Mystery solved. Shelby Trust to sell Real Cobras

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Bullseye.

Moreover, I don't believe these cars will be well received by SAAC or the Cobra community across the board due to their use of the 3000 series vins.

I'm not so sure of that at all. There may be a few owners of original 1960's CSX3000 cars, who might welcome it. Why? Those first few Resurrection Cobras could be stuffed with lots of OEM parts. Why not buy the Resurrection Cobra to help restore your real original 1960's 3000 Cobra? Then get a bunch of run-of-the-mill parts from Shelby or Kirkham to put the Resurrection Cobra back together and then dump it on the market. Sure you would lose some money on the deal, but then you would use those OEM parts to restore you're genuine 1960's Cobra. Consider the cost difference on the buy and sell of the Resurrection Cobra as a portion of your restoration cost.

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I'm not so sure of that at all. There may be a few owners of original 1960's CSX3000 cars, who might welcome it. Why? Those first few Resurrection Cobras could be stuffed with lots of OEM parts. Why not buy the Resurrection Cobra to help restore your real original 1960's 3000 Cobra? Then get a bunch of run-of-the-mill parts from Shelby or Kirkham to put the Resurrection Cobra back together and then dump it on the market. Sure you would lose some money on the deal, but then you would use those OEM parts to restore you're genuine 1960's Cobra. Consider the cost difference on the buy and sell of the Resurrection Cobra as a portion of your restoration cost.

That is exactly what my mom said, and you know MOM's know best...

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I'm not so sure of that at all. There may be a few owners of original 1960's CSX3000 cars, who might welcome it. Why? Those first few Resurrection Cobras could be stuffed with lots of OEM parts. Why not buy the Resurrection Cobra to help restore your real original 1960's 3000 Cobra? Then get a bunch of run-of-the-mill parts from Shelby or Kirkham to put the Resurrection Cobra back together and then dump it on the market. Sure you would lose some money on the deal, but then you would use those OEM parts to restore you're genuine 1960's Cobra. Consider the cost difference on the buy and sell of the Resurrection Cobra as a portion of your restoration cost.

Hmmmm, let me see if I have this theory down pat. Soooo, owners of originals that are already "original" and may be missing a few items will spend $500,000.00 + dollars to buy one of the new "Completion" car just to cannibalize it for some parts and then hope to get back their purchase price and resell the car minus the original parts they cannibalized?

Then do they pass on the original bill of sale and build sheet or disclose the "missing" parts? If they don't disclose the parts it's fraud. Not many want to expose themselves to that. If they do disclose the missing parts then what is the car worth now? Also, since all the cars will apparently differ in the amount of original parts they carry, which car do they buy?

If This type of game starts to occur it will kill the value of these cars as no one will want to pay "big" $$$ for them never knowing if the car they are buying has been "raped" of its original list of parts. I would certainly approach such cars with caution if this type of shenanigans starts to take place.

Also, in most scenarios parts are worth sold more sold separately than as an entire vehicle when parted out. Why not sell the entire stash if it really exists and to whatever extent it exists separately item by item? Likely would bring far more in the end and then sell the CSX 3000 chassis separately to be completed as CSX 3XXX with a suffix like "H" for "historic" stamped onto each chassis and completed by Kirkham or McClusky to competition specs (not SC) that would clearly identify what they were and remove the objectionable issue of having them purpost to be part of a series they are not.

If the original run were completed they would not be SCs. Historically, had they been completed to the 100 needed they would have been comp spec.

Also, while I don't doubt DeBeneste was friendly with Carroll Shelby and if was DeBeneste that "ended" up with this "stash of parts" which the world is just now finding out existed raises another fertile ground for some real questions.

If Carroll had these parts he supposedly would have had them for many years. No?

I have never heard or read about this stash before. Been around Cobras for 20+ years and have participated on numerous forums dedicated to Shelbys and Cobras. Never heard anyone speak of it. Am I missing something? If so please enlighten me.

The current Registry doesn't mention such a stash. At least that I was able to find. I don't know if previous Registries did.

