support and guidance. Maybe - somehow they didn't understand what I had but by not taking care of the problem they really have opened a whole can of worms that is probably not going to end with me (which is what would have happened). Next week should be interesting. I think I am going to be spending a lot of time on the phone with Las Vegas.

[RodKnock]

I'm just spitballin' here, but I would get your CSX on a lift as well as another owner's CSX on the lift, but the other CSX will have the proper setup. I would take lots of pictures, even burn a DVD with someone who knows what they're doing when it comes to front suspensions and such. Assuming everything is not right as you expect, I would then send these pics with the DVD and DEMAND that SAI R&R anything and everything that is not safe. If no response, then do it again and maybe again until such time that you feel SAI isn't going to do anything for you. Consult an attorney, preferably a product liability attorney and then proceed with a claim. Once a claim is filed, there would be deadlines that have to be met, discovery (questions), blah, blah, subpoenas, document requests, etc.

I don't know the statute of limitations on this type of product liability, but that's what consulting an attorney would help with. Someone could guide you in the initial stages and help you along the way.

More spitballing, but there are Cobra experts in the Bay Area that can help you, but they will cost money, as an attorney would. You can spend $5,000-$10,000 with an attorney, or $5,000-$10,000 with a knowledgeable mechanic that will order the right parts and permanently fix it. Pure speculation on the money figures, since I'm not an attorney nor a mechanic.

Alternatively, you can ship the car to SAI and leave it with them to fix it.

Sorry, but when you or I, or anyone spends $50,000-$150,000 on one of these cars, they deserve customer satisfaction. Again, just my humble $0.02.

[shelby racer]

Originally Posted by Power Surge

What exactly is the problem? Is is that the allen head bolts that are behind the rotor that bolt the two chunks of aluminum for the upright together are loose? If so, can't you get to them with a cut down allen wrench? If not, what about just drilling through the back of the block and tapping the other section and then putting a bolt in from behind with some loctite? As mentioned, you should be able to adjust the front end with the control arms.

As for the previous style (like my car), it's the same thing, just with an original style upright instead of the billet. And the original uprights are weak loads of crap.

Lets see now. Yes the allen head bolts are loose so when you stop or accelerate the caster changes and the bolts are trying to be sheared, to serice the rotor you have to take the whole upright and steering arm off the control arms and ties rod arm and then press the spindle off the hub. The front part of the upright is slotted so a new piece would have to be fabricated if you wanted to drill though the back and tap it. You can not get any allen wrench into the space or make it work sincethe clearence between it and the rotor is less that the diameter of an 8mm or 5/16 allen wrench and the heads are recessed in the slot inside the upper part of the block on the front of the upright and you can not ever see the the allen head which is at the lower part of the same block.......

[shelby racer]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I'm just spitballin' here, but I would get your CSX on a lift as well as another owner's CSX on the lift, but the other CSX will have the proper setup. I would take lots of pictures, even burn a DVD with someone who knows what they're doing when it comes to front suspensions and such. Assuming everything is not right as you expect, I would then send these pics with the DVD and DEMAND that SAI R&R anything and everything that is not safe. If no response, then do it again and maybe again until such time that you feel SAI isn't going to do anything for you. Consult an attorney, preferably a product liability attorney and then proceed with a claim. Once a claim is filed, there would be deadlines that have to be met, discovery (questions), blah, blah, subpoenas, document requests, etc.

I don't know the statute of limitations on this type of product liability, but that's what consulting an attorney would help with. Someone could guide you in the initial stages and help you along the way.

More spitballing, but there are Cobra experts in the Bay Area that can help you, but they will cost money, as an attorney would. You can spend $5,000-$10,000 with an attorney, or $5,000-$10,000 with a knowledgeable mechanic that will order the right parts and permanently fix it. Pure speculation on the money figures, since I'm not an attorney nor a mechanic.

Alternatively, you can ship the car to SAI and leave it with them to fix it.

