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  • 2 Post By jts359
  • 2 Post By blykins

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 09-22-2021, 01:53 PM
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Default A tale of three Windsors.

This is the "new" build thread mentioned elsewhere. There's a good number of reasons for a fresh start, not the least of which was that the other thread was 3-1/2 years old and didn't have the focus I would have liked. But the MAIN reason is that, in keeping with my tendency to go overboard, the project has morphed from the initial goal of just a good, stout 351w, to a simple 408 stroker into three engines for 3 different vehicles. As it stands, there's the 408w that is bespoke to the Hurricane, the 351w that was a Craigslist buy, now penciled in to drop in my Midstates Cobra chassis, and lastly, the 351w currently under the hood of my t-top foxbody.

I guess a guy could say we have a mild-medium-hot type thing going on here. Being the inquisitive guy that I am, I see this as a perfect excuse to get all 3 of these on the dyno. Plus, the 408 and the craigslist engine will both be sporting dual-quads, and folks at my dyno shop are the go-to guys for this.

Just a pre-emptive note. Just about all of the parts have already been bought/traded/gifted, or were already on hand. Some parts there's simply no way I'd choose today if I were buying. A good example is head studs. I start to laugh every time someone brings up the overkill factor. I didn't fully realize it until i started looking at builds of guys with stellar reputations like Brent Lykins. That being said, I can't afford to throw out these studs simply because they're too good. Although they are a royal pain to work around. But next time...

If all went right, this post should have the 1st pic of the 408w short block.
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Old 09-22-2021, 03:06 PM
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Default The 408w

I stopped by my engine shop last week after a day of not so good news at the clinic, and there next to the door was the completed short block. Oh happy day!!!! Three and a half freaking years. This is my first take-away from this. If you let other people slide, they will, but if you need an excuse to slide yourself, these same folks will happily oblige. Anyway, here's a rundown of the work:

-boil, bake, blast the block
-index & install main caps and line bore
-bore and torque plate hone
-clearance for stroker
-deck block for zero height with new pistons
-new cam bearings and freeze plugs
-balance and prep rotating assembly incl. file fit rings
-pre-assemble, check, then assemble short block
-install cam at 0 and timing cover
-disassemble and clean new Edelbrock heads, lap valves, install Howard's springs
-cc heads, cc cylinders, calculate static compression ratio 10.6:1

So to walk out of there with my newly refreshed parts, total bill was $1741.00. Plus an additional $309.00 for the front of the house where the spring set came from. Other than the springs, that bill covered machining, the outsourced services of bake and blast the block and balance the rotating assy., and his assembly work on the block and heads.

That being what it is, it's easy to get a better feel for how reputable engine builders arrive at their prices. I don't mind paying for high quality work, I do, however, like to know that the rate is comparable to what others in his league would be. I originally thought of having a Brent Lykins built engine, but he quoted me a two year wait. This is where I feel like a complete FOOL! Had I just said "sounds good", I'd have had my engine over a year ago, and likely for very similar money, I'd be the proud owner of a Lykins-built engine. Oh hindsight... One of his cams may be in the works for dyno day, on my list to contact.

A few more shots of the short block...
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Last edited by Hoodabest; 09-22-2021 at 03:30 PM.. Reason: Spelling
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Old 09-22-2021, 03:13 PM
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Hind site is 20/20. Just keep moving forward. Hopefully the availability of parts will start easing up and it will go a little quicker for you.
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Old 09-22-2021, 03:21 PM
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Manage attachments is giving me static. Here's another couple. One is of my freeze plug. A couple weeks ago I walked in to the engine shop to check up on things. In every engine waiting for pickup, the freeze plugs had the large-font capital letters "CHINA" stamped deep into them. I told Bill (the engine guy) "Don't even THINK about putting those in my block". He actually had to make look for non-chinese freeze plugs. With me, it's the principle.
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Old 09-22-2021, 04:53 PM
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Nice pics and story so far, keep it coming.