Asked a builder of a well known and very respected replica company and a restorer of originals and very knowledgeable regarding Cobras if they ever heard about this stash. Nope.

Carroll was very close friends with McClusky and Lynn Park. Why didn't one of those two end up with the parts if he "sold" them. Why not a family member?

If this secret mountain of "Shelby gold" existed I am incredulous that it remained such a secret likely from the 60's and all of a sudden the announcement is made in 2015 and "pow" the world is in awe. Really?

Why wasn't the announcement made back in the time frame with the previous Completion series was being ginned up? Carroll never mentioned such an original stash of "parts" as I recall. Again enlighten me if I a wrong. All he mentioned was the existence of 1965 Chassis "he found out back" then later said after getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar that he "was just misunderstood" clarifying only that they are "true to spec" 1965 chassis built by McClusky. He had the perfect chance to say "he what I meant was these are true to spec 1965 chassis to be adorned with vintage original parts and components making them true 1965 cars". He didn't even when he as in a jam with the State of Californication back peddling fast trying to avoid criminal issues. If ever there was a time to wheel out this stash that was the time.

The article at the top of this thread and the other article said he wanted the project completed "after his death". Really? Think about that. Make sense? Ah, no.

The pieces of this puzzle just don't seem to fit right to me.

Just say'n.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Hmmmm, let me see if I have this theory down pat. Soooo, owners of originals that are already "original" and may be missing a few items will spend $500,000.00 + dollars to buy one of the new "Completion" car just to cannibalize it for some parts and then hope to get back their purchase price and resell the car minus the original parts they cannibalized?

Then do they pass on the original bill of sale and build sheet or disclose the "missing" parts? If they don't disclose the parts it's fraud. Not many want to expose themselves to that. If they do disclose the missing parts then what is the car worth now? Also, since all the cars will apparently differ in the amount of original parts they carry, which car do they buy?

If This type of game starts to occur it will kill the value of these cars as no one will want to pay "big" $$$ for them never knowing if the car they are buying has been "raped" of its original list of parts. I would certainly approach such cars with caution if this type of shenanigans starts to take place.

Also, in most scenarios parts are worth sold more sold separately than as an entire vehicle when parted out. Why not sell the entire stash if it really exists and to whatever extent it exists separately item by item? Likely would bring far more in the end and then sell the CSX 3000 chassis separately to be completed as CSX 3XXX with a suffix like "H" for "historic" stamped onto each chassis and completed by Kirkham or McClusky to competition specs (not SC) that would clearly identify what they were and remove the objectionable issue of having them purpost to be part of a series they are not.

If the original run were completed they would not be SCs. Historically, had they been completed to the 100 needed they would have been comp spec.

Also, while I don't doubt DeBeneste was friendly with Carroll Shelby and if was DeBeneste that "ended" up with this "stash of parts" which the world is just now finding out existed raises another fertile ground for some real questions.

If Carroll had these parts he supposedly would have had them for many years. No?

I have never heard or read about this stash before. Been around Cobras for 20+ years and have participated on numerous forums dedicated to Shelbys and Cobras. Never heard anyone speak of it. Am I missing something? If so please enlighten me.

The current Registry doesn't mention such a stash. At least that I was able to find. I don't know if previous Registries did.

Asked a builder of a well known and very respected replica company and a restorer of originals and very knowledgeable regarding Cobras if they ever heard about this stash. Nope.

Carroll was very close friends with McClusky and Lynn Park. Why didn't one of those two end up with the parts if he "sold" them. Why not a family member?

If this secret mountain of "Shelby gold" existed I am incredulous that it remained such a secret likely from the 60's and all of a sudden the announcement is made in 2015 and "pow" the world is in awe. Really?

Why wasn't the announcement made back in the time frame with the previous Completion series was being ginned up? Carroll never mentioned such an original stash of "parts" as I recall. Again enlighten me if I a wrong. All he mentioned was the existence of 1965 Chassis "he found out back" then later said after getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar that he "was just misunderstood" clarifying only that they are "true to spec" 1965 chassis built by McClusky. He had the perfect chance to say "he what I meant was these are true to spec 1965 chassis to be adorned with vintage original parts and components making them true 1965 cars". He didn't even when he as in a jam with the State of Californication back peddling fast trying to avoid criminal issues. If ever there was a time to wheel out this stash that was the time.

