Replica or a modern reproduction?

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

.....When people ask that question "is it real" I and other continuation Cobra owners answer truthfully by saying "Yes, it's a Continuation Series Shelby Cobra". If the person inquiring knows what that is great. If they don't, oh well. If they ask I explain. If they don't. Oh well. If they consider it a "real Cobra" that's great. If they don't, don't care. They are free to think what they want but I answered the question truthfully.....

There are a lot of opinions stated here, so might as well add mine.
I totally agree with previous posts that when someone asks "Is it a real one?" they mean is it one of those cars that are pulling a million dollars at the auctions....so if someone asks "Is it a real one?" and you answer "Yes, it's a Continuation Series Shelby Cobra", then you're most likely misleading people.

Cheers,
Glen

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by xb-60

There are a lot of opinions stated here, so might as well add mine.
I totally agree with previous posts that when someone asks "Is it a real one?" they mean is it one of those cars that are pulling a million dollars at the auctions....so if someone asks "Is it a real one?" and you answer "Yes, it's a Continuation Series Shelby Cobra", then you're most likely misleading people.

Cheers,
Glen

I agree that the person asking the question "Is it real" usually wants to know if it's an original Cobra. I think that's fair.

If I say "yes" and stop there, I'm not lying but agree it's misleading as to what they are likely asking. If I answer "yes and add "its a real Cobra but a current production continuation series by Shelby" I been both truthful and haven't mislead anyone. They clearly can't be under the impression its an original Cobra and they now know its a genuine Continuation Series Cobra. If they inquire further and if I have time I am happy to answer any questions. I always answer the question honestly. I am proud of my car. I am sure other Continuation owners are proud of their cars too and don't want to pass it off as an original.

Ironically, I'd be willing to bet that a great number of the guys here throwing stones at me who don't own a "Cobra" new or old when asked "Is that a Cobra" lie and say "Yes". I've heard guys with "replicas" do that time and time again over the years. Truth is they are not Cobras, not by a long shot. So whose misleading who? If they were asked is that a "real Cobra" they would also be lying again by answering yes no matter what with the same answer. Either way replica owners can't truthfully answer yes.

Don't throw stones when you live in a glass house.

I don't see my clear and authoritatively position as being petty. Sorry. I am defending and rightfully so what the car is. What I see as petty is the need by others who don't own one to continually try and tear it down. That's petty.

[ERA2076]

Is someone asked me if mine was a Cobra I would not hesitate to say "yes" - that is what it is.

If they want to know who manufactured it, I am happy to tell them.

and mine is mechanically far, far, far, from an original

chr

[Al G]

Originally Posted by ERA2076

Is someone asked me if mine was a Cobra I would not hesitate to say "yes" - that is what it is.

If they want to know who manufactured it, I am happy to tell them.

and mine is mechanically far, far, far, from an original

chr

Now that's a false response that gets to the crux of this entire discussion. Your ERA is not a Cobra. It is a Cobra replica. Does ERA even call it a Cobra?

[AL427SBF]

Originally Posted by Al G

Now that's a false response that gets to the crux of this entire discussion. Your ERA is not a Cobra. It is a Cobra replica. Does ERA even call it a Cobra?

Agree ...
ERA Replica Automobiles
Manufacturing Extraordinary Replica Kits Since 1981

We know that buying any kit involves a considerable commitment of your money and time. Our goal is to protect that investment, as well as our reputation. The result: our standard kit has almost every part either hinged, latched, or fit before it leaves the E.R.A. factory. It's difficult to assemble this kit wrong!

They call it an E.R.A. 427, or E.R.A. 289FIA, or ERA 289 Slabside, but not Cobra.

[ERA2076]

Originally Posted by Al G

Now that's a false response that gets to the crux of this entire discussion. Your ERA is not a Cobra. It is a Cobra replica. Does ERA even call it a Cobra?

I don't care what ERA calls it. ERA has to bow's to the judicial boots just like all the manufacturers. ERA supplied me with a very good platform to build my Cobra.

