Looking for upgrade axels

[Moto One]

patrickt,

The basic construction is the same, but its not a bold thru attachment to the stub like on a Porsche/VW. I haven't taken the axel all the way out yet to see how the stub is connected. I'v re-greased many CV on my early Porsches, so Im familiar with how CVs work. The ones on the car look to be much smaller than on the Porsche.

Mark.

[Gaz64]

Hi Mark,

Looking at your photos, I've never seen a CV fail like that.

It doesn't look catastrophic from too much power etc, but somehow the inner of the female and possibly all the balls are ground up to nothing.

And yet the male is still intact.

Gary

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Gaz64

Hi Mark,

Looking at your photos...

What photos????

[Moto One]

I emailed photos to Gary.

If Gary can post them that would be great. I have no way (don't have a sever account anymore)

Mark.

[Gaz64]

First image Mark.

[Gaz64]

Sorry Mark, something wrong with img 775.

Gary

[patrickt]

Well that must have been one helluva U-turn.

[Moto One]

So today I remove the axel, and inspected the damaged CV, well guess what? All the balls are intact the cage is intact, there is no (repeat NO) damage to any of the parts. It just looks like the CV just rotated the inner part on the axel out leaving all the other parts in the in side the outer ring.

I'v seen damaged CVs where the balls exploded, or the cage gave up, or broke the splined end of shaft off. Never this where all the parts are there undamaged.

Now to get new axels...

Mark.

[eschaider]

Mark,

The ZF diff that you have in your car and new Camaro's use, needs the super-strength stub shafts that G-Force builds for the diff. You not only pick up a near indestructible stub shaft, you also get the ability to use the giant Porsche 930 CV joints. No one else that I know of offers this for the ZF diff.

In your case instead of asking for the Ford 8.8 versions you want to ask for the corresponding new Camaro axle package. It will come with super duty stub shafts, the upgraded giant Porsche 930 CV joints and extraordinarily strong axle half shafts. Because our cars have a different width rear axle assembly than a Camaro you will need ask the G-Force guys how they want you to measure the width back there and they will build the half shafts to fit your car.

Believe me it is worth the effort. You already had one whoops, you don't need another. Under power this type of failure con crash the car. This is the short way home to fix the shortcoming. Here is the link => G-Force Camaro Axles


Ed

[Moto One]

Thanks Ed,

I was just in contact with the Driveshaftshop, in NC, they basically recommended
the same thing. Right now we are working with Superformance on having this, the concern is that the current axel shaft (right side) may not be the right length. As noted none of our parts other than the CV that show no internal damage, shows any damage. We will be going to DSS or G-Force for upgraded axes Once we have the shaft length pined down.

Mark.

Mark.

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by Moto One

So today I remove the axel, and inspected the damaged CV, well guess what? All the balls are intact the cage is intact, there is no (repeat NO) damage to any of the parts. It just looks like the CV just rotated the inner part on the axel out leaving all the other parts in the in side the outer ring.

I'v seen damaged CVs where the balls exploded, or the cage gave up, or broke the splined end of shaft off. Never this where all the parts are there undamaged.

Now to get new axels...

Mark.

So the spline is stripped?

Seen that a few times, cheap hardening process.

Gary

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by Moto One

Thanks Ed,

I was just in contact with the Driveshaftshop, in NC, they basically recommended
the same thing. Right now we are working with Superformance on having this, the concern is that the current axel shaft (right side) may not be the right length. As noted none of our parts other than the CV that show no internal damage, shows any damage. We will be going to DSS or G-Force for upgraded axes Once we have the shaft length pined down.

Mark.

Mark.

Depending on the install that might be the case, Mark. I believe SPF offset the diff to allow for the use of equal length axles — but I can't say with certainty. My car had the Australian Dana and I never bothered to check. I just removed it and installed the 8.8 HD Ford IRS center section out of an Explorer. Here is a picture of the Explorer diff on theft and the 03/04 Cobra Diff on the right, click here => Diff Comparison

The Cobra diff is what SPF used to supply before the broohaha over licensing became an issue. Later after securing the licensing agreement the decision had already been made to go to the Aussie Dana. That was followed in short order with the election to use the ZF unit you currently have.

I elected to use equal length axles for obvious reasons and offset the diff to accommodate this. I suspect but don't know with certainty that the ZF is offset by SPF for similar reasons and you will probably require equal length axles.