The article at the top of this thread and the other article said he wanted the project completed "after his death". Really? Think about that. Make sense? Ah, no.

The pieces of this puzzle just don't seem to fit right to me.

Just say'n.

So, are you telling me that every original '60's series car is restored or nearly restored and doesn't need a bunch of OEM parts to start/finish the owner's restoration? This parts stash is a treasure trove of OEM parts. A very wealthy owner, someone who owns 30-40 rare vintage cars in his or her collection, buys the Resurrection Cobra, takes the rare unobtainium parts he or she needs from it and then resells it. Or keep it. Of course, disclose the fact that "these" specific parts are no longer on the car and sell it. Why not? I can complete the restoration of "my" original '60's 3000 series, which now will win all sorts of awards at the next SAAC Convention and is now worth $3,000,000 or whatever.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

So, are you telling me that every original '60's series car is restored or nearly restored and doesn't need a bunch of OEM parts to start/finish the owner's restoration? This parts stash is a treasure trove of OEM parts. A very wealthy owner, someone who owns 30-40 rare vintage cars in his or her collection, buys the Resurrection Cobra, takes the rare unobtainium parts he or she needs from it and then resells it. Or keep it. Of course, disclose the fact that "these" specific parts are no longer on the car and sell it. Why not? I can complete the restoration of "my" original '60's 3000 series, which now will win all sorts of awards at the next SAAC Convention and is now worth $3,000,000 or whatever.

I know if I had an "original" cobra, I wouldn't spend megabucks on original parts. It's an original car, it doesn;t need to have all original parts, down to the spring clips or rubber boots. Those extra original parts are worth more putting them together for these cars than they are worth selling them to the owners of "original" cars. We'll see how big of a money maker these cars will be. Carroll couldn't sell them 20 years ago, maybe there is a market for these cars now, built the way they are doing them. It's a business.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I know if I had an "original" cobra, I wouldn't spend megabucks on original parts. It's an original car, it doesn;t need to have all original parts, down to the spring clips or rubber boots. Those extra original parts are worth more putting them together for these cars than they are worth selling them to the owners of "original" cars. We'll see how big of a money maker these cars will be. Carroll couldn't sell them 20 years ago, maybe there is a market for these cars now, built the way they are doing them. It's a business.

Then you don't understand anal retentive perfectionist behavior like I do.

There are folks all over the world looking for that one last part to make their rare piece of history juuuussssst right.

I don't know if the OEM parts stash exists or not, and maybe it's just one shelf's worth of the Almighty Lucas wiper motors or something, but it sure does create some hysteria and excitement around here. That I'm grateful for.

[Bernica]

I do have a pretty reliable friend in Seattle that told me he had seen the "Stash" somewhere in a Gardena warehouse years ago. Over the years I have also asked lots of other folks and never found anyone else that could or would confirm.

I would venture a guess that CS could have had a nasty NDA in place with the likes of DenBeste and McCluskey about such a stash where DenBeste would not get the Shelby Engine Company and McCluskey wouldn't be allowed to do the builds if they violated the NDA. Who the hell knows?

I would be curious what Gary Patterson at CS would have to offer on this whole matter...

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Bernica

I do have a pretty reliable friend...

Now HERE come the stories. We have Evan speaking with his confidants too. Next we'll have DA BUNNIES posting inside info on this parts stash/horde.

Everybody knows somebody. Well I'm going on record as not knowing any one. Period. I have no stories to tell because I have no Shelby, SAAC or any "double secret probation" type people. I'm just a regular guy.

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Now HERE come the stories. We have Evan speaking with his confidants too. Next we'll have DA BUNNIES posting inside info on this parts stash/horde.

Everybody knows somebody. Well I'm going on record as not knowing any one. Period. I have no stories to tell because I have no Shelby, SAAC or any "double secret probation" type people. I'm just a regular guy.

