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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 08-07-2011, 10:17 PM
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A good overview of the new carbon tax policy.

Carbon tax announcement: Gillard government's 'clean energy future' | Crikey

So the government will collect the tax but a "nine-member Climate Change Authority (headed by Bernie Fraser) to recommend caps and targets and advise on all aspects of the scheme".

In other words the government will not be held accountable.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2011, 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted by jcraigau View Post
I agree that there is such a thing as climate change. For millions of years things have changed, ice age, rises in temperature increase ocean levels etc etc...

The greenhouse effect was invented about 1820 and they noticed CO2 was a factor.

Is the increase in carbon we use causing it? may be.

Will introducing a socialist meathod of wealth distribution fix it - NO.

Giving money to the winnie blue brigade will shut them up and keep these reds in power. It's a sham discguised as a green initiative.

Why should I have to pay these "people" money when I didn't vote for them. Every year there is less and less incentive to improve yourself. I'd take home the same money if I was on 35K with handouts as 100K, "paying my part".

I will continue to eat meat as often as possible and drive both of my V8s because we live in the lucky country - despite what the pollies are trying to do.

If they were serious the UN would take charge and every country would be paying their "carbon tax" to remove the CO2 producing industries throughout the world.

For instance it was reported that China used over 3 billion metric tons of coal last year. So will our 71 billions dollars raised be used to build a bubble over our country to stop their CO2 getting into our atmosphere?


Yep...u got it all right there.

A couple of absolutely fundamental questions for Gillard and Co that they cannot answer.

1/ What affect will a carbon tax on Australians have on Global emmissions?

2/ If we are sooooo worried about polluting the air via coal fired power stations, why do we continue to export billions of tons of coal overseas for other countries to emit many many times the Co2 we emit.

If Labor go even close to answering either question, I will eat this computer. The fact is....they cant. Why? Because the tax in NONSENSE.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2011, 03:32 AM
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With apologises to any Academics on this site (especially you Merv) just what we need, another bunch of looney academics tell us what we need to do
Seriously, they live in a dream world & most have NO clue as to how the real world works.
I don't expect that many would have heard ABC conversations a week or to ago, but there was a gentleman scientist on , ( I can't remember his name ) who said that his mates working for some of Australia's best Uni's HAD to support climate change because if they didn't they would loose ALL their funding. He said he smelled a rat and his mate were told to keep quite
Whilst I don't agree OR disagree re Climate Change,we will never know all the facts while people in the real know are essentially coerced/forced to tread the Gov't line .
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2011, 03:34 AM
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Cameron, fair enough you are entitled to your opinion.

Its a grab for cash and will have no impact on climate at all, but it will on your wallet.
Do you remember Ken Henry and his report on taxation ?. Over a hundred recomendations to simplify the system and they used 3, because it would cut their revenue to implent others.A feel good stunt paid by you and me for what ?.

These science folk are employed by the government to spin the government line, they are conflicted and have failed to prove anything as yet. It should be noted in the last decade the temperature actually fell.
Recent Volcano's have spewed more C02 into the air than the entire automotive industry since inception if other scientists are to be believed.

Remember this government could not put insulation into a roof without burning houses down and know they are fixing the climate problems of the world for 10c a week. Thats their figures on what they are taking and what they are giving back.
Beaurecrats are the big winners here as their numbers multiply like a virus and we are paying for the lot.

Forgive me for being sceptical when ANY goverment in power tries to have me swallow bull****. They will give you 10 and take 20 everytime.History has proved it time and again.

Dont get me started on eating meat.......you can go up North and station owners will give you a gun and you can have as much meat as you want. Another knee jerk decision in a billion dollar industry.

There has to be a better way !

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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2011, 04:19 AM
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I think that there are some serious environmental issues for the future at stake here, as Cameron points out. However, the whole thing has been linked (cleverly or not) to a 'carbon tax' that has not been justified or explained satisfactorily.

I don't think that ignoring the environmental issues will make them go away, but neither will a tax achieve any desired change. Sadly, none of our three political parties has presented with credibility on this issue.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2011, 07:03 AM
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Some varied comments there and I cant possible respond to them all. Instead just some more comments.

Yes our total emmissions are small compared to the rest of the world, so why should we do anything if they dont. However, as Malcolm Turnbull recent said, Australians are the highest poluters per person in the world. We each make 5 times the Co2 as the average Chineese and 10 times as much as the average Indian so they would probably say "Why should we, who are poor and make very little emmisions do anything when the rich Australians who polute more than anybody wont do anything"

Somebody has to be the Adult here.