In my world it is a Cobra - a lot of them hand built by people who care about the history and charm of the story. When I see one going down the road I say "look Sweet Heart a Cobra". When she sees one she says "look a Cobra" and she doesn't know squat about Cobras, but she knows what one looks like. Do I think for a second it is a real one?- do I think for a second it is not a real one? - no - because I don't care. I certainly do wonder what make it is and if the opportunity presents itself, I am going to wander over to look at it. With any luck it is a hand built, high performance roadster, constructed in the spirit and form of the originals (some more than others) and that is what I look for and I enjoy seeing what others build.

Legal bickering means nothing to me with respect to Cobras. Shelby blew the deal when he lost the rights to Ford and all the lawyer's in the world can never repair that. The Genie was out of the bottle and the path of the Cobra was for ever altered. Shelby - Ford - and the courts worked out their differences, but for the layman on the street they will always be Cobras - Ignorance is bliss - so be it. I can think of a thousand things where daily ignorance is inexcusable - a Cobra is not one of them - YMMV.

Is my 2003 SVT Mustang a Cobra?

The MGB thing is a stretch

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

.... guys here throwing stones at me who don't own a "Cobra".....

I'm slightly offended!
1. They're replica stones, not real ones
2. My Cobra is a real, original '60s car (check out my avatar)

Cheers,
Glen

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I agree that the person asking the question "Is it real" usually wants to know if it's an original Cobra. I think that's fair.

If I say "yes" and stop there, I'm not lying but agree it's misleading as to what they are likely asking.

Thank you Evan... I'm with you to here...

BUT, you lose me a little with your next bit... So I'll FIFY...

Originally Posted by REAL 1

If I answer "yes" and add "BUT not an original Cobra, simply a current production continuation series (or cobra) by Shelby" I been both truthful and haven't mislead anyone.

ELSE...

Originally Posted by REAL 1

They clearly can't be under the impression its an original Cobra and they now know its a genuine Continuation Series Cobra.

YOU'D Think so... But, sorry, you'd be WRONG!

Exhibit 1:
PhotoPost Classifieds - CSX4048 FOR SALE - ALL PAPERS 2700 MILES - Powered by PhotoPost Classifieds

Originally Posted by REAL 1

If they inquire further and if I have time I am happy to answer any questions. I always answer the question honestly. I am proud of my car. I am sure other Continuation owners are proud of their cars too and don't want to pass it off as an original.

Good on you! You should be proud of your car... its sounds like a nice car. No doubt it replicates the driving experience of a 1965 original to a more accurate degree than any other example of COBRA. Certainly more than my piece of junk

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Ironically, I'd be willing to bet that a great number of the guys here throwing stones at me who don't own a "Cobra" new or old when asked "Is that a Cobra" lie and say "Yes".

This may not fit your beloved SAAC definition, but equally it doesn't deliberately give Joe public the wrong impression!

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I've heard guys with "replicas" do that time and time again over the years. Truth is they are not Cobras, not by a long shot. So whose misleading who? If they were asked is that a "real Cobra" they would also be lying again by answering yes no matter what with the same answer. Either way replica owners can't truthfully answer yes.

One can tell the truth, yet still be lying - I did NOT have sexual relations with that woman...
By definition he's not lying... but I (along with the rest of the world) call BS, and that secreting those bodily fluids on "that woman" constitutes "sexual relations" despite what SAAC or Webster have to say...

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I don't see my clear and authoritatively position as being petty.
Sorry. I am defending and rightfully so what the car is. What I see as petty is the need by others who don't own one to continually try and tear it down. That's petty.

I see your position about as PETTY as the guy with a replica who responds "NO, its better that the original" or "NO, its an improved cobra" or variant of...


FWIW - when I'm asked "is it a real cobra" I respond, with a simple, NO! despite it being "real" and despite it being a "cobra" as by both your definition earlier in this thread, and the fact the rest of the world defines the car by its shape as a cobra.
I would be WRONG and misinforming them to tell the "truth" (as per your definition) and answer "YES!"

JMHO, as seemingly shared by the rest of the world (excluding the handful of csx guys, who have vested interests... No?), and are trying to grasp to something to fill whatever void they have...

Just sayin' time you get over it!

[Paul F]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

......

Ironically, I'd be willing to bet that a great number of the guys here throwing stones at me who don't own a "Cobra" new or old when asked "Is that a Cobra" lie and say "Yes". I've heard guys with "replicas" do that time and time again over the years. .......

