Replica or a modern reproduction?

[Nedsel]

I wonder if that might be due to the fact that the small-block cars were always called "AC Cobras" and Shelby had to beat journalists over the head to make them refer to the big-block cars as "Shelby Cobras." In neither case did Shelby build the cars, hence he was not the manufacturer of them. He simply supplied badges while Ford supplied the drivetrains. Pure and simple truth.

[LMH]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

I wonder if that might be due to the fact that the small-block cars were always called "AC Cobras" and Shelby had to beat journalists over the head to make them refer to the big-block cars as "Shelby Cobras." In neither case did Shelby build the cars, hence he was not the manufacturer of them. He simply supplied badges while Ford supplied the drivetrains. Pure and simple truth.

Not to diminish original cars but a lot of SA's work on the cars once they arrived from England was sloppy and hap-hazard. The oil temp bung immediately comes to mind.
Larry

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by LMH

Not to diminish original cars but a lot of SA's work on the cars once they arrived from England was sloppy and hap-hazard. The oil temp bung immediately comes to mind.
Larry

You really hit on the head, cut a hole in the pan, weld the bung in with the pan still on the engine, repaint over the burned paint, why bother. How about the top that doesn't fit over the roll bar just stretch it till it bends the dot fasteners in the aluminum. They had little regard for everyday customers, we were a necessary evil. They would not even fix my severally bent lower front control arms when I brought it down to SA to show them their design screw up.

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by Cobra #3170

They would not even fix my severally bent lower front control arms when I brought it down to SA to show them their design screw up.

Bruce, as you probably know, the factory comp 427s had reinforcing gussets welded to the lower control arms, as Shelby was aware they could deform under racing load. A mechanic I knew in NJ, Ray Heppenstall, used to regularly repair and strengthen these back in the day, and he would then forward the bills to Shelby American. He claimed he always got reimbursed. Shame they never gave you the same treatment.

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

Bruce, as you probably know, the factory comp 427s had reinforcing gussets welded to the lower control arms, as Shelby was aware they could deform under racing load. A mechanic I knew in NJ, Ray Heppenstall, used to regularly repair and strengthen these back in the day, and he would then forward the bills to Shelby American. He claimed he always got reimbursed. Shame they never gave you the same treatment.

Ned,

When I brought the car down there I showed them the problem and (I think it was Rem) was very disturbed when he saw the bent arms. He jacked the car up and was going to change them out when Shelby walked over looked at the odometer and saw that it had about 3000 miles on it and told them not to fix it.
I am not sure when they first found out about the issue but I am pretty sure this was one of the first ones because I have seen many SC's without the fix.
This occurred in early 1966 probably around April. I used silver bronze braze to attach a piece of .125 wall strap stock mounted vertically on both sides of the lower control arms which worked well. I did hear that they came out with the kit to fix the problem but I think it was about a year later.

Shelby and I became friends through Ford about 30 years later and laughed about how he screwed me back in the day.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

I wonder if that might be due to the fact that the small-block cars were always called "AC Cobras" and Shelby had to beat journalists over the head to make them refer to the big-block cars as "Shelby Cobras." In neither case did Shelby build the cars, hence he was not the manufacturer of them. He simply supplied badges while Ford supplied the drivetrains. Pure and simple truth.

Really? Didn't need Phil Remington to put badges on. Come on Ned. Really. Thats just not true. AC Ltd supplied chassis and body, Shelby provided and installed drive train and completed the cars for delivery. Plain and simple truth. The Cobra was conceived and developed and refined by Shelby. It bore no resemblance to the AC Ace when Shelby was done. Are you saying the Cobras Shelby completed were sold and invoiced to dealers and customers as AC's and sold as AC's? Really? Wheres proof of that.

My understanding is that the vast majority of 289s were sold as Shelby Cobras. Is this not the case?