Well, the real cause of all this is population growth. I have to say that I agree with Dick Smith on this. We seem to be addicted to growth as it drives capitalism. The company I work for wants to grow and I bet yours does too. All the companies out there want population growth so they can all grow.

But are we better off?

The companies tell us it will increase our standard of living. But the increase in house prices, farm prices etc is erroding our standard of living. I bought some farm land a few years back but the loan repayments are more than the profit from the crop. I'm not sure my kids will ever be able to buy a house of their own.

I heard an interview with the outgoing president of the WWF (world for wildlife fund). He said thet they were founded to prevent extinctions but they hadnt saved one. He said that he thought that if they had spent all the money they raised on condoms they might have had more success (most extinctions are caused by loss of habbitat which is caused by increasing populations).

Talking about population growth is political suicide, even the Greens wont do it. So the governments do the next best thing. Pollution/carbon tax. Although it looks like this will also be political suicide.

At least we all have opinions which is better than apathy
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2011, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by cameron02 View Post
Hi Dimis,
I think you might be a little too synical about the tax as they seem to be giving a lot of it backCameron - I love your trusting nature, but you are being taken for a ride. I have done the numbers and the vast majority (including low income earners) will be worse off. .

Unfortunately this government seems to be incompetant and unable to explain its policy'sYou surely conceed its a pretty simple concept... However, the government is restricted in deliverying its message clearly because of what they aren't willing to tell you!.

All the tax has to do is make Green energy (solar, wind, geo thermal etc) the same price as fossil fuel energy. If this is true then please Ms Prime Minister, please tell me why we are selling our coal to India where they are able to burn the same coal using the same methods as our power stations, yet they are able to trade carbon & CLAIM Carbon CREDITS on the international scene, yet we are being forced by our Government to pay a TAX despite our station burning less coal in exactly the same way?!. (happy to offer citation & reference PM me)

Given the choice (at the same price) most people will choose green energy (maybe as you say I'm a moron, my wife would agree with you) Apologies, you are not a moron, just a gent who has been conned by the propaganda, either because of ignorance or you overly trusting pleasent nature. However, if you continue to belive that the carbon tax will even remotely help save the planet, after you've done any research - then Sir, you would be deserving of the title of moron

We dont have to fix the world. Just our bit of it.More of your heart is in the right place... the government is banking on this sentiment

I agree with you about the minning tax. It was a great idea and the government got scared and backed down. Its our resources they are selling and I believe we have a right to charge more if they are making more.
Cam,

I've done my fair share of analysis on this topic and am not speaking flipently. The carbon tax is a tax! Make no mistake, the word Cabon has been placed in front b/c its the buzz word of our time and it allows the government to fool the local good hearted citizen into reluctantly accepting a tax, as they feel they'll be saving the word!

I'm sorry, there is no other way to describe it other than lipstick on a pig!

I do my bit to save the planet, I ride, run and walk to work, have eco-friendlied our old home, etc... all in the name of assiting the cause. If I thought a TAX would assist I'd accept & pay it, but frankly by my calculations the maths doesn't add up!

Kind regards,

Apologies, this is far too political for a cobra forum

Last edited by Dimis; 08-08-2011 at 07:16 AM..
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2011, 07:15 AM
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Hi Merv,

I agree, this government has been incapable of explaining the tax. In fact I dont think they have explained any of their policies well.

I have been trying to research Climate change for a while now and it is extremely complicated. Too difficult for me to understand. Hence why I get my information from those who are qualified in the subject. The goverment seems to have put it in the too hard explain basket (which it is). Which has left some prominate (unqualified) people to make all sorts of claims. Most of these claims are quickly debunked by professionals but it gets no press and the govenment just lets it pass. Probably because they are not capable of debating it themselves.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2011, 07:17 AM
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Hi Dimis,

Fair comments mate.
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Old 08-08-2011, 07:25 AM
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Hey Bernie,

I forgot to mention. Kangaroo's dont fart (true). So you can eat as much Kangaroo as you like. Unfortunately not enough of them to feed everbody. But I love em they taste great and hardly any fat.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2011, 07:45 AM
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Can someone "PLEASE EXPLAIN"
...Why 10% of the $70 + Billion goes to the UN??????
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Old 08-08-2011, 03:47 PM
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That is very interesting Paul and one has to wonder why.

