Are we in danger

[cameron02]

Hi Lal Naja,

I agree re population. It seems that climate change may do the culling you speak of.

Some of the dangers they spoke of in the 70's were quite real I understand. I am not an expert on the topic but didnt acid rain kill the great lakes in Canada. Isnt that why they introduced lead free petrol. We also banned CFC's and that seems to have done the job. I dont think anybody offshore uses CFC's to my knowledge. These things can be done if governments refuse to purchase products from countries that do not comply.

I agree about follow the money trail but cant agree where it leads. The BRW richest list a whole bunch of minning executives but I have not seen any Greens. See link
BRW Rich List: Gina Rinehart on top, non-miners a drag | Crikey

[LoBelly]

I dont think the re-release of all that carbon will mean the end of life or mankind.

Just the end of our way of life now.

And some rather sharp adjustments as oil scarcity approaches and becomes acute

Its not like we don't know.



LoBelly

[lal Naja]

Originally Posted by LoBelly

I dont think the re-release of all that carbon will mean the end of life or mankind.

Just the end of our way of life now.

And some rather sharp adjustments as oil scarcity approaches and becomes acute

Its not like we don't know.



LoBelly

Easter Island is a great example of how too many people can really Flub things up. I've spent time there with one of the leading Anthropologists from the University of Chile. And yes, they finally started eating each other to survive. And their Happy science at the time was to build bloody big statues and then when that failed they invented the Bird-Man cult. Watch out humans, you will someday be forced to eat your children too.

After traveling the world in my younger days and visiting far corners of the Earth, yes it has corners and is still flat to some. The first thing I did when returning to civilization was to make sure I would never have offspring, Snip-snip went the conection to future life. That's how much trouble I saw ahead and that was in the 70tees.

[jmimac351]

"Green" is the new "Red". In America, public opinion has taken a turn against buying into the man-made global warming fraud. There is another fraud that will be taken care of Nov '12.

If an idea is better and can sustain itself from an economic standpoint it does not require incentives from the government. Ethanol gets big subsidies here in America because it cannot survive on its own. Yet, it is less efficient, uses more energy to produce, competes with the food supply, and actually pollutes more. "Green" and Ethanol are two things which make people feel better about themselves but actually have far different motives supporting them other than making sense. It's about the money and power and always will be. Nothing new.

[lal Naja]

Originally Posted by cameron02

Hi Lal Naja,

I agree re population. It seems that climate change may do the culling you speak of.

Some of the dangers they spoke of in the 70's were quite real I understand. I am not an expert on the topic but didnt acid rain kill the great lakes in Canada. Isnt that why they introduced lead free petrol. We also banned CFC's and that seems to have done the job. I dont think anybody offshore uses CFC's to my knowledge. These things can be done if governments refuse to purchase products from countries that do not comply.

I agree about follow the money trail but cant agree where it leads. The BRW richest list a whole bunch of minning executives but I have not seen any Greens. See link
BRW Rich List: Gina Rinehart on top, non-miners a drag | Crikey

The subject is far too complicated to have a "yes it is so answer." I had friends that worked for Fermi and Argon labs and funding is a job and a way of life. Without funding you join the 14 million out of work group. People have been studying and researching for 30 years without any real conclusive answers. Yes, nematodes will die if you spill oil on them. I've never been that lucky. Got stuck in having to produce stuff that humans need and had to do it at a profit. "Profit" another dirty word.

As is CFC's. Sadly Chloroflurocarbons are still being used in manufacturing. If these were totally banned the world would stop functioning. Many products using CFC's were redesigned where possible, but it's far from being totally gone. Stop it and 28 million will be looking for work.

The great lakes, I live a few blocks from one, has had some issues but nothing that I know of that is a serious problem. If you know more enlighten me please.

Sulfurdioxide is the main cause of acid rain and if you burn any fossil fuel including your cozy fireplace, you contribute to it. But this is what we humans do. We burn crap. After all, it is deep in our survival DNA. When we tamed fire we were able scare off the beasts that had us for dinner. Then we got to sit around it and keep warm. That was freedom to evolve. Imagine being able to shed the old way of life huddling in fear in the dark and in silence. And with that great opportunity man was able to take time to contemplate reason.

As far as Lead, it too is bad on the brain. Too much of it and you have drain bammage for sure

As for Gore. He's pretty comfortable in his 7million $ home on the ocean. Consuming fossil fuel to keep the lights on and buying carbon credits for forgiveness. What happened to the ocean rising 20' in the next few years?

Just remember! At the top they play with our lives.

Oh, and BTW. If you own a cat or a small dog each has the carbon footpring of a VW beetle. A large dog is equivalent to a SUV. Here in the USA dog owners are responsible for 95 million piles of poop every day and cat owners contribute to 65 million piles of it. Most of this crap is disposed of inappropriately. And at least 50% of these owners claim they are Green.