And I'm just a semi-retired dumb ass contractor!
Like I said, I only heard the rumor once.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

So, are you telling me that every original '60's series car is restored or nearly restored and doesn't need a bunch of OEM parts to start/finish the owner's restoration? This parts stash is a treasure trove of OEM parts. A very wealthy owner, someone who owns 30-40 rare vintage cars in his or her collection, buys the Resurrection Cobra, takes the rare unobtainium parts he or she needs from it and then resells it. Or keep it. Of course, disclose the fact that "these" specific parts are no longer on the car and sell it. Why not? I can complete the restoration of "my" original '60's 3000 series, which now will win all sorts of awards at the next SAAC Convention and is now worth $3,000,000 or whatever.

I don't know the state of restoration or completion for every original cobra out there. I doubt anyone does. A lot of these original parts were obtainable individually on a limited basis. So if the owner needed an original park here in there there were sources to go to.. Very few of them were unattainable.

It's just that no one knew or thought it was a stash – the size of which would allow 47 cars to be built. I just find it very hard to believe that such a large stash was kept secret for over 50 years and all of a sudden now is shown to the world. How do we know the parts in the stash are all original and many are not repros?

I am not saying that a wealthy owner of an original car could not buy one of these cars to use as a parts car. This just seems to me a very expensive way to obtain some original parts. And this would obviously destroy or damage whatever value the completion car had to begin with. Such a trend would also in my opinion completely undermine the value and desirability of this new completion car in addition to the issues they already have trying to carry off CSX 3000 vins. These new completion cars are in reality simply continuation Shelby's stamped with 3000 vin numbers and more original parts in many cases the same or close to in some other cases.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I don't know the state of restoration or completion for every original cobra out there. I doubt anyone does. A lot of these original parts were obtainable individually on a limited basis. So if the owner needed an original park here in there there were sources to go to.. Very few of them were unattainable.

It's just that no one knew or thought it was a stash – the size of which would allow 47 cars to be built. I just find it very hard to believe that such a large stash was kept secret for over 50 years and all of a sudden now is shown to the world. How do we know the parts in the stash are all original and many are not repros?

I am not saying that a wealthy owner of an original car could not buy one of these cars to use as a parts car. This just seems to me a very expensive way to obtain some original parts. And this would obviously destroy or damage whatever value the completion car had to begin with. Such a trend would also in my opinion completely undermine the value and desirability of this new completion car in addition to the issues they already have trying to carry off CSX 3000 vins.

First, the Resurrection Cobra is a replica to me. Canabilizing it is a means to an end. I mean really, it's another special limited edition replica to me. Second, David K. is on record stating that some of these OEM parts are/were unobtainable.

And any one buying one of these Resurrection Cobras for $500,000, with of course $50,000 being potentially tax deductible, has more money than brains, unless they strip it to finish the restoration of their genuine 1960's Cobra.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

First, the Resurrection Cobra is a replica to me. Canabilizing it is a means to an end. I mean really, it's another special limited edition replica to me. Second, David K. is on record stating that some of these OEM parts are/were unobtainable.

And any one buying one of these Resurrection Cobras for $500,000, with of course $50,000 being potentially tax deductible, has more money than brains, unless they strip it to finish the restoration of their genuine 1960's Cobra.

Just which parts are unattainable? How significant are they? Who in their right mind would spend $500,000 to obtain a real Lucas rearview mirror?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Just which parts are unattainable? How significant are they? Who in their right mind would spend $500,000 to obtain a real Lucas rearview mirror?

Here's David's post, but I'm sure his list is not an exhaustive one, but a sampling.

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

Guys,Regarding the CSX3000 "Continuation Cars" (at least that is what I think they are calling them) we have already made one. It was sold before we finished it. Bill DenBeste spared no expense. He wanted everything RIGHT.

