Are we in danger

[lal Naja]

In the 70tees we had the distruction of the "Eco Sustem" We were all going to freeze and acid rain was going to denude the planet into sludge. The EPA sucked up billions of dollars to proove it's point and made it ever increasingly difficult with compliance regulations for producers to make anything. So we moved manufacturing off-shore. Now 14 million people are looking for work. The heads of "Non Profit Corporations" promoting a green planet still pay themselves millions in salary. Gore is just one of them at the top.

Follow the money trail. "Green" is the new religion of the current century. And will be followed blindly like most who follow a "Faith" and who will be content to buy into happy science and receive absolution for their tax-free carbon credit donation.

I hope that the 14 million looking for work are enjoying the fresh air. And I hope that the starving pains will not be too annoying.

I've travelled the world extensively and it is most obvious that there are too many people on the planet. This herd of 7 billion is just too big and is going to get bigger. Nature is fantastic as resolving these issues, hopefully the herd will be culled.

After all, In our 4 billion year history the entire planet surface has had a surface temperature of 2,000 degrees for thousands of years and has also seen the other extreme when it was an ice ball for hundreds of thousands of years and evolution worked out just fine. A little bit of carbon is a drop in the bucket and a convenient truth for some.

We will yet live to see that "Green" will become the next dirty word.

[cameron02]

Hi Lal Naja,

I agree re population. It seems that climate change may do the culling you speak of.

Some of the dangers they spoke of in the 70's were quite real I understand. I am not an expert on the topic but didnt acid rain kill the great lakes in Canada. Isnt that why they introduced lead free petrol. We also banned CFC's and that seems to have done the job. I dont think anybody offshore uses CFC's to my knowledge. These things can be done if governments refuse to purchase products from countries that do not comply.

I agree about follow the money trail but cant agree where it leads. The BRW richest list a whole bunch of minning executives but I have not seen any Greens. See link
BRW Rich List: Gina Rinehart on top, non-miners a drag | Crikey

[LoBelly]

I dont think the re-release of all that carbon will mean the end of life or mankind.

Just the end of our way of life now.

And some rather sharp adjustments as oil scarcity approaches and becomes acute

Its not like we don't know.



LoBelly

[Merv and Sharon]

This is an interesting commentary on the transitions we experience. We no longer dig asbestos, despite the loss of jobs. We no longer, in Australia, sell many guns despite the loss of jobs and 'sport'. We no longer shoot many wild animals because of their near extinction. However, during the last couple of decades someone seems to have made the decision that climate change is all about the money and the jobs. Mother nature has always coped, in some way before, but She has never had to deal with 7 billion people.

[lal Naja]

Originally Posted by LoBelly

I dont think the re-release of all that carbon will mean the end of life or mankind.

Just the end of our way of life now.

And some rather sharp adjustments as oil scarcity approaches and becomes acute

Its not like we don't know.



LoBelly

Easter Island is a great example of how too many people can really Flub things up. I've spent time there with one of the leading Anthropologists from the University of Chile. And yes, they finally started eating each other to survive. And their Happy science at the time was to build bloody big statues and then when that failed they invented the Bird-Man cult. Watch out humans, you will someday be forced to eat your children too.

After traveling the world in my younger days and visiting far corners of the Earth, yes it has corners and is still flat to some. The first thing I did when returning to civilization was to make sure I would never have offspring, Snip-snip went the conection to future life. That's how much trouble I saw ahead and that was in the 70tees.

[jmimac351]

"Green" is the new "Red". In America, public opinion has taken a turn against buying into the man-made global warming fraud. There is another fraud that will be taken care of Nov '12.

If an idea is better and can sustain itself from an economic standpoint it does not require incentives from the government. Ethanol gets big subsidies here in America because it cannot survive on its own. Yet, it is less efficient, uses more energy to produce, competes with the food supply, and actually pollutes more. "Green" and Ethanol are two things which make people feel better about themselves but actually have far different motives supporting them other than making sense. It's about the money and power and always will be. Nothing new.

[lal Naja]

Originally Posted by cameron02

Hi Lal Naja,

I agree re population. It seems that climate change may do the culling you speak of.

Some of the dangers they spoke of in the 70's were quite real I understand. I am not an expert on the topic but didnt acid rain kill the great lakes in Canada. Isnt that why they introduced lead free petrol. We also banned CFC's and that seems to have done the job. I dont think anybody offshore uses CFC's to my knowledge. These things can be done if governments refuse to purchase products from countries that do not comply.

I agree about follow the money trail but cant agree where it leads. The BRW richest list a whole bunch of minning executives but I have not seen any Greens. See link
BRW Rich List: Gina Rinehart on top, non-miners a drag | Crikey

The subject is far too complicated to have a "yes it is so answer." I had friends that worked for Fermi and Argon labs and funding is a job and a way of life. Without funding you join the 14 million out of work group. People have been studying and researching for 30 years without any real conclusive answers. Yes, nematodes will die if you spill oil on them. I've never been that lucky. Got stuck in having to produce stuff that humans need and had to do it at a profit. "Profit" another dirty word.