[LMH]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Really? Didn't need Phil Remington to put badges on. Come on Ned. Really. Thats just not true. AC Ltd supplied chassis and body, Shelby provided and installed drive train and completed the cars for delivery. Plain and simple truth. The Cobra was conceived and developed and refined by Shelby. It bore no resemblance to the AC Ace when Shelby was done. Are you saying the Cobras Shelby completed were sold and invoiced to dealers and customers as AC's and sold as AC's? Really? Wheres proof of that.

My understanding is that the vast majority of 289s were sold as Shelby Cobras. Is this not the case?

AC supplied a lot more than just body and chassis. It was a complete car, minus engine and transmission. It didn't make sense to send the drive unit to England only to return it to the states.
AC had completed the run of Bristol engine cars and was building the RS2.6 when Shelby came into the picture. Ford was already involved with AC for the project. Shelby didn't design the Cobra and you can see clearly where it's design came from. The final RS2.6's were completed while the first Cobra's were being built.
Larry

[ERA2076]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

ERA2076: Your answer is totally fallacious and patently false to the average Joe when you tell them that it's a Cobra as opposed to a "Cobra replica" but hey if your cool with that keep doing it if in your own mind it really is a Cobra. Have you met buddy g?

First - let me say I mean no disrespect to anyone here, it really is just chatter.

Come on now - anyone that knows Cobras can tell immediately mine is a replica - he does not need me educate him. We are both aware of Cobra history and he either accepts replicas or he does not and he is not going to be-little me because of it. If he is really religious about it, he is not gong to talk to me or look at my car.

If someone asks 'is it a Cobra" I say yes it is a Cobra. If they persuit, depending on their apparent knowledge, I discuss my car with them, the fact it is a replica and who built it. There are lots of non-Cobra people out there who identify with the cars, don't know all the details, and it is ridiculous to feel like you have to try to explain anything to someone that does not know just to increase your chances of going to heaven. It is just silly.

With 7.5 billion people in the world it is statistically a nats ass that knows anything about these cars and a pimple on the nats ass for the amount of originals compared to 7.5b.

Is it a Cobra - classifies a virgin
Is it real (original) - classifies an illiterate who has lost their virginity

An Enthusiast would ask neither. He might make POS references, but that just save lots of time.

So are you worried I am violating virgins because nothing could be further from the truth - I love virgins

ERA has been building Cobras since 1981 (?) It seems like I remember reading someone started building kits in the 70's. When did Ford and Shelby come to an agreement?

Cobras are kit cars made race cars and always have been. Shelby and Ford kicked them to the curb and they took on a life of their own without him.

It is rather amusing how many car sellers put them on the market as Shelby Cobras - that is BS. They should be listed with OEM and Shelbys name should be nowhere to be found because they are not Shelby Cobras.

They are however - Cobras

chr

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

My understanding is that the vast majority of 289s were sold as Shelby Cobras. Is this not the case?

The vast majority of 289 Cobras were invoiced as "Cobra-Ford." Only about 9% used the term "Shelby AC Cobra", and that term was mostly used on the early 260 and worm & sector cars.
As for the 427/428 cars, I find only four examples that used the word "Shelby" in the description on the invoice.

The information is in the footnotes in the Registry.

[Nedsel]

Nope, it's not the case. AC invoiced the cars to Shelby as an "A.C. Cobra" and Shelby invoiced them to dealers as a "Cobra-Ford." And Phil Remington worked on the race cars for the most part.

[BevanWright]

And you buggers with ford motors in your fakydoos whine about my chev powered thing!

I remember reading this nonsense when I joined club cobra years ago. surprised to see it is still going! In fact the busiest thread, that is sad.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and nobody has to agree.

I have a Kevlar bodied, steel chassis, chev powered, race car that I call my Cobra. I would never race a real cobra, all replicas, continuation cars etc are cool, and I like all of them.

Sorry Real1 I don't think a car made by a replica manufacturer with fibreglass body is that close to the original cars. The fact that the value is higher than the equivalent replica means some people agree with you.

Shelby would sell anything, there has been plenty of stories, taking someone else's replica and selling as continuation to me is a little misleading. Sure... Legally it is continuation etc, but... Isn't clear cut is it?