Yes! This whole discussion is because those that don't own a genuine Shelby do have a chip on their shoulder and need to find a way to tell people their car is cool even though it isn't a genuine Shelby. If they didn't, they wouldn't have such angst about answering the question.

Even those that don't have a 1960s Cobra but have a Shelby have a chip on their shoulder because they go through such great lengths to argue that theirs is a continuation Cobra and the registry says so.

Guess what? NO ONE ASKING THE QUESTION CARES. Continuation, replica, kit, custom, no one cares. It's not an original. They walk away disappointed and you feel bad because you couldn't say yes.

Question: Is it original?
Answer: No.

[bingo2]

I agree with this definition:

Replica | Define Replica at Dictionary.com

[AL427SBF]

Originally Posted by Paul F

.. NO ONE ASKING THE QUESTION CARES. Continuation, replica, kit, custom, no one cares. It's not an original ...

Have to agree, for the enthusiast who has experience with these cars you don't get "is it real?", you get "who made it?"

Those with no experience in the hobby will ask "is it real?", and what has been said here time and time again is that what they really want to know is "is it an original?"

Owner's choice to answer truthfully or not, but there is no "gray area" for the answer imo.

[REAL 1]

Very interesting observation in seeing that the guys who are seeking justify their own "personal views" which are clearly intended to bring down something they don't own continually "like" each others posts. Just like you guys have your own mutual admiration club. You guys can't let facts get in the way of opinion now. That would ruin everything.

Also interesting was that when Ned posted something earlier that was misread by some as again supporting their personal opinion it was immediately liked. However, if you noted Ned "liked" Jim's post who nailed the issue on his first try yet none of the, well, "Shelby" detractors cared for that post very much. Interesting.

Ned's last statement which seem to be an effort to add grist for the mill is somewhat misleading but yet course once again based on what was said "literally" by him it was again noted with interest the usual suspects immediately liked it. The bias is so transparent.

I hate to disappoint but the fact is that very simply AC didn't manuafacture "Shelby Cobras". Shelby American Manufactured Shelby Cobras. AC shipped rolling chassis to Shelby for completion. In fact numerous improvements were made by Shelby to the AC chassis and changes to the body (AC Ace) to transform what AC supplied into Shelby's Cobra. Shelby developed it, manufactured it and refined it into the world legend it became. Shelby was the manufacturer of the Shelby Cobra. Yes, some cars of the 2000 series carried teh AC Ltd tag but were not Cobras until they left SAI. Period. AC was, however, allowed to build their version of Cobra (AC Cobra) under license from Shelby in Europe. So as Shelby manufactured the Shelby Cobra in 1962-68 he is legally and rightfully entitled to make a Cobra today and continue the production regardless of who he uses as a supplier of basic chassis and body. To refuse to recognize this would result in loss of credibility just as in refusing to recognize the obvious of any existing fact results in loss of credibility. You can't change facts or history no matter who you are.

Dimis: Do me a favor, if your going to impeach me as to what I say or said use an example of what I said or did not what some sot said or was trying to do back in 2010 to try and sell a car. Cleary he was a jack$$. There is no dearth of "replica" owners trying to pass their cars off as Shelby Cobras either. Plenty of those

No, I am not giving Joe public the wrong impression. I answered truthfully and honestly to the question posed as to "is it real?". If "joe" has questions what a Continuation series Shelby Cobra is or current production Cobra is he is free to ask and I'll answer.

When he asks if my car is a Cobra, factually, truthfully legally and authoritatively I can answer "yes". Its as simple as that. You however can also answer yes but the difference is your lying. Moreover, how do you know what he is "really" asking when he asks is that a Cobra? Is he asking is a genuine Cobra or does he mean a replica? Your truthful answer would be "its a replica Cobra". Otherwise your lying. Period.

ERA2076: Your answer is totally fallacious and patently false to the average Joe when you tell them that it's a Cobra as opposed to a "Cobra replica" but hey if your cool with that keep doing it if in your own mind it really is a Cobra. Have you met buddy g?