I would ask your builder to show piston to valve clearance, plus retainer to seal etc. Hopefully he can quote this, and not hesitate.

I start a dummy build with the camshaft, then the crank, then one piston and rod, then one head with 2 valves and light checking springs.
Dial indicator on the valve retainer while watching the VTP clearance, versus crank fitted timing wheel.
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Old 09-22-2021, 09:09 PM
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Default PCV or not??

So, let's talk crankcase venting. (This is where it becomes CLEAR that I'm a mere hobbyist ) . Up until now, I've simply used whatever setup was there, be it pcv, vented caps, didn't matter.

So now i have 3 engines, 3 different sets of valve covers, 3 different intakes. I'm not sure what criteria would even be used to guess where to start. I believe all 3 carb setups have some provision for a pcv line, but that's where I'm stuck.

Oh, and the 408 will be getting a pair of those beautiful Blue Thunder cast covers. They just showed up with a vent-cap, 2 non-vent caps, and a cap with a built-in pcv valve. So I guess I could surmise that to be a nudge in a direction maybe?
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Old 09-23-2021, 02:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoodabest View Post
So, let's talk crankcase venting. (This is where it becomes CLEAR that I'm a mere hobbyist ) . Up until now, I've simply used whatever setup was there, be it pcv, vented caps, didn't matter.

So now i have 3 engines, 3 different sets of valve covers, 3 different intakes. I'm not sure what criteria would even be used to guess where to start. I believe all 3 carb setups have some provision for a pcv line, but that's where I'm stuck.

Oh, and the 408 will be getting a pair of those beautiful Blue Thunder cast covers. They just showed up with a vent-cap, 2 non-vent caps, and a cap with a built-in pcv valve. So I guess I could surmise that to be a nudge in a direction maybe?
By all means, we could do that. I recommend you start a new thread, so this one stays on your original topic.
Makes searching threads for future reference/information etc a lot more practical.
I am sure there are many members on here that will contribute to a well-informed discussion.

Gary
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Old 09-23-2021, 06:01 AM
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Hi Thanks for removing the china freeze plugs , But why didnt you use brass plugs ? Just curious , Ed
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Old 10-03-2021, 04:38 PM
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Hi Thanks for removing the china freeze plugs , But why didnt you use brass plugs ? Just curious , Ed
I've asked myself that question and came up blank. If there is a particular reason, please anybody, let me know so I can switch over on the engine stand. Like the PCV question, I simply don't have the expertise to know of any particular advantage. I have had to replace 3 or 4 freeze plugs in my life. All were on old ford gas dump trucks or tractors, all were due to leaking, not freezing, all were steel. But every one had been in place for decades before failing.
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Old 10-04-2021, 06:09 AM
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I appreciate the kind words and I feel your pain. Parts shortages and lead times have put me in a bad bind recently.

Just to chime in on the freeze plugs. Nothing wrong with steel plugs if you coat them inside and out, otherwise they will rust.

Also, they make freeze plug drivers. The ones you show have been driven in with a hammer and socket, which leaves the ring in the middle as you see. Also, it kills me when they're not all aligned the same. The devil's in the details....
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Old 10-05-2021, 08:40 AM
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It is almost impossible to find non crappy "China" parts. Most part stores barely even carry any on direct inventory, usually "at the "Hub". Again not nice brass USA built parts. People these days in almost everything readily sacrifice quality and longevity of everything they buy for a cheap I want it now alternative. They could car less where it came from, or who profits from it's sale. Try to find USA sheet metal for that beloved muscle car, good luck. Don't even get me started about the dimensional and corrosion issues. BTW yes very easy to swap out the freeze plugs on the stand. As usual there are varying opinions on the use of a sealant on them. I never have, never had an issue.
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Old 10-05-2021, 10:26 AM
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OK, I have decided to do this right. As I truly do believe that the devil IS in the details. If anyone happens to have a set of nice brass plugs and/or the proper driver available for sale, please p.m. me. Even a link to a vendor that will save a bit of searching. Thanks.
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Old 12-08-2021, 01:05 PM
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Default Pics and background of Windsor #3