As is CFC's. Sadly Chloroflurocarbons are still being used in manufacturing. If these were totally banned the world would stop functioning. Many products using CFC's were redesigned where possible, but it's far from being totally gone. Stop it and 28 million will be looking for work.

The great lakes, I live a few blocks from one, has had some issues but nothing that I know of that is a serious problem. If you know more enlighten me please.

Sulfurdioxide is the main cause of acid rain and if you burn any fossil fuel including your cozy fireplace, you contribute to it. But this is what we humans do. We burn crap. After all, it is deep in our survival DNA. When we tamed fire we were able scare off the beasts that had us for dinner. Then we got to sit around it and keep warm. That was freedom to evolve. Imagine being able to shed the old way of life huddling in fear in the dark and in silence. And with that great opportunity man was able to take time to contemplate reason.

As far as Lead, it too is bad on the brain. Too much of it and you have drain bammage for sure

As for Gore. He's pretty comfortable in his 7million $ home on the ocean. Consuming fossil fuel to keep the lights on and buying carbon credits for forgiveness. What happened to the ocean rising 20' in the next few years?

Just remember! At the top they play with our lives.

Oh, and BTW. If you own a cat or a small dog each has the carbon footpring of a VW beetle. A large dog is equivalent to a SUV. Here in the USA dog owners are responsible for 95 million piles of poop every day and cat owners contribute to 65 million piles of it. Most of this crap is disposed of inappropriately. And at least 50% of these owners claim they are Green.

[HSVREDSLED]

Imagine if we were around a few thousand lifetimes ago and we were heading towards an ice age? What propaganda would the respective govts sprout?

Australia...wake up!!! This is nonsense. ANY SUPPORTER OF A CO2 TAX...PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I beg you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What will be the effect on Global emmisions of imposing a Carbon Dioxide tax on Australia?

Please??????? Anybody???????????????? FFS?

[jcraigau]

Be careful what you wish for. If we stop all carbon in a million years there will be no diamonds and then my wife will really have something to complain about !!!

[Rog246]

Originally Posted by Merv and Sharon

Seriously though Lo Belly, it is excellent and should be compulsory watching in schools. Natural events such as volcanoes took 250 million years to produce the degree of change that 7 billion people are producing in 100 years. All jokes aside, if ever one doubted ... The real question is can we do anything and is it too late to reverse or even slow the process?

Anyway, thanks for sharing this.

Merv the REAL question/problem which NO one will broach is there are just too many people on the planet. I think we should draw up a list of those who have to be euthanased (or how ever you spell it !) 1st.
My vote is we go with the Pollies 1st, then the lawyers, then real estate agents, used car sales people, insurance sales people, then we start on the crims ! LOL

Somewhere on this post it was said that the boffins discovered the CO2 problem in 1820 ! I have to ask "did it occur to anyone that the horse population in 1820 was contributing to the co2 problem ? and what about the great herds of buffalo that used to roam in Nth America, as well as all the critters on the great African herds ?"
There is no denying that just by being here we contribute.
As I see it, until business sees a way of making money out of the problem, we will continue to do what we do and not grab the problem and throw money and research at it to try and fix it !

[Rob. Smith]

Too many people ! Soylent Green or Logans Run seem to be the answers. Just don't get old !

[lal Naja]

Originally Posted by HSVREDSLED

Imagine if we were around a few thousand lifetimes ago and we were heading towards an ice age? What propaganda would the respective govts sprout?

Australia...wake up!!! This is nonsense. ANY SUPPORTER OF A CO2 TAX...PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I beg you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What will be the effect on Global emmisions of imposing a Carbon Dioxide tax on Australia?

Please??????? Anybody???????????????? FFS?

And thank you humans for all the extra CO2. It has kept us warmer and most likely thwarted an ice age. We are now further away from the sun than we were thousands of years ago. And continue to drift further every day. Just the physics of that prooves that extra corbon has been good for earth. We have a lot more healthy trees too as a result of that. Without tha carbon perhaps we would now look like Easter Island with not a single tree standing on this green earth.

And imagine how much more fossel fuel we would have to burn keep warm in an ice age. So much that it would be like the begnning of the industrial revolution when we turned the sky black. Then again black sky, black snow & ice the planet will warm up again. See CARBON has been good for us.

[cameron02]

Cant remember who's cartoon it was but it showed a guy at a climate conference saying "but what if we make the world a better place for nothing"

Funny but it does seem to be what some people are saying.

So many people seem to be obsessed with avoiding tax. As if the politicians are putting it in their personal bank accounts. I have not travelled as some of you have but I am told that the countries with the best services and supposedly the nicest places to live also have the highest tax rates ie Norway, Sweeden etc. What am I not seeing?

[OZCOBRA]

Originally Posted by cameron02

Hi OzCobra, nope I cant explain it and did not know about it. Where did you see/hear about it?

FYI....
Carbon tax billions to help poor nations - The West Australian......

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by cameron02

So many people seem to be obsessed with avoiding tax. As if the politicians are putting it in their personal bank accounts.

