Mystery solved. Shelby Trust to sell Real Cobras

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Editing the original to try to make it clearer:

It turns out that is likely not true. It is true 100% in CA . The MSO contains no restrictions. When I asked about it it was more of a free form discussion than an answer, but the best summary I can give is that CA was an absolute NO but there was no claim of an absolute YES in other places.

So to follow the progressions, other jurisdictions may not have the restriction that CA places on the power train/vehicle assembly. Others besides CA do as well. However, said vehicle will also likely never be licensable in those places that do place restrictions. That was as far as I went since I could sense it was sensitive topic. I'll wager with pretty high odds that vehicles will find their way on the streets in some places. I can pretty much guess at places I wouldn't even try and I can also guess a few places where you might have a shot. But if you want a guarantee, buy a muffler.

The Shelby/Trust/Denbeste/Kirkham and Shelby/Trust/Denbeste/Serb operation is NOT for a "for private use" only type operation. They plan to build and sell 30-40 cars. That's a real manufacturing operation with Shelby, DenBeste, Kirkham and Serb being for-profit operations. And just because a non-profit trust happens to be the seller, that's not going to change the character of this manufacturing operation. Shelby/Trust/Denbeste/Kirkham/Serb is NOT the same thing as me, private Schmoe individual, hiring and contracting with an installer, say like Hall Fabrication. I chose Hall Fab in Benicia. ME. I purchased the engine and trans. Shelby/Trust/DenBeste are completely directing the purchasing and installation of the car and materials. The ultimate buyer has no say about the builder/installer. The buyer's only say is the options he or she wants. That sounds like Ford, Chevy and Chrysler to me.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Trevor Legate

I'm still trying to figure out how anyone can build seriously expensive replicas of circa 40+ cars that never existed? That takes smoke and a lot of mirrors.

......

Bullseye.

Moreover, I don't believe these cars will be well received by SAAC or the Cobra community across the board due to their use of the 3000 series vins. I think this will affect their desireability and value including the hit and miss nature of where you may be able to register the things.

[fordracing65]

My uncle read the story today somewhere and told me they are making 3000 series Cobras that have been locked away for years... He bought it hook line and sinker, and he actually has a little knowledge of cars, think of how many buy these don't...

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Bullseye.

Moreover, I don't believe these cars will be well received by SAAC or the Cobra community across the board due to their use of the 3000 series vins.

I'm not so sure of that at all. There may be a few owners of original 1960's CSX3000 cars, who might welcome it. Why? Those first few Resurrection Cobras could be stuffed with lots of OEM parts. Why not buy the Resurrection Cobra to help restore your real original 1960's 3000 Cobra? Then get a bunch of run-of-the-mill parts from Shelby or Kirkham to put the Resurrection Cobra back together and then dump it on the market. Sure you would lose some money on the deal, but then you would use those OEM parts to restore you're genuine 1960's Cobra. Consider the cost difference on the buy and sell of the Resurrection Cobra as a portion of your restoration cost.

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I'm not so sure of that at all. There may be a few owners of original 1960's CSX3000 cars, who might welcome it. Why? Those first few Resurrection Cobras could be stuffed with lots of OEM parts. Why not buy the Resurrection Cobra to help restore your real original 1960's 3000 Cobra? Then get a bunch of run-of-the-mill parts from Shelby or Kirkham to put the Resurrection Cobra back together and then dump it on the market. Sure you would lose some money on the deal, but then you would use those OEM parts to restore you're genuine 1960's Cobra. Consider the cost difference on the buy and sell of the Resurrection Cobra as a portion of your restoration cost.

That is exactly what my mom said, and you know MOM's know best...

[kanuck]

You mean just like those who put a kirkham or brand X, aluminum body on a glass 4000 series car.

Dean

PS: AS far as value all they have to do is run one though Barret Jackson, loaded with shill bidders and with the whole dog and pony show, and run up the price just like they have done so many times before. and voila instant faux value.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I'm not so sure of that at all. There may be a few owners of original 1960's CSX3000 cars, who might welcome it. Why? Those first few Resurrection Cobras could be stuffed with lots of OEM parts. Why not buy the Resurrection Cobra to help restore your real original 1960's 3000 Cobra? Then get a bunch of run-of-the-mill parts from Shelby or Kirkham to put the Resurrection Cobra back together and then dump it on the market. Sure you would lose some money on the deal, but then you would use those OEM parts to restore you're genuine 1960's Cobra. Consider the cost difference on the buy and sell of the Resurrection Cobra as a portion of your restoration cost.

Hmmmm, let me see if I have this theory down pat. Soooo, owners of originals that are already "original" and may be missing a few items will spend $500,000.00 + dollars to buy one of the new "Completion" car just to cannibalize it for some parts and then hope to get back their purchase price and resell the car minus the original parts they cannibalized?