Cameron, I work in the same Faculty as a fairly large group of climate scientists (I am not one of them), and sit in on many of their project reports, research seminars, PhD presentations and so on. It is very interesting and informative. They are a dedicated lot with many practical local and regional connections to reduce beach erosion, support climate change mitigation and adaptation in low-lying neighbour nations, support cheaper solar energy use in this region and reduce industrial emissions.

While I am personally in no doubt about the big picture on climate change and our role in it, I have major reservations about how our national government is going about the process of including Australians in the process and more importantly, developing new industries to replace of supplement those that are in the line of fire from the Carbon tax. There is an almost complete lack of practical initiative and future strategy coming out of any of our governments, state or national.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2011, 09:22 PM
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Interesting insights Merv. Now I'm more scared than before.

Hi OzCobra, nope I cant explain it and did not know about it. Where did you see/hear about it?

Anybody interested in the population debate can look here:
Dick Smith Population
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Old 08-08-2011, 11:53 PM
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Respectfully, the emmissions per capita debate argument is flawed. Even the government have not trotted out this chestnut for a while now months because it makes no mathematical sense.

Reason being is that total emmisions is not linked %age wise to population. A doubling of our population would not equate to a doubling of our emmisions. If (globally) the per capita debate was accepted as a measure for all nations to reduce, then the first thing we should do is open our borders, re introduce baby bonuses to increase our population hence reducing the per capita figure.
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Old 08-09-2011, 12:25 AM
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Good point HSV Red Sled, you are right. Economies of scale etc.

I brought it up as a counter point to the argument that Australia's total emmisions are low compared to China etc. This argument also has many flaws.

I was trying to illistrate that if we are childish and say Na na na na na. then so will they. I feel that all nations need to act and urgently. The time to act will never be perfect.

Its unusual for me to make so many responses. Two reasons: I am passionate about this subject and I've got the day off
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Old 08-09-2011, 03:12 AM
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Good point HSV Red Sled, you are right. Economies of scale etc.

I brought it up as a counter point to the argument that Australia's total emmisions are low compared to China etc. This argument also has many flaws.

I was trying to illistrate that if we are childish and say Na na na na na. then so will they. I feel that all nations need to act and urgently. The time to act will never be perfect.

Its unusual for me to make so many responses. Two reasons: I am passionate about this subject and I've got the day off
Dont get me wrong...

We put a crap into the air...I admit that, but Australia does not have a half dome made of glass placed over it. We have to work with the rest of the world to address this issue globally.

Again I ask the quesation. How will a CO2 tax in Australia affect global emmissions? Anybody? Please answer?

We emit three parts of fark all emmissions globally, yet we have this tax forced upon us. It is....A JOKE. In simple terms.

Hung government. Juliar needed green vote to remotely square Libs. Then she does deals with renegade independents to form a minority government. She is now hamstrung. One of these loonies cross the floor...she is done.
But that wont happen. They have dug their graves in support of this nonsense, but have a nice parliamentary pension awaiting!

Governor General should intervene to stop this lunacy...but guess what... GG son in law is Bill Shorten!!!!!

It is complete lunacy and history will make Whitlam look like a genius compared to this nonsense.

I love to be wrong. Please...anybody...prove me wrong. What affect will this tax have on GLOBAL Emmisions? We do not live under a glass jar. GLOBAL EMMISSIONS.....please....
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2011, 03:31 AM
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...you can eat as much Kangaroo as you like. Unfortunately not enough of them to feed everbody
are you sure? have you been to central NSW?
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Old 08-09-2011, 02:44 PM
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I tend to go with the experts on this stuff. I remember the previous government and our 'deputy sheriff' going off to wars that most of us did not want. We made little difference and spent billions and lost lives and in reality made little difference, when other nations did nothing. I guess we try to do the right thing and that costs sometimes.
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Old 08-09-2011, 07:53 PM
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I tend to go with the experts on this stuff. I remember the previous government and our 'deputy sheriff' going off to wars that most of us did not want. We made little difference and spent billions and lost lives and in reality made little difference, when other nations did nothing. I guess we try to do the right thing and that costs sometimes.
Merv,

I must admit I'm a little more cynical than your knowledgeable self. I believe government works more along the lines of:

As long as we are perceived to "try to do the right thing" it doesn't matter "how much it costs sometimes".

But, 'tis the world we live.
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Old 08-09-2011, 07:59 PM
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I think you're right Dimis.
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