Paul F: I agree 100% with your first paragraph. You nailed it.
Paragraph 2 is incorrect. I don't have to go to any lengths to argue the current production Cobras are Continuation Series Cobras. Thats exactly what they are. They are a continuation of the first series Cobras by SAI. Also, honestly I been met with nothing but enthsuiasm and excitement when people who ask learn my car is a genuine Shelby Continuation Cobra and it draws crowds not only on its looks but based on what it is just like it did 14 years ago.

bingo2: Precisely. Which is why if these guys want to use the literal dictionary definitions their non Shelbys don't even rise to the replica level.

No matter how you guys slice it truth is truth and facts are the facts and its all there in the Registry. For those of you that still can't accept the current production Cobras are genuine/real Shelby Cobras, come on over and I'll show you my cars MSO, delivery paperwork from SAI and title that says Shelby Cobra. My Id plate even says Shelby American Inc. Pretty sure it's a Shleby Cobra. Yep. Pretty sure.

[A-Snake]

Unlike prior Registries, the fourth edition included "other" Cobras including Kirkhams, Shelby American CSX4000 etc, Brock coupes, Mike McCluskey Daytona Coupes. Here is the explaination as to why these "other" Cobras are included. This is from page 16 of the Registry.

“Including all of the “other” Cobras and GT40s in the new Registry has an unintended consequence of providing them with a sense of legitimacy simply because they are “in the Registry.” However, this is nothing more than a pleasant coincidence for their owners. The reason they are included is to illustrate that they are different from the original Cobras and GT40s and to detail exactly what the differences are. Without providing specific production figures, detailed serial number break-downs and locations and owner information, it would be all to easy, some 15 or 20 years from now, to phony up an AC MK IV or CSX4000 into a real 427 Cobra and foist it off onto an unknowledgeable buyer who had a copy of the Registry which contained only original cars. A lot of those who know Cobras and GT40s cold will no longer be around to blow the whistle. Once there are no ‘experts’ on the scene, it will turn into the Wild West and anything will go. If no one can tell a real Cobra from anything else, the values of all cars will diminish at the same rate the history of the real ones becomes cloudy. So we go the extra mile to include these other cars in order to solidify the history of the originals. Nothing more.”

[REAL 1]

ASnake: Interesting. Whoever wrote that passage in the introduction obviously didn't cross reference it wth the other contributors or the editors missed it since it is in clear conflict and diametrically opposed with numerous other passages in the Registry and the clear specific definitions and categories set out and even SAACs own clear and unequivical statement on their website.

Clearly, whoever wrote that passage in the introduction had an axe to grind and clearly inconsistent and outweighed by the numerous other statements and specific definitions set forth very clearly and definitively.

The definitions and categories are clear and the discussion of the Continuation Cobra is clear.

What's clear legally and factually is that there are Original Cobras and Continuation Cobras that exist today.

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

ASnake: Interesting. Whoever wrote that passage in the introduction obviously didn't cross reference it wth the other contributors or the editors missed it since it is in clear conflict and diametrically opposed with numerous other passages in the Registry and the clear specific definitions and categories set out and even SAACs own clear and unequivical statement on their website.

I would say the writer and editor-in-chief is Rick Kopec.

Here is the Registry passage being questioned by REAL1;

“Including all of the “other” Cobras and GT40s in the new Registry has an unintended consequence of providing them with a sense of legitimacy simply because they are “in the Registry.” However, this is nothing more than a pleasant coincidence for their owners. The reason they are included is to illustrate that they are different from the original Cobras and GT40s and to detail exactly what the differences are. Without providing specific production figures, detailed serial number break-downs and locations and owner information, it would be all to easy, some 15 or 20 years from now, to phony up an AC MK IV or CSX4000 into a real 427 Cobra and foist it off onto an unknowledgeable buyer who had a copy of the Registry which contained only original cars. A lot of those who know Cobras and GT40s cold will no longer be around to blow the whistle. Once there are no ‘experts’ on the scene, it will turn into the Wild West and anything will go. If no one can tell a real Cobra from anything else, the values of all cars will diminish at the same rate the history of the real ones becomes cloudy. So we go the extra mile to include these other cars in order to solidify the history of the originals. Nothing more.”

[Paul F]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

....