Whoever you use to source your replacement axles and associated hardware from should be easily capable of telling you how to measure your car to determine the correct axle length. If they can't you are using the wrong firm.

Although it sounds a little elitist you really don't want to settle for anything less than the 930 Porsche CV joints when they are so easily obtained. The inner race on the G-Force versions of the Porsche CV's is a custom made hardened steel replacement with a 30 something spline count. Don't get sucked into using the smaller 28 spline OEM Porsche spline count units — they will fail with the kind of torque we can produce.


Ed

p.s. Although I didn't specifically say so, the install of the HD Ford Explorer 8.8 IRS center requires building the front and rear diff chassis mounts. Not a big deal but not a trivial endeavor either. Effort not withstanding, it is a definite upgrade to the car.

[Moto One]

Gary, no spline damage, it just looks like the CV undid it self. All parts show no damage.

Ed, the spline count is 31 on the diff (ZF) that I know for sure, I should count the hub side. the Manual just notes that the hub and stub are custom made, what ever that means.

I'll update this when we find out more. Our damaged axel has been sent back to Superformance for inspection. Our best guess right now is the axels may be to short.

Mark.

[eschaider]

31 is the right number to use, Mark. The OEM style stubshafts however, while OK for a Detroit production car are not the quality or strength you want for one of our cars. The GForce package is and the best part is they have the whole shebang.

Because you use the ZF center and SPF outer hubs they would use their Camaro stubs which also use the Porsche 930 CVs to fit the ZF center. The outer ends of the shaft would have to fit the SPF wheel hubs which (on my SPF) are like the 99-04 Cobra IRS drive hubs. The GForce outers also use the big 930 Porsche CVs. GForce has an off the shelf axle end assembly for the Ford drive hubs.

They would ship you both the stub shaft and the splined end for the Ford drive hubs. With both installed and the car at ride height you would measure from one 930 CV to the other 930 CV and they would cut your axles to exactly fit your car. It is hard to get much better than that.

The guy you want to talk to at GForce is Billy and his phone # is 316.260.8433. This is a walk in the park upgrade for both you and them.


Ed



p.s. Although the doc says the hubs are custom made, I strongly suspect they are Detroit OEM hubs from Ford. The spline detail will tell the story. A truly custom hub would require a custom axle shaft end to mate with it. There would be no manufacturing or business reason to go to so many one off custom design pieces. Moreover, it would spike the cost of the car upward. The words in the manual are more likely marketing hype that sounds good without any real world basis in fact.

[Moto One]

Thanks Ed.

Great information.

Mark.

[Moto One]

Update...

Well we have an axel, same axel we had before with new CVs. They thought the axel cv that failed was because it was not shimmed right. When we asked what the play at full load should be we got a, "well we are not sure," "but if its to tight it will damage the cv's","if to loose it will damage the cv". Our car had only one shim and it pulled the cv apart, like maybe it was too tight at full extension. They sent extra shims. If any one had a clearance/play number please reply. I'll be cross checking the play off the other axel for starters.

By the way, adding a shim will in effect lengthen the axel (shims go on the wheel hub side). Humm? That will reduce spline engagement, won't it? By putting more load at the end of the spline shaft. Maybe that how they break that part.

Mark.

[crazychris]

Originally Posted by Moto One

Update...

Well we have an axel, same axel we had before with new CVs. They thought the axel cv that failed was because it was not shimmed right. When we asked what the play at full load should be we got a, "well we are not sure," "but if its to tight it will damage the cv's","if to loose it will damage the cv". Our car had only one shim and it pulled the cv apart, like maybe it was too tight at full extension. They sent extra shims. If any one had a clearance/play number please reply. I'll be cross checking the play off the other axel for starters.

By the way, adding a shim will in effect lengthen the axel (shims go on the wheel hub side). Humm? That will reduce spline engagement, won't it? By putting more load at the end of the spline shaft. Maybe that how they break that part.

Mark.

Did you ever get your broken axle sorted? I have the same issue. The car is 2015 superformance mkIII build and I was jumping on it and when I hit second gear the driver side axle broke. I am trying to get the car fixed, but not sure what steps to take in terms of either upgrading the axles or just replacing the one that failed. So, what was your outcome and any recommendations..

[Moto One]

Answered you're PM. We had a CV failure, cause (speculated) that the shimming at the hub was not enough for the play need in the axel. CV's were replaced, and a shim added to both sides to give added play.

Mark.