So Folks, here's number three, and a little backstory on how this all came about. I started with the bare block and parts that came with the car. Brent quoted 2 years to build, which seemed long at the time (I've since learned otherwise).
For time's sake, I figured I'd get a strong running used engine (#2) on the cheap, use it as a mule to get the car built, and work on the stroker as time and $ allowed. Buyer beware, the engine was not what the seller claimed, but there were some good parts there so it was worth a teardown, rebalance, etc.. but, I was still looking for an engine.
I stumbled across a '84 mustang t-top with a newly installed 351w and a TKO. It was built by a young lady wanting to be a part of her beau's scene, and after initial startup and once around the block, she totally lost interest, so onto my trailer it went, with maybe 30 minutes run time from new.
Now, the initial intent was to pull the mustang's engine/trans assy. and mule it in the Hurricane until it's stroker was completed, then switch it into my Midstates Cobra chassis, and sell off the beautiful rust-free, straight Mustang t-top roller.
The roller would net more than I have into the whole car plus the craigslist engine now known as Windsor #2, had I JUST stuck to the plan. Instead, I made the mistake of taking the li'l pony for a quick spin up the road and back. It was just too good to tear apart. Thus, the decision was made to take on YET ANOTHER project.
As it now stands, Windsor engine #3 resides comfortably between the shock towers of the foxbody. It looks like the pics in this posting.
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Old 07-19-2022, 03:02 AM
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Default Question for spdbrake

So my question is where are your spark plug wire looms from? I have Moroso 72133 in my cart that I'll be ordering tomorrow, unless you have a better suggestion. BTW I decided to move this question off of Sycraft's carburetor update thread, so as not to continue hijacking it. There's some great info there, take a peak.

Went ahead and ordered the recommended Bosch alternator, and will be putting in orders for the linkage, and march pulley setup, among other things, as soon as I call Summit and give them the ol' WTF on their lack of discount codes as of late. More to come.
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Old 07-19-2022, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoodabest View Post
So my question is where are your spark plug wire looms from? I have Moroso 72133 in my cart that I'll be ordering tomorrow, unless you have a better suggestion. BTW I decided to move this question off of Sycraft's carburetor update thread, so as not to continue hijacking it. There's some great info there, take a peak.

Went ahead and ordered the recommended Bosch alternator, and will be putting in orders for the linkage, and march pulley setup, among other things, as soon as I call Summit and give them the ol' WTF on their lack of discount codes as of late. More to come.
The 72133 loom stands are what I use. Also MSD Super Conductor wires. I like the 50ohm per foot vs the 500ohm per foot on the Ford Racing wires I used to use.

Summit has slipped quite a bit in the past couple of years. I've had quite a few issues getting items shipped out the of the GA location. Although it always shows we'll ship today up to 10pm EST. Sort of a we'll get a label on it next week issue, we can't figure out how to create anything but a UPS label and then on only odd number days. So now I had them change my profile to FedEx only and ship from anywhere but GA. It takes a day longer to get items from OH but at least they ship the same week.

Jegs is the alternative but their search engine drill-down remains broken to one level only. You can enter Ford for example in the clutch section and it may or may not drill-down. Forget paring it down further such as Brand or Engine type. It does not respond. Which forces you to go thru 3448 items in the clutch section to find what you want. This issue has been going on for 3+ years at Jegs and they don't care to fix it either.

Jegs was recently sold to a Private Equity Firm. It won't be around much longer I feel. https://www.thedrive.com/news/44493/...te-equity-firm

Last edited by spdbrake; 07-19-2022 at 06:15 AM.. Reason: Update
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