Paragraph 2 is incorrect. I don't have to go to any lengths to argue the current production Cobras are Continuation Series Cobras. Thats exactly what they are. They are a continuation of the first series Cobras by SAI. Also, honestly I been met with nothing but enthsuiasm and excitement when people who ask learn my car is a genuine Shelby Continuation Cobra and it draws crowds not only on its looks but based on what it is just like it did 14 years ago. ....

You are re-inforcing my point with this paragraph. Even your handle exemplifies the point.

[Ralphy]

Evan, how ignorant and thick headed you are. When I'm asked what it is? I'd like to say it's an Everett Morrison. Then continue from there. But did you ever think even a car guy would know what a EM is? Evan, IMO most people try to define what they have only to relate to the unknowing public. Your sick and a fool! Just trying to get a rise because you own a SA. Go back to the SAAC board since it's evident you hate anything but a Shelby built Cobra. It bleeds from your postings, your first post started with attacks and you've never stopped. It's not seeking to justify, it's seeking to identify for non SA owners! If all the continuation owners are like you, "I'D BE PROUD TO NEVER OWN A CONTINUATION CAR."

Your words show no pride, just arrogance. You make SA owners look bad. You and your cronies are probably the ones who go around to shows and scream it's a replica rubbing your hands together. Your sick! I had just bought a SAAC poster one week before this thread, had it framed. Because of you, I'll never look at it the same. If I had any SAAC power would revoke your membership. I'd like to think your a one man freak show, but I think not. If your what I'm to expect there? I will not attend any SAAC events. Thanks for the heads up and saving my money. And I would encourage all other non SA owners to do the same.

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Very interesting observation in seeing that the guys who are seeking justify their own "personal views" which are clearly intended to bring down something they don't own continually "like" each others posts. Just like you guys have your own mutual admiration club. You guys can't let facts get in the way of opinion now. That would ruin everything.:LOL

Ralphy

[mdross1]

Your words show no pride, just arrogance. You make SA owners look bad. You and your cronies are probably the ones who go around to shows and scream it's a replica rubbing your hands together. Your sick! I had just bought a SAAC poster one week before this thread, had it framed. Because of you, I'll never look at it the same. If I had any SAAC power would revoke your membership. I'd like to think your a one man freak show, but I think not. If your what I'm to expect there? I will not attend any SAAC events. Thanks for the heads up and saving my money. And I would encourage all other non SA owners to do the same.

Honestly have to agree with Ralphy, so many of our non original, non continuation cars were assembled with as much care for total performance as any in the Registary. I certainly understand the intense defense of that sacred doctrine and would hope that at an SAAC event would not feel like an outsider. Is it really worth all this?

In the end nothing that has been said so far has made me feel any less for my creation. Honestly, I feel more a part of a brotherhood with the majority of you that responded than I do with a small minority. Thank you

[REAL 1]

So, now you guys like the Registry? Now that an owner of an original series Cobra found a single paragraph buried near the end of the Section having nothing to with actually doing the work of the Registry (setting out the information and definitions of the Registry) but simply the Registry's evolution entitled "Evolution of the Registry" which is clearly diametrically opposed to the vast weight of whats written and stated clearly and concisely elsewhere in numerous other parts in the Registry in more than one respect including the the definitions and categories you guys are once again in love with the Registry

Now that you guys like the Registry let me guess which part, or which isolated paragraph buried at the end of a section on the Evolution of the Registry that you really like.

Also, I didn't say "error" I said inconsistent and diametrically opposed.

As Ned pointed out there was apparently some hard feelings between SAAC and Mr. Shelby in 2008 when the current Registry was being compiled and just a wild guess here..perhaps that necessarily included those at the top of SAAC and Mr. Shelby at the time when the new Registry was compiled. The tone of that paragraph buried near the end of that section to me clearly has a tone of sticking a thumb in Shelby's eye. Again, thats how it reads to me. But it clearly says what it says. I find it also unfair to Contnuation Cobra owners and insulting.

If this is SAAC's true attitude and position as stated by this one person they should have made it clear upfront and conspicuously and clear to owners of Contiuation Cobras what their true purpose and attitude was. If this is their attitude I doubt it will promote much cooperation from Continuation owners in the future.

Clearly, then SAAC needs to clarify or correct or reconcile somehow
that one paragraph written by the one person with the vast weight of what is stated elsewhere in the Registry which clearly also says what it says.