[HSVREDSLED]

Imagine if we were around a few thousand lifetimes ago and we were heading towards an ice age? What propaganda would the respective govts sprout?

Australia...wake up!!! This is nonsense. ANY SUPPORTER OF A CO2 TAX...PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I beg you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What will be the effect on Global emmisions of imposing a Carbon Dioxide tax on Australia?

Please??????? Anybody???????????????? FFS?

[lal Naja]

Originally Posted by HSVREDSLED

Imagine if we were around a few thousand lifetimes ago and we were heading towards an ice age? What propaganda would the respective govts sprout?

Australia...wake up!!! This is nonsense. ANY SUPPORTER OF A CO2 TAX...PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I beg you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What will be the effect on Global emmisions of imposing a Carbon Dioxide tax on Australia?

Please??????? Anybody???????????????? FFS?

And thank you humans for all the extra CO2. It has kept us warmer and most likely thwarted an ice age. We are now further away from the sun than we were thousands of years ago. And continue to drift further every day. Just the physics of that prooves that extra corbon has been good for earth. We have a lot more healthy trees too as a result of that. Without tha carbon perhaps we would now look like Easter Island with not a single tree standing on this green earth.

And imagine how much more fossel fuel we would have to burn keep warm in an ice age. So much that it would be like the begnning of the industrial revolution when we turned the sky black. Then again black sky, black snow & ice the planet will warm up again. See CARBON has been good for us.

[Merv and Sharon]

This is an interesting commentary on the transitions we experience. We no longer dig asbestos, despite the loss of jobs. We no longer, in Australia, sell many guns despite the loss of jobs and 'sport'. We no longer shoot many wild animals because of their near extinction. However, during the last couple of decades someone seems to have made the decision that climate change is all about the money and the jobs. Mother nature has always coped, in some way before, but She has never had to deal with 7 billion people.

[jcraigau]

Be careful what you wish for. If we stop all carbon in a million years there will be no diamonds and then my wife will really have something to complain about !!!

[Rog246]

Originally Posted by Merv and Sharon

Seriously though Lo Belly, it is excellent and should be compulsory watching in schools. Natural events such as volcanoes took 250 million years to produce the degree of change that 7 billion people are producing in 100 years. All jokes aside, if ever one doubted ... The real question is can we do anything and is it too late to reverse or even slow the process?

Anyway, thanks for sharing this.

Merv the REAL question/problem which NO one will broach is there are just too many people on the planet. I think we should draw up a list of those who have to be euthanased (or how ever you spell it !) 1st.
My vote is we go with the Pollies 1st, then the lawyers, then real estate agents, used car sales people, insurance sales people, then we start on the crims ! LOL

Somewhere on this post it was said that the boffins discovered the CO2 problem in 1820 ! I have to ask "did it occur to anyone that the horse population in 1820 was contributing to the co2 problem ? and what about the great herds of buffalo that used to roam in Nth America, as well as all the critters on the great African herds ?"
There is no denying that just by being here we contribute.
As I see it, until business sees a way of making money out of the problem, we will continue to do what we do and not grab the problem and throw money and research at it to try and fix it !

[Rob. Smith]

Too many people ! Soylent Green or Logans Run seem to be the answers. Just don't get old !

[Chris L]

Has anyone heard of a bloke called Dr David Evans ?. He addressed a gathering in Perth on 23rd March. He was the lead climate specialist for 7 years employed by the government. He was on the carbon gravy train and got off because of the bull**** the government is trying to spin.
If i could paste it I would...........its a very interesting read.Its ALL ABOUT REVENUE........yours !

Furthermore, a tax designed by incompetant snapperheads is not the solution, and I agree with Modena, humans will probably stuff the planet one way or another.
Keith Richards said it best " you cant go sucking **** out of the ground and blowing it up in the air". That was before he climbed a palm tree and knocked himself out.

Cheers
Chris L

[OZCOBRA]

"Currently, China and India combined emit 20 times as much as Australia each day, and that factor is increasing rapidly," Dr Evans said. "If we reduce our daily emissions by 5 per cent then (China and India) will replace that amount in 216 seconds each day, and even faster by 2020.
Of more than 20 coal power plants believed to be under construction in China, 14 of the biggest have the capacity to emit more carbon annually than Australia intends to reduce.

Developing countries in Asia, excluding India and China, are predicted by the US Energy Information Administration to increase emissions by about 24 per cent.

Australia accounts for about 1.3 per cent of total global emissions....

[Merv and Sharon]

The 'politics of envy' is one of the strongest weapons in the politicians' armoury. When ever they are trying to avoid an issue, such as paying health benefits, maternity support, disability pensions, or in this case a tax on carbon emissions, they start a process of convincing those disadvantaged, that some other disadvantaged person or group is getting a bit more than they are, or something for nothing. Thus ensuring that the various groups turn on each other, are disunited and unable to mount any real pressure on the politicians ... It always works.

