Are we in danger

[HSVREDSLED]

Thanks for your detailled reply Lal Naja. My question sort of backfired as Chicago is probably one of the worst cities to compare electricity costs with Australia due to the extremes in weather. But your info is great. I asked the question because last year I asked some californians and they said there monthly bill was sub $90? I calculated that we pay probably double over here.

As for Chicaco...what a great place. We went to a Wedding there in July 2010 and boy was it hot! Over 100 most days. Then onto NYC and it was the hottest there on record.
But I loved the place. We stayed on Mich ave, did all the tourist things including a Cubs game. Went to Arlington Park Races, all the blues clubs. My mate lives on Nth Dearbourn. He sent me photos of the blizzard last Winter...Brrrrrrrrr!

[HSVREDSLED]

What the hell I had to put up some pics..

Cubs game. This shot taken from our seats. Cubs actually won!



You should have seen the people run when I started jumping up and down on this thing. Skydeck Chicago

[cameron02]

Hell la Naja,

I have read the article. Interesting. I think its a bit of a stretch to say 16 scientists. Some scientists, some engineers and some people successfull in other fields. I think only one of them is a climate scientist.

It is good to see diuscussion of the issues but it reminds me of tobacco when when I was a kid, a minority of medical people were saying smoking was no problem.

It still makes me laugh when they say follow the money. All the big money is with the energy providers and minning companies (ie Australia's richest person for example). Just like when all the money was with the tobacco companies.

When looking at issues like these I like to ask myself. Is my view on this subject in line with my self interest. If it is then I make sure I am extra critical with myself and double check my motives. With action on climate change its a tough one. For my liftime I will be worse off, however I have the satisfaction of knowing that I have done what I can to ensure my decendants have the best chance at a good life.


To quote an excellent cartoon "What if we're wrong and we make the world a better place for nothing?"

[HSVREDSLED]

The science is simply...not there.

Climate change is real. No question. But what has man done to affect climate? What did man do to bring on the ice age? Fart too much?

I laugh when I hear studies over the last year, or last 50 years saying this or that. The earth is estimated to be 4.5 Billion years old. So when we look at a sample of say...100 years, we are looking at a sample of less than one ten millionth of the total figures. Its like asking two people in Australia what there favourite colour is and if they both say 'pink', then we come to the conclusion that pink is EVERYONES favourite colour. Its the same sample ratio.

Even the Vostok Ice data is only 420,000, years old. This is a sample size of one in a million?

CO2 emmissions is said to cause global warming. We dont hear that term much any more though....because allegedly, we are not warming. What we now hear is 'climate change'. How convenient.

However, I do agree, that we should something to reduce crap we put in the air....just in case... But on a Global scale. Thats what Kyoto and the IPCC are all about. But what about the big hitters? China, India, US. We are a drop in the ocean in terms of CO2 emmisions and are introducing a insane tax, when none of the big hitters are?

So now we come to Julia. Her spruikings whilst a member of the socialist forum in her youth (spin off of the communist party) detailed her plan for a 'super tax' to level the classes in true socialist style. So with her green bedmates and loony independents she found her 'reasoning' for a 'super tax' all disquised as a C02 tax.

If we are sooooo worried about carbon dioxide emmissions, why do we sell coal by the billion of tonnes overseas. Isnt that a bit like Alcoholic anonymous giving away Beer coolers at every AA meeting?

Finally I think that 'man' is over estimating his ability to influence planet earth. Earth has been here long before us and probably long after mankind has gone.

A few months ago we had a plant/tree that got waaaaay out of control. I took to it with a chainsaw and cut EVERY branch leaf etc off it ready to rip outa the ground. I didnt do the final stage...now its back bigger than ever...

[Merv and Sharon]

We all have our views on this. Those of us who work in scientific communities hear about their research and the consolidated views of the large body of research, that they choose to quote, and the long term 'trend' data. You form an opinion depending, to some extent, on the initial orientation or vested interest that you have.

I tend to agree with Cameron on most of this, and also can see the folly of thinking in short time frames. At a personal level, I am deeply concerned about the increasing control of our media by the owners of big business and now the mining companies (Palmer/Rinehart) and how this whole issue is presented. I also think that 7 billion people on this planet with cars, stoves, factories and animals, might just have a bit of an effect on the contents of the atmosphere and give old 'mother nature' somewhat of a challenge.

However, whether you are a believer or not, cynicism is the best attitude. Be cynical of the scientific claims until you have spent some time in the journals and doing your own search, but also be cynical of some of the leading nay-sayers and question their motives as well.

[Rog246]

Originally Posted by Merv and Sharon

We all have our views on this. Those of us who work in scientific communities hear about their research and the consolidated views of the large body of research, that they choose to quote, and the long term 'trend' data. You form an opinion depending, to some extent, on the initial orientation or vested interest that you have.

I tend to agree with Cameron on most of this, and also can see the folly of thinking in short time frames. At a personal level, I am deeply concerned about the increasing control of our media by the owners of big business and now the mining companies (Palmer/Rinehart) and how this whole issue is presented. I also think that 7 billion people on this planet with cars, stoves, factories and animals, might just have a bit of an effect on the contents of the atmosphere and give old 'mother nature' somewhat of a challenge.