Bill gave us a ton of original parts to work with. Bill has a MOUNTAIN of original parts. I have no idea where he got all of them. (Some from Mike McCluskey, some from Shelby, and probably some from God). I mean he has a literal MOUNTAIN of goodies. He has original, copper radiators, original 16 inch steering wheels, original switches--still in the Lucas packages. It is fascinating to walk through his treasure trove. Smaug would be jealous of that hoard. There are parts in there I have never, ever seen before (keep in mind I have been working on Cobras now for over 25 years).

Bill and Joe Conway wanted everything perfectly correct and handed us a chassis, a pile of parts, and told us to go for it. The cars are literally clones of the original Cobras. If you placed one of them beside an original car at a show and you saw some difference I can tell you the error will most likely be with the original car.

Partial list of the specs:
many parts are original--as in I took them out of the original box.
some parts are EXACT reproductions. (And yes, some are Kirkham reproductions made from billet but you'd be very hard pressed to figure out they weren't original). You know, if we got something wrong (probably did) let me know and we will improve! There is an extreme level of commitment here on the part of Bill and Joe.

Goodies include:
original copper radiator
original fuel log
original 1 3/8 roll bar
Lucas switches/electrical
Lucas headlights (still in the box)
original seat tracks
original iron differential
original 1/2 shafts
original 1965 iron side oiler block
original 1965 forged steel 427 crank
Shelby heads (new Shelby heads). I really don't mind they are "new" heads in the slightest--Bill makes really nice stuff.
Top Loader transmission
Original reproduction suspension
solid rotors--like original
Girling reproduction brake calipers (Kirkham billet, you can't tell the difference--they are SWEET pieces made from high heat resistant 2219 aluminum).
original, in the box, voltage regulator
original, in the box, Lucas electrical everywhere
Smith's gauges
Original Lucas wiper motor!!! (Impossible to find)

David

All I'm suggesting is that if indeed they are a lot of unobtainium-type NOS OEM parts, they actually may increase the value of the original genuine '60's Cobra more than the loss of value on the Resurrection Cobra. How much do these wealthy individuals spend on a restoration anyway? I'm sure there are some 1960's Cobras (drives me nuts that I have to state 1960's Cobra) that need ALOT of work. Is it smart? I dunno, but as David said these Resurrection Cobras will be dead nuts original. And you can't and/or won't drive them anyway.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Hmmmm, let me see if I have this theory down pat. Soooo, owners of originals that are already "original" and may be missing a few items will spend $500,000.00 + dollars to buy one of the new "Completion" car just to cannibalize it for some parts and then hope to get back their purchase price and resell the car minus the original parts they cannibalized?

Then do they pass on the original bill of sale and build sheet or disclose the "missing" parts? If they don't disclose the parts it's fraud. Not many want to expose themselves to that. If they do disclose the missing parts then what is the car worth now? Also, since all the cars will apparently differ in the amount of original parts they carry, which car do they buy?

If This type of game starts to occur it will kill the value of these cars as no one will want to pay "big" $$$ for them never knowing if the car they are buying has been "raped" of its original list of parts. I would certainly approach such cars with caution if this type of shenanigans starts to take place.

Also, in most scenarios parts are worth sold more sold separately than as an entire vehicle when parted out. Why not sell the entire stash if it really exists and to whatever extent it exists separately item by item? Likely would bring far more in the end and then sell the CSX 3000 chassis separately to be completed as CSX 3XXX with a suffix like "H" for "historic" stamped onto each chassis and completed by Kirkham or McClusky to competition specs (not SC) that would clearly identify what they were and remove the objectionable issue of having them purpost to be part of a series they are not.

If the original run were completed they would not be SCs. Historically, had they been completed to the 100 needed they would have been comp spec.

Also, while I don't doubt DeBeneste was friendly with Carroll Shelby and if was DeBeneste that "ended" up with this "stash of parts" which the world is just now finding out existed raises another fertile ground for some real questions.

If Carroll had these parts he supposedly would have had them for many years. No?

I have never heard or read about this stash before. Been around Cobras for 20+ years and have participated on numerous forums dedicated to Shelbys and Cobras. Never heard anyone speak of it. Am I missing something? If so please enlighten me.