AS Dimis suggests, in good government, taxes=services. I have lived in both Sweden and Norway and they pay huge taxes, but have outstanding public services. However, I could not live under that regime as the cost of everything is so high. We are fortunate to live in a lower tax environment, even if we do whinge about the lack of some services.

[jcraigau]

I understand the need to pay tax. I HATE, yes HATE the fact that I can't avoid it. What is the point of working so god damn hard when the only reason is to hand over all that cash to those that can't be bothered.

And before you start - yes - some of them deserve a handout for being disabled, bad social situation, refugee, unemployed (except for those that are unemployable), etc etc. But seriously wealth distribution is just not on!

Ask the question, why is Gillard in the west so often. it's where the money is. Guess what she wants, out money. Town halls, swaying voters, it's all crap.

GDP = 48% WA
GST payments = $4.409B
GST returns = $3.390B
Over $1.3B returned to NSW and VIC above what they paid.

So we're already $1.1B in the hole. That means less public transport, less for homeless, drug rehab, public infrastructure blah blah...

Yes, we're lucky when it comes to resources, but thank god, imagine if we had to rely on the finance sector. Oz would look more like the US.

So I'd love to give every one a hug and hand over every thing, but I'm already on the highest tax bracket, I don't get a cent from the government, no first home buyers, no $900 free TV, no child rebate (we got no kids), no solar rebate, no insulation rebate, no nothing.

Don't feel sorry for us, we do alright, but don't lecture me on what we should do for the environment. There is no incentive to help.

I will do everything I can, within the letter of the law, to avoid paying a cent more that I have to...

Those with children may want to leave something better but I believe mother nature will take care of that. As far as I'm concerned, and I've heard it mentioned before, God helps those that help themselves...

[Kanga]

THis is a very interesting argument and one which is world wide, as can be seen from the posts.

The first thing that I would say is that Australians have never really been that 'into' politics however this current government and debate has caused a real stir. Aussie also don't say which side of politics that they are from and this can really cloud arguments.

I'm from the conserative side and thus I think that my view is reflected accordingly. Whether you believe the sicene or not I think that more money can be spent in better areas without taxing the middle class.

I always find it interesting that the debate went from global warming to climate change when we went back to getting really cold days as I remembered as a child, and the global warming debate no longer stood up.

I always laugh when I hear that 'its the hottest day since 1930, which meant that 70 years ago it was that hot!! So what has changed. I remember from school that plants use co2 don't they. So plant more trees

It's easy to be green and point the finger at the major business, but we have lost a lot of manufacturing in our country, we need to put our people and country first.

When we all drive prius' around, which cause more pollution to build let alone no one seems to know what to do with the old batteries. Will our green friends be happy then?

All I know that we have gone from a country in surplus which was used by the current government to get through a financal criss, we have some of the richest mines in the world, yet we have a government who is wasteful and full of ideas that dont work.

Lets look in our own back yard and build our future first and then worry about the world. That's what I can do for my children.

I'll get off the soap box.

steve.

And as far as cobras go we have had some of the hardest pollution standards that any kit car has in the world. THe amount of pollution my cobra spits out in the 3 to 5 thousands kays it does in a year is hard a drop in the ocean, give me a break

[Rog246]

Wonder what would happen if someone suggested a tax on the Methane & Manure output of Thorough Bred Horses & Cows?
can you imagine the outcry from some sections of business !??

[Philm]

I always laugh when I hear that 'its the hottest day since 1930, which meant that 70 years ago it was that hot!! So what has changed.

I think that point says it all, quick quick the sky is falling.

[lal Naja]

As I've stated. Too many people on the planet. And it'n not politically correct to talk about that and address it. There is no solution to over population so we choose other scapegoats. Most important in this issue is that the Environmentalists tell us that this is a man made problem and look to an ethereal solution.

BTW, about three billion people on our green earth do not have flushing tiolets. And still chop down trees and burn cowdung to make their meals. I would rather see these billions collected go to building sewer systems.

Our smart greens here have been able to legislate a ban on conventional light bulbs. These pigtail Fluorescent bulbs ALL contain Mercury and billions of them will be disposed of inappropiately. A couple of years ago the topic was that if one of these bulbs broke while switched on mercury vapor will coat everything in close proximity. Solution was to evacuate the area and call in a Haz-Mat team to clean up. What happened? I thought we already faced a Mecury problem in our water.

I see no end in sight to the BS.

Arthur

[Modena]

I think we can all agree that one day humans will have this planet completely b0rk3d. We just seem to differ in our opinions of how long it will be before that day comes.