[Dimis]

Ralphy,

Now that's a bit harsh...
Not all CSX guys suffer Napoleon syndrome...
Perhaps not tarnish them all with the same brush.
Some are really cool guys. Don't let the buggers get you down and spoil your poster.

Evan:
would you agree that answering: "Yes, a counterfeit 1965 shelby cobra" for a csx4 series car would be THE most truthful, honest and correct without any illusion or chance of msguiding Joe public?

Over to you sir.

Ps. We've already confirmed mine is a cobra as per your definition.
Yet Im happy to call it a fakedoo to make you feel better. No issues.

I like this game you started.
Thx

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Ralphy,

Now that's a bit harsh...
Not all CSX guys suffer Napoleon syndrome...
Perhaps not tarnish them all with the same brush.
Some are really cool guys. Don't let the buggers get you down and spoil your poster.

Evan:
would you agree that answering: "Yes, a counterfeit 1965 shelby cobra" for a csx4 series car would be THE most truthful, honest and correct without any illusion or chance of msguiding Joe public?

Over to you sir.

Ps. We've already confirmed mine is a cobra as per your definition.
Yet Im happy to call it a fakedoo to make you feel better. No issues.

I like this game you started.
Thx

First, my friend as to the pejorative description of me as suffering from Napoleon syndrome you are wrong. I am not short but of average height. .

Second, no I wouldn't agree with describing the Continuation Cobras as counterfeit 1965 Cobras. I'm sure this is precisely and exactly the way you and others here would love to describe them, however, and are trying to describe them. That's the entire rub of the issue I have with the "sour grapes" crowd who continue to 'bang their rattles on the ground' insisting the Continuation series is nothing more than a "replica too" just like their cars. It is their efforts to ascribe this definition that is objectionable in view of the SAAC definitions as "ESTABLISHED BY SAAC" see page 30. If you want to use the Webster definitions that fine, I'll do that but you can't have it both ways which is exactly what you and the other "sour grapes" crowd want. Non Shelby Cobras (i.e. ERA's FFR, BD, EM ,Uniques, Butlers, Street Beasts, Contemporaries etc.,etc.) are either replicas per SAAC or they are the "counterfeit" cars pretending to be Cobras if you want the Webster's definition to apply. You can't have it both ways unless of course you want to live in your own world as some clearly insist on doing. It's actually quite simple.

Is your "Polish thing" a Kirkham? You never answered the question. If so, you are free to deprecate your own car which based on the definitions "ESTABLISHED by SAAC" your car is "Kirkham Cobra" whose history parallels the history involving AC with regard to supplying chassis and aluminum bodies to Shelby American to the specs of the original series. Owning a Cobra new or old doesn't imbue one with brains. Obviously you insist on deprecating what you own. Carry on.

Cheers.

[buddyg]

I still don't care what SAAC says but your the one who put all your eggs in that basket. So now you are scrambling to justify your worship of SAAC when they clearly said your car was not a REAL 427 COBRA their words not mine.

This whole sour grapes thing is ridiculous, I could have bought a "Continuation Cobra" but I didn't see the value in spending more money for essentially the same thing. You did and you bought yours and that's what's great about freedom. I don't really care what you call your Replica of the original. I just don't care for you or your condescending attitude.

You are the one with the inability to analyze and understand.

[ChicagoChris]

:

Originally Posted by buddyg

I still don't care what SAAC says but your the one who put all your eggs in that basket. So now you are scrambling to justify your worship of SAAC when they clearly said your car was not a REAL 427 COBRA their words not mine.

This whole sour grapes thing is ridiculous, I could have bought a "Continuation Cobra" but I didn't see the value in spending more money for essentially the same thing. You did and you bought yours and that's what's great about freedom. I don't really care what you call your Replica of the original. I just don't care for you or your condescending attitude.

You are the one with the inability to analyze and understand.

Wow, well I really don't care what you call your Superformance Cobra replica either!