Then do they pass on the original bill of sale and build sheet or disclose the "missing" parts? If they don't disclose the parts it's fraud. Not many want to expose themselves to that. If they do disclose the missing parts then what is the car worth now? Also, since all the cars will apparently differ in the amount of original parts they carry, which car do they buy?

If This type of game starts to occur it will kill the value of these cars as no one will want to pay "big" $$$ for them never knowing if the car they are buying has been "raped" of its original list of parts. I would certainly approach such cars with caution if this type of shenanigans starts to take place.

Also, in most scenarios parts are worth sold more sold separately than as an entire vehicle when parted out. Why not sell the entire stash if it really exists and to whatever extent it exists separately item by item? Likely would bring far more in the end and then sell the CSX 3000 chassis separately to be completed as CSX 3XXX with a suffix like "H" for "historic" stamped onto each chassis and completed by Kirkham or McClusky to competition specs (not SC) that would clearly identify what they were and remove the objectionable issue of having them purpost to be part of a series they are not.

If the original run were completed they would not be SCs. Historically, had they been completed to the 100 needed they would have been comp spec.

Also, while I don't doubt DeBeneste was friendly with Carroll Shelby and if was DeBeneste that "ended" up with this "stash of parts" which the world is just now finding out existed raises another fertile ground for some real questions.

If Carroll had these parts he supposedly would have had them for many years. No?

I have never heard or read about this stash before. Been around Cobras for 20+ years and have participated on numerous forums dedicated to Shelbys and Cobras. Never heard anyone speak of it. Am I missing something? If so please enlighten me.

The current Registry doesn't mention such a stash. At least that I was able to find. I don't know if previous Registries did.

Asked a builder of a well known and very respected replica company and a restorer of originals and very knowledgeable regarding Cobras if they ever heard about this stash. Nope.

Carroll was very close friends with McClusky and Lynn Park. Why didn't one of those two end up with the parts if he "sold" them. Why not a family member?

If this secret mountain of "Shelby gold" existed I am incredulous that it remained such a secret likely from the 60's and all of a sudden the announcement is made in 2015 and "pow" the world is in awe. Really?

Why wasn't the announcement made back in the time frame with the previous Completion series was being ginned up? Carroll never mentioned such an original stash of "parts" as I recall. Again enlighten me if I a wrong. All he mentioned was the existence of 1965 Chassis "he found out back" then later said after getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar that he "was just misunderstood" clarifying only that they are "true to spec" 1965 chassis built by McClusky. He had the perfect chance to say "he what I meant was these are true to spec 1965 chassis to be adorned with vintage original parts and components making them true 1965 cars". He didn't even when he as in a jam with the State of Californication back peddling fast trying to avoid criminal issues. If ever there was a time to wheel out this stash that was the time.

The article at the top of this thread and the other article said he wanted the project completed "after his death". Really? Think about that. Make sense? Ah, no.

The pieces of this puzzle just don't seem to fit right to me.

Just say'n.

[twobjshelbys]

I saw one of CS's warehouses in 2009. Frames were there. Have photos.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Editing the original to try to make it clearer:

It turns out that is likely not true. It is true 100% in CA . The MSO contains no restrictions. When I asked about it it was more of a free form discussion than an answer, but the best summary I can give is that CA was an absolute NO but there was no claim of an absolute YES in other places.

So to follow the progressions, other jurisdictions may not have the restriction that CA places on the power train/vehicle assembly. Others besides CA do as well. However, said vehicle will also likely never be licensable in those places that do place restrictions. That was as far as I went since I could sense it was sensitive topic. I'll wager with pretty high odds that vehicles will find their way on the streets in some places. I can pretty much guess at places I wouldn't even try and I can also guess a few places where you might have a shot. But if you want a guarantee, buy a muffler.

Then somehow, they'll have to navigate around the Federal laws regarding the sales of completed cars that do not meet 2015 emission and safety standards. I can't wait to see that and I sure hope the first owner to register his or her Resurrection Cobra will it post it here.

Sorry to disagree with you on this one, but it is true,none of these cars will meet any kind of federal mandates on crash worthiness and emissions,so therefore they can not legally be licensed and driven on the road,yes,in all 50 states!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Will some slip thru the cracks at a local DMV office, yes likely,would I want to be caught driving one on the road,heck no.......

You can bet next months rent,all 50 states will be sent some kind of "memo" and if/when someone tries to license one, a red flag will appear on a computer screen somewhere....

David

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Hmmmm, let me see if I have this theory down pat. Soooo, owners of originals that are already "original" and may be missing a few items will spend $500,000.00 + dollars to buy one of the new "Completion" car just to cannibalize it for some parts and then hope to get back their purchase price and resell the car minus the original parts they cannibalized?