1) I for one am happy to pay tax. The more I pay the better. It means I've earned more that year. The problem here in lies when they try to take a larger percentage from us, without logical reason. This leaves one with less incentive to work and undermines the entire system.

2) They certainly are banking it in their own accounts - you tell me what other job allows such great perks, and then pays such a pension at the end of it? Further, you still receive those perks & an almost endless pension even after you're sacked?! This is rewarding incompetence & mediocrity. When they cut those perks, then perhaps I'll change my tune. But don't insult me and try to sneak in a tax bc it's for my own good, when clearly it's bs.

Pls we are not that moronic, are we?

[cameron02]

Hi Dimis,
In answer to your question "tell me what other job allows such perks." The first ones thet come to mind and indeed dwarf the perks are directorships and executive positions of large companies.

As far as I am aware most Politicians work long hours for not a lot of pay especially when compared to what they can (and many later do) earn working for industry. But yes the perks are pretty good.

Hi OZ Cobra. Thanks for that. I had a read. Looks like it amounts to a bribe to get the poorer countries to do what we want. Not sure if I agree with it or not. Not exactly sure on what they are trying to achieve. One thing I'm pretty sure of. They wont be giving it and not expecting something in return.

[Merv and Sharon]

The 'politics of envy' is one of the strongest weapons in the politicians' armoury. When ever they are trying to avoid an issue, such as paying health benefits, maternity support, disability pensions, or in this case a tax on carbon emissions, they start a process of convincing those disadvantaged, that some other disadvantaged person or group is getting a bit more than they are, or something for nothing. Thus ensuring that the various groups turn on each other, are disunited and unable to mount any real pressure on the politicians ... It always works.

AS Dimis suggests, in good government, taxes=services. I have lived in both Sweden and Norway and they pay huge taxes, but have outstanding public services. However, I could not live under that regime as the cost of everything is so high. We are fortunate to live in a lower tax environment, even if we do whinge about the lack of some services.

[jcraigau]

I understand the need to pay tax. I HATE, yes HATE the fact that I can't avoid it. What is the point of working so god damn hard when the only reason is to hand over all that cash to those that can't be bothered.

And before you start - yes - some of them deserve a handout for being disabled, bad social situation, refugee, unemployed (except for those that are unemployable), etc etc. But seriously wealth distribution is just not on!

Ask the question, why is Gillard in the west so often. it's where the money is. Guess what she wants, out money. Town halls, swaying voters, it's all crap.

GDP = 48% WA
GST payments = $4.409B
GST returns = $3.390B
Over $1.3B returned to NSW and VIC above what they paid.

So we're already $1.1B in the hole. That means less public transport, less for homeless, drug rehab, public infrastructure blah blah...

Yes, we're lucky when it comes to resources, but thank god, imagine if we had to rely on the finance sector. Oz would look more like the US.

So I'd love to give every one a hug and hand over every thing, but I'm already on the highest tax bracket, I don't get a cent from the government, no first home buyers, no $900 free TV, no child rebate (we got no kids), no solar rebate, no insulation rebate, no nothing.

Don't feel sorry for us, we do alright, but don't lecture me on what we should do for the environment. There is no incentive to help.

I will do everything I can, within the letter of the law, to avoid paying a cent more that I have to...

Those with children may want to leave something better but I believe mother nature will take care of that. As far as I'm concerned, and I've heard it mentioned before, God helps those that help themselves...

[Kanga]

THis is a very interesting argument and one which is world wide, as can be seen from the posts.

The first thing that I would say is that Australians have never really been that 'into' politics however this current government and debate has caused a real stir. Aussie also don't say which side of politics that they are from and this can really cloud arguments.

I'm from the conserative side and thus I think that my view is reflected accordingly. Whether you believe the sicene or not I think that more money can be spent in better areas without taxing the middle class.

I always find it interesting that the debate went from global warming to climate change when we went back to getting really cold days as I remembered as a child, and the global warming debate no longer stood up.

I always laugh when I hear that 'its the hottest day since 1930, which meant that 70 years ago it was that hot!! So what has changed. I remember from school that plants use co2 don't they. So plant more trees

It's easy to be green and point the finger at the major business, but we have lost a lot of manufacturing in our country, we need to put our people and country first.

When we all drive prius' around, which cause more pollution to build let alone no one seems to know what to do with the old batteries. Will our green friends be happy then?

All I know that we have gone from a country in surplus which was used by the current government to get through a financal criss, we have some of the richest mines in the world, yet we have a government who is wasteful and full of ideas that dont work.

Lets look in our own back yard and build our future first and then worry about the world. That's what I can do for my children.

I'll get off the soap box.

steve.

And as far as cobras go we have had some of the hardest pollution standards that any kit car has in the world. THe amount of pollution my cobra spits out in the 3 to 5 thousands kays it does in a year is hard a drop in the ocean, give me a break

[Rog246]

Wonder what would happen if someone suggested a tax on the Methane & Manure output of Thorough Bred Horses & Cows?
can you imagine the outcry from some sections of business !??