However, whether you are a believer or not, cynicism is the best attitude. Be cynical of the scientific claims until you have spent some time in the journals and doing your own search, but also be cynical of some of the leading nay-sayers and question their motives as well.

Well said young Mervyn, well said !

[HSVREDSLED]

"Motive" is probably the most important word in this whole debate.

What was AL Gores Motive?

What is Gillards Motive.

Blind Freddy can see, that the motive of an imposition of a CO2 tax on Australia, is NOT primarliy to reduce global emmissions.

[Maurice Butler]

Originally Posted by HSVREDSLED

"Motive" is probably the most important word in this whole debate.

What was AL Gores Motive?

What is Gillards Motive.

Blind Freddy can see, that the motive of an imposition of a CO2 tax on Australia, is NOT primarliy to reduce global emmissions.

Money - who's making the money - all very simple really

[cameron02]

I assume Gillards motive is to stay in government. Labour lost a lot of votes to the Greens.

When you say who's making the money. I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that The Carbon Tax is going into Gillards personal bank account?

Over population. Yes I agree that it is probably the major cause of the climate problem and many others. Are we willing to change our vote?
Stable Population Party of Australia - Home

[Rob. Smith]

Here's another slant... Nothing to do with carbon release have a read of this............Nuclear is not the answer - but not why you'd think – Blog – ABC Environment (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
We're all OK.....I think ? ? ?

[sambo]

The real problem is the expectation of growth - economy, housing, shares, population, standard of living, you name it. No point limiting what comes out the tailpipe if you're happy to build more cars. Or introducing a tax to supposedly fix the environment, meanwhile promoting urban sprawl. Something has to give eventually, its as simple as that. Just make sure you've got a seat when the music stops.

[cameron02]

Sambo,

I agree. I have come to believe that the over population of the planet is the root of all evil, or most of it.

[cameron02]

I finally found that cartoon.

Not sure of the author but it was published in USA Today

[cameron02]

Hi Rob,
I read the article. The argument as presented does not make a lot of sense to me. It assumes that "if we make more heat, the amount of heat radiated into space will not increase". That may be right but no evidence is provided or refered to. Interesting idea though.

[Maurice Butler]

I think gobal warming is an inconvenience compared to food problems with GMO
Four ways Monsanto threatens the environment and public health

[Rob. Smith]

Originally Posted by cameron02

Hi Rob,
I read the article. The argument as presented does not make a lot of sense to me. It assumes that "if we make more heat, the amount of heat radiated into space will not increase". That may be right but no evidence is provided or refered to. Interesting idea though.

Yeah I thought it was a load of talking in circles....that's why I said..I think we're OK ! I like to look at all this with a bit of humour. I myself have seen a fair bit of the darkness in life so it's all sunshine for me now ! ha ha ha. I work in a power station as well

[HSVREDSLED]

Originally Posted by cameron02

I finally found that cartoon.

Not sure of the author but it was published in USA Today

Absolutely agree.

Get China, India the US and the rest of the big hitters who make up 98.7% of the Carbon emmission to the table and I will gladly support.

Not a problem at all....

[lal Naja]

As intelligent as we are as a species and we are really amazing at what we have been able to accomplish. But the reality that we are not willing to face is really over population. It is not politically correct to state that we really are the cause. I've traveled the world and have seen the mess we make, shameful. But no one will seriously address it. We instead choose to cure the ethereal, an impossible task.

I live in a city of about 8 million and a large percentage of these folk are just littering pigs. It is disgusting. Yet our government agencies levy taxes and license fees all in the name of Global Warming, now Climate Change. I would be much happier if some of these extorted fees were from fines for littering and we were spent the Global Warming/carbon taxes taxes on educating the masses to stop throwing trash in our streets. We have MILLIONS of pieces of chewing gum on our side walks, yes millions.

And we have dog owners that leave their crap everywhere. In the US we create 95 million piles of dog crap, that is if your dog craps once a day. and 65 million piles of cat poop. All of which are not disposed of in a ecological way.

So for intelligent beings we continue to chase pies in the sky and don't even notice the dog crap oozing between out toes.

Something is seriously deficient in our making.

[lal Naja]

As intelligent as we are as a species and we are really amazing at what we have been able to accomplish. But the reality that we are not willing to face is really over population. It is not politically correct to state that we really are the cause. I've traveled the world and have seen the mess we make, shameful. But no one will seriously address it. We instead choose to cure the ethereal, an impossible task.

I live in a city of about 8 million and a large percentage of these folk are just littering pigs. It is disgusting. Yet our government agencies levy taxes and license fees all in the name of Global Warming, now Climate Change. I would be much happier if some of these extorted fees get collected from fines for littering and we were spent the Global Warming/carbon taxes on educating the masses to stop throwing trash in our streets. We have MILLIONS of pieces of chewing gum on our side walks, yes millions.

And we have dog owners that leave their crap everywhere. In the US we create 95 million piles of dog crap, that is if your dog craps once a day. And 65 million piles of cat poop. All of which are not disposed of in a non ecological way.

So for intelligent beings we continue to chase pies in the sky and don't even notice the dog crap oozing between out toes.

Something is seriously deficient in our making and sense of reality.

[Rob. Smith]

The answer is Soyent Green. Eat the oldies !