Then do they pass on the original bill of sale and build sheet or disclose the "missing" parts? If they don't disclose the parts it's fraud. Not many want to expose themselves to that. If they do disclose the missing parts then what is the car worth now? Also, since all the cars will apparently differ in the amount of original parts they carry, which car do they buy?

If This type of game starts to occur it will kill the value of these cars as no one will want to pay "big" $$$ for them never knowing if the car they are buying has been "raped" of its original list of parts. I would certainly approach such cars with caution if this type of shenanigans starts to take place.

Also, in most scenarios parts are worth sold more sold separately than as an entire vehicle when parted out. Why not sell the entire stash if it really exists and to whatever extent it exists separately item by item? Likely would bring far more in the end and then sell the CSX 3000 chassis separately to be completed as CSX 3XXX with a suffix like "H" for "historic" stamped onto each chassis and completed by Kirkham or McClusky to competition specs (not SC) that would clearly identify what they were and remove the objectionable issue of having them purpost to be part of a series they are not.

If the original run were completed they would not be SCs. Historically, had they been completed to the 100 needed they would have been comp spec.

Also, while I don't doubt DeBeneste was friendly with Carroll Shelby and if was DeBeneste that "ended" up with this "stash of parts" which the world is just now finding out existed raises another fertile ground for some real questions.

If Carroll had these parts he supposedly would have had them for many years. No?

I have never heard or read about this stash before. Been around Cobras for 20+ years and have participated on numerous forums dedicated to Shelbys and Cobras. Never heard anyone speak of it. Am I missing something? If so please enlighten me.

The current Registry doesn't mention such a stash. At least that I was able to find. I don't know if previous Registries did.

Asked a builder of a well known and very respected replica company and a restorer of originals and very knowledgeable regarding Cobras if they ever heard about this stash. Nope.

Carroll was very close friends with McClusky and Lynn Park. Why didn't one of those two end up with the parts if he "sold" them. Why not a family member?

If this secret mountain of "Shelby gold" existed I am incredulous that it remained such a secret likely from the 60's and all of a sudden the announcement is made in 2015 and "pow" the world is in awe. Really?

Why wasn't the announcement made back in the time frame with the previous Completion series was being ginned up? Carroll never mentioned such an original stash of "parts" as I recall. Again enlighten me if I a wrong. All he mentioned was the existence of 1965 Chassis "he found out back" then later said after getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar that he "was just misunderstood" clarifying only that they are "true to spec" 1965 chassis built by McClusky. He had the perfect chance to say "he what I meant was these are true to spec 1965 chassis to be adorned with vintage original parts and components making them true 1965 cars". He didn't even when he as in a jam with the State of Californication back peddling fast trying to avoid criminal issues. If ever there was a time to wheel out this stash that was the time.

The article at the top of this thread and the other article said he wanted the project completed "after his death". Really? Think about that. Make sense? Ah, no.

The pieces of this puzzle just don't seem to fit right to me.

Just say'n.

So, are you telling me that every original '60's series car is restored or nearly restored and doesn't need a bunch of OEM parts to start/finish the owner's restoration? This parts stash is a treasure trove of OEM parts. A very wealthy owner, someone who owns 30-40 rare vintage cars in his or her collection, buys the Resurrection Cobra, takes the rare unobtainium parts he or she needs from it and then resells it. Or keep it. Of course, disclose the fact that "these" specific parts are no longer on the car and sell it. Why not? I can complete the restoration of "my" original '60's 3000 series, which now will win all sorts of awards at the next SAAC Convention and is now worth $3,000,000 or whatever.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD

.

You can bet next months rent,all 50 states will be sent some kind of "memo" and if/when someone tries to license one, a red flag will appear on a computer screen somewhere....

David

Who's going to send that email?

And, do you think the geniuses at the DMV's will understand the significance and then react to it? For a total of 30 cars?

If the state doesn't already have laws in place forbidding this, to protect the public against all types of hazards, like CA does, I don't think any particular DMV is going to go the extra mile.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

So, are you telling me that every original '60's series car is restored or nearly restored and doesn't need a bunch of OEM parts to start/finish the owner's restoration? This parts stash is a treasure trove of OEM parts. A very wealthy owner, someone who owns 30-40 rare vintage cars in his or her collection, buys the Resurrection Cobra, takes the rare unobtainium parts he or she needs from it and then resells it. Or keep it. Of course, disclose the fact that "these" specific parts are no longer on the car and sell it. Why not? I can complete the restoration of "my" original '60's 3000 series, which now will win all sorts of awards at the next SAAC Convention and is now worth $3,000,000 or whatever.