Sorry, but when you or I, or anyone spends $50,000-$150,000 on one of these cars, they deserve customer satisfaction. Again, just my humble $0.02.

Thanks Rod Knock - one thing that is also holding me back is the cost to trying to do a law suit. Shelby obviously has lawyers on retainer (considering how he likes to sue everyone). The money it would cost me to win a suit would be more than the $4,000 it would cost to just buy a properly designed Kirkham suspension. I don't have the money for either. I am just trying to keep my house right now (no job = very little income - if you want a real laugh, check out property values in the Bay Area even though they are depressed , they are still rediculous). I also don't know who has a properly built 4700 series - although the new SAAC registry might come in handy to start trying to figure that out - if such a beast exists. Now a class action law suit due to prodcut liability and safety might get some attention. And to think, if there was an easy (if not the cheapest in the short run) solution to my problem available from SAI - OMG have they screwed themselves in the long run (beside what a class action suit would do to their reputation.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by shelby racer

The money it would cost me to win a suit would be more than the $4,000 it would cost to just buy a properly designed Kirkham suspension. I don't have the money for either.

If I were you I would re-check that $4,000 figure, it seems a little low. Right now Kirkham is charging somewhere in the high teens for the original type suspension, and that is an UPGRADE price, meaning it is over and above what you are already paying for their billet suspension. Granted you only need the front, but this $4K figure seems very light to me. I wish you the best of luck, this seems like a real mess. If it was me I'd like some face time. Working on the phone is sometimes counter productive. A one on one over some lunch is sometimes a real ice breaker.

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

If I were you I would re-check that $4,000 figure, it seems a little low. Right now Kirkham is charging somewhere in the high teens for the original type suspension, and that is an UPGRADE price, meaning it is over and above what you are already paying for their billet suspension. Granted you only need the front, but this $4K figure seems very light to me. I wish you the best of luck, this seems like a real mess. If it was me I'd like some face time. Working on the phone is sometimes counter productive. A one on one over some lunch is sometimes a real ice breaker.

That's for ORIGINAL type suspension with Girling brakes.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

1) If I were you I would re-check that $4,000 figure, it seems a little low.

2) If it was me I'd like some face time. Working on the phone is sometimes counter productive. A one on one over some lunch is sometimes a real ice breaker.

Two pieces of excellent advice. Take Amy out to lunch to go over the whole mess with her again (who knows, maybe she's read some of this thread and is just hoping it goes away). I think the solution will involve a "negotiated cost sharing" to either put in the new and improved SAI front end or the tried and true Kirkham front end. Either way, I would bet $4000 is a very conservative cost estimate. But remember, you are totally without fault here... and SAI should be reminded of that fact.

[RICK LAKE]