The current Registry doesn't mention such a stash. At least that I was able to find. I don't know if previous Registries did.

Asked a builder of a well known and very respected replica company and a restorer of originals and very knowledgeable regarding Cobras if they ever heard about this stash. Nope.

Carroll was very close friends with McClusky and Lynn Park. Why didn't one of those two end up with the parts if he "sold" them. Why not a family member?

If this secret mountain of "Shelby gold" existed I am incredulous that it remained such a secret likely from the 60's and all of a sudden the announcement is made in 2015 and "pow" the world is in awe. Really?

Why wasn't the announcement made back in the time frame with the previous Completion series was being ginned up? Carroll never mentioned such an original stash of "parts" as I recall. Again enlighten me if I a wrong. All he mentioned was the existence of 1965 Chassis "he found out back" then later said after getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar that he "was just misunderstood" clarifying only that they are "true to spec" 1965 chassis built by McClusky. He had the perfect chance to say "he what I meant was these are true to spec 1965 chassis to be adorned with vintage original parts and components making them true 1965 cars". He didn't even when he as in a jam with the State of Californication back peddling fast trying to avoid criminal issues. If ever there was a time to wheel out this stash that was the time.

The article at the top of this thread and the other article said he wanted the project completed "after his death". Really? Think about that. Make sense? Ah, no.

The pieces of this puzzle just don't seem to fit right to me.

Just say'n.

Hmm, a stash of unobtainable parts that nobody has heard of.

Did you see the Spring 2013 SAAC magazine? There is an interesting article about Bob Gingold becoming obsessed with acquiring all kinds of parts rare NOS parts for the restoration of CSX3133 over 39 years.

Here are some interesting quotes:
- "Ten round trips later, Gingold's 3,000 square foot basement and a couple of garages were filled with enough 427 Cobra parts to start a restoration business."
- "He became well known to the Cobra restorers of the day, like Mike McCluskey, Bill Kemper, Geoff Howard and Carter Gette. Most were willing to sell him a couple of what he was looking for but they realized they also needed to maintain an inventory for their own customers."
- "He found the correct bearings at a parts supplier in Paris, France. This bearing did not exist in the U.S. But he did not stop there. He went to the original factory in England and bought whatever inventory they still had."
- "For the last trip he took the passenger and rear seat out of his car and filled it with 120 complete pumps in the original boxes. He also got whatever odd parts were left over, plus two unique chromed pumps that were assembled for display at trade shows."

Do you suppose it is possible that with the restoration of CSX3133 complete that Bob might have sold part of his collection of NOS parts?

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Hmm, a stash of unobtainable parts that nobody has heard of.

Did you see the Spring 2013 SAAC magazine? There is an interesting article about Bob Gingold becoming obsessed with acquiring all kinds of parts rare NOS parts for the restoration of CSX3133 over 39 years.

Here are some interesting quotes:
- "Ten round trips later, Gingold's 3,000 square foot basement and a couple of garages were filled with enough 427 Cobra parts to start a restoration business."
- "He became well known to the Cobra restorers of the day, like Mike McCluskey, Bill Kemper, Geoff Howard and Carter Gette. Most were willing to sell him a couple of what he was looking for but they realized they also needed to maintain an inventory for their own customers."
- "He found the correct bearings at a parts supplier in Paris, France. This bearing did not exist in the U.S. But he did not stop there. He went to the original factory in England and bought whatever inventory they still had."
- "For the last trip he took the passenger and rear seat out of his car and filled it with 120 complete pumps in the original boxes. He also got whatever odd parts were left over, plus two unique chromed pumps that were assembled for display at trade shows."

Do you suppose it is possible that with the restoration of CSX3133 complete that Bob might have sold part of his collection of NOS parts?

Good find!.. Is Gingold still alive? If so why doesn't someone ask him or a family member what happened to the stash?

How about asking some of these other restorers? I'm not saying Carroll didn't have a supply of old parts as I am sure he would somewhere but enough to build 47 cars? ...that no one knew about???? I am just a little incredulous on that one.