In the meantime, until SAAC clearly explains the inconsistency between that isolated paragraph (written by that one person at the top of an organization who clearly had editorial reign to say what he wanted if he was "editor in cheif" and as Ned alluded to whose organization was not exactly getting along with Shelby and in a bitter dispute with him at the time) with the numerous statements and the express information provided in numerous other pages by the hard working and dedicated contributors and entuhisasts which is the literal position of Registry and the preponderating view of the Registry and the position provided in specific dedicated sections dealing with the issue that clearly is the Registry's official position as I see it and not mere one persons view buried in a "non-working" part of the Registry.

Further, if what the was stated in that paragraph in the Evolution of the Registry Section is really the intent and view of SAAC as opposed to what appears to be one persons editorial on the subject all the Registry needed to very simply do was stay consistent with that person's statement especially if it was the editor in chief's statment throughout and not set out to define and refer to the Continuation Series as "genuine" Cobras or "Cobras" or authentic Cobras which the Registry clearly does in dedicated sections dealing with those issues. All they needed to do was to stick the Continuation Series Cobras and everything else not of the original series in the "Replica" pot. It would have been simple to do. Stroke of a pen. However, they specifically and expressly didn't do this and furthermore went the extra distance to explain why.

Also significant is the fact that likely the subject of how to define these cars and categorize them was the subject of many a committee meeting and discussion and likely eventual consenus view (which obviously some at SAAC didn't like) but nevertheless adopted as the published view. Yep. Its all there.

Gee Mdross1 I am not the one throwing aspersions. I am merely pointing to the definitions and categories used by SAAC when addressing the issue. The way it see it the aspersions being hurled in my direction and toward the current production Cobras.

Buddyg: Whats unbelievable is your inability at analysis and ability to understand.

Ralphy: Sorry you are so upset by all this. You say "arrogance" I say "sour grapes" in an effort to denegrade what some don't own. As far as who is being ignorant, thick headed, sick and a fool I'll let my words speak for me you and I'll let your words speak for you. I'm very comfortable with that.

In the meantime what remains an undeniable truth regardless of the SAAC editor in chief's views is that what continuation owners own are current production Shelby Cobras. He can't change the facts either.

Heck, maybe Continuation owners will start our own official Registry!. Maybe you guys are right after all, who needs SAAC?

Hey. you guys have a good day.

Cheers.

P.S. Message to SAAC. You have what appears to be an inconsistent statement in your Registry at page 16 with what is clearly stated in the preponderance of the your Registry. If you like I can provide all the page numbers. Thought you guys might like to know.

P.S.P.S. You also appear to have Continuation Cobras on the cover of your World Registry of Cobras & GT40s. Does that need to be fixed?

[Paul F]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

...
In the meantime what remains an undeniable truth regardless of the SAAC editor in chief's views is that what continuation owners own are current production Shelby Cobras. He can't change the facts either.

That is an undeniable fact. The other undeniable fact is that in the context of the original post - nobody cares. No matter how it is documented in the registry, it still isn't a Cobra from the 1960s. Now that's a Cobra. Sure, your's is a Shelby Cobra. Its a real Cobra, but it isn't a real Cobra.

In a conversation at a car show, if you told a Thunderbird enthusiast you owned a T-Bird, you would peak their interest. When you both walk up to your 2002 T-Bird, well.... who cares? It's not a T-Bird. It's not a real T-Bird. Yes, it is a genuine Ford Thunderbird. That is undeniable. But it really isn't is it? Not in the context that enthusiasts view it. They wanted to see a 1955-57 T-Bird.

It's obvious you have great pride in your car and enjoy it very much. My point is that no matter what re-make we own, if we don't have a 1960's Cobra, we shouldn't cloud the conversation nor let our ego/pride/insecurities cloud up the conversation with an innocent that walks up to us and asks if its real or if its original. They only care about one thing. Adding anything else to the answer 'no' is for your benefit, not theirs. If they want to know more, they will ask.

This lengthy discussion shows how hung up we are about it. But nobody else cares.

Well, I'm full of popcorn. See you guys the next time this comes up.

Evan, if you're ever in the San Francisco Bay area, post a note. It would be fun to meet over breakfast or drinks.