Shelby Racer John, thanks for the pictures. Now for the bad news.IMO and I am not a person that did 4-8 years of college, this setup is junk in my eyes.
#1 the upper support is bolted to the splindle plate. How many bolts are in this? 2, or 3? Why is it not welded or both?? This looks like something a 10 year built with a band saw and drill press.
#2 There are NO washers on the bottom of the Allen heads bolts to help spread out the load to the flat plate.
#3 What material is the assembly made with? Part steel, Part Aluminum? I work on Vettes, C4 and up. The hub assemblys are 4 bolt to the spindle with 10mm threaded bolts with loctite. The hubs look the same as 1/2 ton truck units. This micky mouse setup scares me just to look at. If this was the original setup from the 60's no wonder they had wobbling in turns from the side load put on this setup. I know they are ran wire wheels until mags came along.
#4 An Axle nut that is pined to hold this assembly together, IMO is not as strong as a solid splindle to hold a brake rotor to the spindle. How do you load the bearings on this setup?? You can perload them, roadtest the car a couple of times, but then need to recheck them for wheel play and tighen them until you get a lite drag. This works good on a pinion setup for a rearend of a car but not where you need only 5-10 inch pounds of drag on the hub for the bearings to be set. Too tight and you wear out the bearings.
#5 Heat cycles will also cause a problem with looseness. Any combo of steel an Aluminum will cause to different metals expanding and contracting at to different speeds. This is why on my hats and rotors every bolt is safty wired to the next to pervent the bolts coming loose. I see no safety wire on any of these bolts in the pictures. If the nuts are nyloc, that's OK unless they are under extreme heat and the nyloc plastic melts.
#6 The lower ball joint is CLAMPED to the splindle plate??? 2 bolts taking almost 1"G" and all the weight of the car?? Mine are pressed in and now tack welded to insure they don't come loose.
I will get off my soap box now and let the smarter people hand this. I am gald that I didn't have the money to buy a CSX car for the POOR ENGINEERING DESIGNS I see in this car with a valve of $100K. There are 12 year old kids from India that could do a better job in design an this. I can see why they have changed the design if this is true. I wonder how many other Shelby owners with this frontend setup have had problems or have a problem and just don't know it with this series of car??? This could have been engineered so much better and make have even saved money for SAI. Anybody get a low speed vibration in the car when cruising or a come and go vibration in the steering wheel? I would jack up the front end and try and see if there is ANY PLAY. If there is, Locate it and have it checked and fixed. Rick L.

[patrickt]

OK Rick, so what you're saying is that the set up looks good to you and you're going to try and duplicate it on your ERA, right?

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by Power Surge

That's for ORIGINAL type suspension with Girling brakes.

Which is what he would need, no? Are you saying that he should put the shiny, blingy Billet suspension on his Shelby?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

Which is what he would need, no? Are you saying that he should put the shiny, blingy Billet suspension on his Shelby?

For those of us with the shiny blingy billet suspensions from Kirkham, I'm offended.

I've just got thi sfeeling that SAI will stonewall this until shelbyracer's dementia sets in It's never to early to start preparing for a claim. The preparation should be cheap. Just document the problem and make SAI aware of this documentation. Who knows, once you begin preparation for claim, SAI may actually DO SOMETHING.

[RICK LAKE]

Rodknock The problem with whole issue is once SAI will not help or fix Shelbyracers car even doing a 50/50 split on the price for better parts if to TRASH them any way you can. He has the pictures and paper work to prove this car is all ready a lemon buy the lemon laws in NJ. I don't know what the deal would be in Cali or Nev. Once the CRAP starts flying, you can't put the CRAP back in the horse and act like nothing happened. Some people that are loaded don't care and don't understand, some jump on the band wagon and cause trouble and become a problem instead of helping with the solution. I have stated my feeling on this matter and think that this setup could use alot of help. I think Shelby knows there is a problem and don't want to deal with it, Kind of like a president know didn't have sex with that women. Truth be known that the lady slipped and fell on the floor and she was just getting a handle on the problem.
Patrickt I am sure if you want this setup on your ERA, we can work out a deal and your ERA can be a little more original to an original cobra. We may be even to get you a partial CSX# Have a good one Pat. Have 1" of snow in the morning oboy. Rick L.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

For those of us with the shiny blingy billet suspensions from Kirkham, I'm offended.

No offense intended - hell, I've got a forged Jaguar suspension sitting in the front of my Contemporary, I'd take a Kirkham with the bling over that anytime!

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

No offense intended - hell, I've got a forged Jaguar suspension sitting in the front of my Contemporary, I'd take a Kirkham with the bling over that anytime!

I obviously don't mind the blingy billet aluminum suspension since I've also got a blingy polished aluminum Kirkham.

Rick, I think it would be fantastic if shelbyracer worked out any deal/compromise, let alone a 50/50 deal, and avoid any legal proceedings. I think he should take all his documentation, get on a plane to Las Vegas, and have a meeting with SAI, and see what can be done. I just get this feeling that shelbyracer won't get anywhere, and I would hate for that to happen to a fellow enthusiast.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

We may be able even to get you a partial CSX# ... Have a good one Pat.