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by buddyg

I still don't care what SAAC says but your the one who put all your eggs in that basket. So now you are scrambling to justify your worship of SAAC when they clearly said your car was not a REAL 427 COBRA their words not mine.

This whole sour grapes thing is ridiculous, I could have bought a "Continuation Cobra" but I didn't see the value in spending more money for essentially the same thing. You did and you bought yours and that's what's great about freedom. I don't really care what you call your Replica of the original. I just don't care for you or your condescending attitude.

You are the one with the inability to analyze and understand.

The above again is yet another shining example of your inability to grasp and comprehend. I am not scrambling to justify. It's their inconsistency not mine. "They" did not say it wasn't a genuine or real Cobra. It was one person who wrote that passage and wrote it in clear conflict the the rest of the Registry in many areas on many pages. I believe clearly an axe to grind motivating that passage. In sharp contrast to this one man's statement buried in a non working portion of the Registry I offer as just one example the following: Please refer to page 30 of the Registry. You will also note the express verbiage "SAAC has established" as a preface to the working definitions they set out. Go on to read the definitions. This is just one supporting example. There are numerous others.

As far as being condescending. I will agree to disagree here. You like that phrase right? I was merely setting out what SAAC's official position as they expressly stated they established. Not my words. Theirs.

If the "editor in chief's" view is in fact SAAC view they should have made it clear to Continuation Cobra owners when solicitiing information on their Continuation Cobras. If that "view" was SAAC's view and was made known to Continuation Cobra owners I doubt they would receive much cooperation or information from them and if that is their "view" as opposed to what is clearly expressly stated otherwise in many areas of Registry I dare say they shouldn't expect much cooperation in the future from Continuation owners to keep track of these cars. Certainly won't get much cooperation from me.

However, based on my reading of Registry I don't believe this one persons view is SAAC's official position. It clearly is not as I literally read the working parts of the Registry.

Regardless some clarification should be provided by them as to why that paragraph which is so inconsistent and contrary to the rest of the Registry was published.


Cheers.

AL427SBF is correct once again.

Paul F: Yes. I clearly understand your point and yes if we are limiting Real Cobras to originals and yes most people want to know if its an original. I get it. I'll take you up on your offer if I am ever in San Fran. Likewise..
If you are ever in NJ pm me. Would love to have a get together with you.

Cheers.

[AL427SBF]

Take the SAAC Registry off the table and just deal with the question Joe Public is asking "is it real". Either you agree his/her curiosity is focused on "was it built in the 60's" or you don't. Some have a mental block and cant' accept that translation to get to the fundamental right answer. Ironically, all have been asked that question many times, and if you're being honest, it always goes to same place "no, it's not a 60's original but ...".

Now put the SAAC Registry back on the table with definitions below. Everything said above in not in conflict to the registry as some have implied. In fact, the registry provides you guidance on how to answer that question truthfully IF you understand what Joe Public is fundamentally asking.

1. Original Cobra: Those produced between '62 and '68.

2. CSX Continuation Cobras: Current production Cobras built by Shelby to more less original standards delivered without engine and transmission.

3. Kit Car or Replica: Any Car with a body which approximates the original Cobra shape, using any kind frame, suspension, brakes or driveline.

Joe Public is asking if your car is an original cobra and nothing more. How they frame the question should not be viewed as your opportunity to get your foot in the door and steer away from the fundamental right answer. Once answered, if Joe Public decides to walk away so what, why do you care? If more dialogue follows then cool - you've met someone truly interested in the hobby.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by AL427SBF

Take the SAAC Registry off the table and just deal with the question Joe Public is asking "is it real". Either you agree his/her curiosity is focused on "was it built in the 60's" or you don't. Some have a mental block and cant' accept that translation to get to the fundamental right answer. Ironically, all have been asked that question many times, and if you're being honest, it always goes to same place "no, it's not a 60's original but ...".