I know if I had an "original" cobra, I wouldn't spend megabucks on original parts. It's an original car, it doesn;t need to have all original parts, down to the spring clips or rubber boots. Those extra original parts are worth more putting them together for these cars than they are worth selling them to the owners of "original" cars. We'll see how big of a money maker these cars will be. Carroll couldn't sell them 20 years ago, maybe there is a market for these cars now, built the way they are doing them. It's a business.

[razerwire]

Private people don't talk about their stash. If you need a part to finish your early cobra they will most likely give it to you, but none of it is for sale. I hope the kids know the value and make the most of stash when passed to them.

[Bernica]

I do have a pretty reliable friend in Seattle that told me he had seen the "Stash" somewhere in a Gardena warehouse years ago. Over the years I have also asked lots of other folks and never found anyone else that could or would confirm.

I would venture a guess that CS could have had a nasty NDA in place with the likes of DenBeste and McCluskey about such a stash where DenBeste would not get the Shelby Engine Company and McCluskey wouldn't be allowed to do the builds if they violated the NDA. Who the hell knows?

I would be curious what Gary Patterson at CS would have to offer on this whole matter...

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by NewYorkGuy

Mr. Kirkham calls these 'cars' a work of art? are they? most art and art historians judge art by artists and originality, one offs. Picasso painted himself. he didn't hire a team to mix his paints or paint for him.


."

That's a pretty stupid statement. Then basically no car ever made would be considered art.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Anthony

That's a pretty stupid statement. Then basically no car ever made would be considered art.

Anthony, I'm hoping it didn't take you 21 pages to figure out that NYG's elevator doesn't go to the top floor. Though, it could be a union problem, since he lives in NY.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Bernica

I do have a pretty reliable friend...

Now HERE come the stories. We have Evan speaking with his confidants too. Next we'll have DA BUNNIES posting inside info on this parts stash/horde.

Everybody knows somebody. Well I'm going on record as not knowing any one. Period. I have no stories to tell because I have no Shelby, SAAC or any "double secret probation" type people. I'm just a regular guy.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I know if I had an "original" cobra, I wouldn't spend megabucks on original parts. It's an original car, it doesn;t need to have all original parts, down to the spring clips or rubber boots. Those extra original parts are worth more putting them together for these cars than they are worth selling them to the owners of "original" cars. We'll see how big of a money maker these cars will be. Carroll couldn't sell them 20 years ago, maybe there is a market for these cars now, built the way they are doing them. It's a business.

Then you don't understand anal retentive perfectionist behavior like I do.

There are folks all over the world looking for that one last part to make their rare piece of history juuuussssst right.

I don't know if the OEM parts stash exists or not, and maybe it's just one shelf's worth of the Almighty Lucas wiper motors or something, but it sure does create some hysteria and excitement around here. That I'm grateful for.

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Now HERE come the stories. We have Evan speaking with his confidants too. Next we'll have DA BUNNIES posting inside info on this parts stash/horde.

Everybody knows somebody. Well I'm going on record as not knowing any one. Period. I have no stories to tell because I have no Shelby, SAAC or any "double secret probation" type people. I'm just a regular guy.

And I'm just a semi-retired dumb ass contractor!
Like I said, I only heard the rumor once.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

So, are you telling me that every original '60's series car is restored or nearly restored and doesn't need a bunch of OEM parts to start/finish the owner's restoration? This parts stash is a treasure trove of OEM parts. A very wealthy owner, someone who owns 30-40 rare vintage cars in his or her collection, buys the Resurrection Cobra, takes the rare unobtainium parts he or she needs from it and then resells it. Or keep it. Of course, disclose the fact that "these" specific parts are no longer on the car and sell it. Why not? I can complete the restoration of "my" original '60's 3000 series, which now will win all sorts of awards at the next SAAC Convention and is now worth $3,000,000 or whatever.

I don't know the state of restoration or completion for every original cobra out there. I doubt anyone does. A lot of these original parts were obtainable individually on a limited basis. So if the owner needed an original park here in there there were sources to go to.. Very few of them were unattainable.

It's just that no one knew or thought it was a stash – the size of which would allow 47 cars to be built. I just find it very hard to believe that such a large stash was kept secret for over 50 years and all of a sudden now is shown to the world. How do we know the parts in the stash are all original and many are not repros?

I am not saying that a wealthy owner of an original car could not buy one of these cars to use as a parts car. This just seems to me a very expensive way to obtain some original parts. And this would obviously destroy or damage whatever value the completion car had to begin with. Such a trend would also in my opinion completely undermine the value and desirability of this new completion car in addition to the issues they already have trying to carry off CSX 3000 vins. These new completion cars are in reality simply continuation Shelby's stamped with 3000 vin numbers and more original parts in many cases the same or close to in some other cases.