Then I'd be able to say "yes, it's real; albeit not original." ......... Ehrrr, on second thought, I think I'll just stick with what I've got.

[shelby racer]

I'd be on a plane 1st thing Monday when every one should be in the office. I am currently working on a plan to find latest edition 4000's and see what the suspension looks like these days. I would LOVE to have the billet Kirkham suspension on the front of my CSX. Better , stronger and lighter. As far as the price - it seemed like a screaming deal to me to, but then again, amybe I am getting the sympathy for Shelby owners price . I have even considered getting a brushed Kirkham and selling the Shelby (although I have been told be the person who is responsible for the first polished csx4000 that I do NOT want bare aluminum - although the mat clear coat might work). Maybe my Cobra experience has all just been a bad dream that I can wake up from soon Thanks to all for the support and advice. I will get some more pictures when the hub / spindle / upright come apart this week end.

[Got the Bug]

John,

Best of luck to you! Keep escalating this within SAI and make sure they know that this issue is also getting a lot of visibility within the Cobra community.

Have a couple of documented plans in your back pocket so Shelby is clear regarding your expectations and the costs to remedy the situation. I've found that if there is no doubt and people are crystal clear regarding what I want, they can "run it up the flagpole" and get the appropriate sign offs to make it happen. My wife always laughs and says, "how do you stay so calm when people have pixxed you off?" I tell her that I'm going to get what I want....they just don't know it yet.

Just sent you an email with a couple of other ideas.

[RodKnock]

shelbyracer, while i too prefer the lighter, better. stronger Kirkham billet suspension, you might consider if the resale market will care (or not) about a Shelby having a Kirkham suspension. Personally, I would consider it a plus, others might consider it wrong. However, i think sending it up to Kirkham and having them install their suspension could be your cheapest alternative. Having said that, I'm not sure why SAI won't even mention that option to you (actually paying them money to fix it, distasteful, I know).

Regarding bare aluminum, there are plenty of threads here on CC that compare the maintenance of bare aluminum to the maintenance of paint. Both require a little work occasionally. Each have their proponents and opponents. Some like chocolate and some like vanilla.

[mickmate]

I would recommend buying a copy of the original handbook for $20. It has all kinds of good info and diagrams of how it should be put together. For my money I would want some real steel under there. You have billet already and look where it's left you. Call George http://www.cobraracing.com

[shelby racer]

I now understand that the front suspension was derived from the CAV gt40 and that it may have been used as a cost saving measure.... My cobra mechanic took a look at the uprights / spindles etc that I pulled off the passenger side and thinks that we can fix them so that I can get some more use out of them. The hub slipped right off the spindle without the need of a press. The bearings appear to be good, but the spindle nut needs to be tightened more. ALL The fasteners were loose. The billet aluminum mount was scarred and needs to be machined flat again. It is still a dumb design that we hope to improve on, but he thinks if we change (and upgrade) all the fasteners, use hardened washers, clean up the mating surfaces , use better loctite and torque then better (including the spindle nut) it should be safe to drive. I still have to bring the other side to my mechanic on Monday and we will continue to talk with shelby about any new parts / fixes / updates and may try to make new rotors and hats that are removable but I will hopefully be back on the road soon. There are going to be many thourough inspections coming up in this Shelby's life. Still very unhappy about yet another example of the poor build quality of this car and the fact that fasteners that were damaged when the uprights were changed were put back on the car when it was at SAI My mechanic brought up a good point today. With all the whining I do about this car and all the serious things that have been wrong with it, many people (including him, before he saw the pictures and doccumentation) may think that I am either making stuff up, just never satisfied, or a typical customer who doesn't know what he is doing (which is exactly what I was told by some one at SAI about my foot boxes, frame, motor mount and tranny mount - and then had to eat crow when they actually saw the car) - it is all real and I am just cursed. Thanks again for all the supprt and we shall see how this saga continues to develop.
John(;-)