Now put the SAAC Registry back on the table with definitions below. Everything said above in not in conflict to the registry as some have implied. In fact, the registry provides you guidance on how to answer that question truthfully IF you understand what Joe Public is fundamentally asking.

1. Original Cobra: Those produced between '62 and '68.

2. CSX Continuation Cobras: Current production Cobras built by Shelby to more less original standards delivered without engine and transmission.

3. Kit Car or Replica: Any Car with a body which approximates the original Cobra shape, using any kind frame, suspension, brakes or driveline.

Joe Public is asking if your car is an original cobra and nothing more. How they frame the question should not be viewed as your opportunity to get your foot in the door and steer away from the fundamental right answer. Once answered, if Joe Public decides to walk away so what, why do you care? If more dialogue follows then cool - you've met someone truly interested in the hobby.

Bingo! We have winner!!!!

Johnny, please tell the man what he won!~

[Ralphy]

Evan, maybe your concerned how many people come to you and Idol you. But if I wanted attention I'd go buy a 69 Chevelle, buy a folding chair, grow a beer gut and bake my ass off at some wanker show. Only to discuss car polish and where I'm going to eat after sipping my brew! Seems to me the more an owner spends at these shows the less they know. I've walked up to guys with a rough, work in progress and they have more knowledge and excitment for what they own than beer gut.

I'm not intereste in Static Motionless Trophy Winners! I'm more interested Checkered Flag Kind Winners! What major title of racing has a continuation won?


I don't care who asks me squat about my ride. Because I didn't buy a car to get chicks or have people hover over my chrome. The fact is if I went to an all Shelby show and you parked all the originals to the left side and continuations to the right. I and I'm sure most would be massing on the left. Why is your car much less important? Because anyone with the cash can go buy a new one. If SA sold 100,000 CSX4000 they would be passe.

Poser? Why did I say that?

The real meat IMO, is an original Shelby raced car not a poser, The Gold!

Poser 1st degree: anyone who bought an original to race.
Poser 2nd degree: anyone who bought an original for the street.

P1 and P2 are also gold but less than P1 IMO.

Poser 3rd degree: anyone who bought a continuation.
P3 is closer to P4 than P2.

Poser 4th degree: anyone who bought a replica, etc....
Poser 5th degree: anyone who bought a replica, etc....

I'm sure sub groups could extend the list. I randomly without calculation said, I'm a 7th degree. However maybe a 5th.

Ralphy

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Ralphy

Evan, maybe your concerned how many people come to you and Idol you. But if I wanted attention I'd go buy a 69 Chevelle, buy a folding chair, grow a beer gut and bake my ass off at some wanker show. Only to discuss car polish and where I'm going to eat after sipping my brew! Seems to me the more an owner spends at these shows the less they know. I've walked up to guys with a rough, work in progress and they have more knowledge and excitment for what they own than beer gut.

I'm not intereste in Static Motionless Trophy Winners! I'm more interested Checkered Flag Kind Winners! What major title of racing has a continuation won?


I don't care who asks me squat about my ride. Because I didn't buy a car to get chicks or have people hover over my chrome. The fact is if I went to an all Shelby show and you parked all the originals to the left side and continuations to the right. I and I'm sure most would be massing on the left. Why is your car much less important? Because anyone with the cash can go buy a new one. If SA sold 100,000 CSX4000 they would be passe.

Poser? Why did I say that?

The real meat IMO, is an original Shelby raced car not a poser, The Gold!

Poser 1st degree: anyone who bought an original to race.
Poser 2nd degree: anyone who bought an original for the street.

P1 and P2 are also gold but less than P1 IMO.

Poser 3rd degree: anyone who bought a continuation.
P3 is closer to P4 than P2.

Poser 4th degree: anyone who bought a replica, etc....
Poser 5th degree: anyone who bought a replica, etc....

I'm sure sub groups could extend the list. I randomly without calculation said, I'm a 7th degree. However maybe a 5th.

Ralphy

Ralphy: Yes, yes. This categorization helps tremendously.



Sorry your so worked up over this.