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  #281 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2021, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by patrickt View Post
Dang, I'm rooting for you. A 77 year old man that wants to solve a decades old family mystery before he dies. I get it; we all get it. But you're marching uphill against turf, control, transparency and ego (and I'm not pointing a finger at anyone in particular). The majority of us on this forum are all men in their 60's and 70's, so we do indeed get it. I think we're all rooting for you. Most of us, that is.
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  #282 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2021, 01:51 PM
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Paul started saying he owned the car last weekend of July. Nobody said otherwise. Bank shows note paid off shortly after. I believe Paulís cash paid the note.
After accident #37 goes to SAI because no way it goes to Paulís house to be a tragic reminder of what happened sitting in the driveway.
If Paul owned the car Curry the lawyer would have to file in probate for legal title.
He probably did. Then sold it in the lien auction to Ann.
If Paul owned CSX2049 and Curry didnít use probate its still Paulís car.
Or his heirs.
Can you check probate records? Everything Paul legally owned would be listed.
He was kinda young to have will.
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  #283 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2021, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by sunman View Post
Paul started saying he owned the car last weekend of July. Nobody said otherwise. Bank shows note paid off shortly after. I believe Paul’s cash paid the note.
After accident #37 goes to SAI because no way it goes to Paul’s house to be a tragic reminder of what happened sitting in the driveway.
If Paul owned the car Curry the lawyer would have to file in probate for legal title.
He probably did. Then sold it in the lien auction to Ann.
If Paul owned CSX2049 and Curry didn’t use probate its still Paul’s car.
Or his heirs.
Can you check probate records? Everything Paul legally owned would be listed.
He was kinda young to have will.
All good possibilities. Yet the investigation performed back in 1980 by USC Cowboy's expert, Lance Coren, who was at the time an insurance recovery expert with access to the CA and other state's DMV - including records that were't computerized, via a "hand-search" - turned up only Ann Abiden and Lanse Haselrig as listed owners. Coren further stated in his letter (see my post, #55) that Abiden is shown as the original owner, having purchased 2049 in 1963 and sold it in 1967. Some of his dates and details are off, but he apparently located the same printed DMV records I have presented previously.
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  #284 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2021, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by sunman View Post
Paul started saying he owned the car last weekend of July. Nobody said otherwise. Bank shows note paid off shortly after. I believe Paulís cash paid the note.
After accident #37 goes to SAI because no way it goes to Paulís house to be a tragic reminder of what happened sitting in the driveway.
If Paul owned the car Curry the lawyer would have to file in probate for legal title.
He probably did. Then sold it in the lien auction to Ann.
If Paul owned CSX2049 and Curry didnít use probate its still Paulís car.
Or his heirs.
Can you check probate records? Everything Paul legally owned would be listed.
He was kinda young to have will.
More speculation follows:

Interesting as Michael said that his mom was unconsolable. Would she really want to see the car in her driveway or garage again to remind her of what happened? Michael said that Shelby never contacted his family about the lien. Michael was 19, so I might assume that during the day he might of had a job or went to college, so is it possible that Michael is not around the house at times that people from Shelby called Paul's mom or when she received letters from Shelby about the car? Maybe Michael's mom was incapable of talking on the phone about the car or discarded the letters about the car because she was so distraught of the idea of getting the car back that she could not respond. Is it possible that she could not even talk to her children about the people at Shelby who are bugging her about taking back the car?

Michael, you say that your mom moved back to Illinois after several months. Is it possible that she moved prior to April 1964? If so, that would have made it harder for the Shelby people to contact her.

In any case I would think that any investigation into the car by Shelby would be a day or two effort, certainly not needing to hold onto the car for several months. Perhaps the investigation was just taking some pictures and sending them to AC or Ford. Or maybe getting someone like Phil Remington to look over the wreck? I don't see why your family would expect Shelby to hold on to the wreck from November through April. It seems like if your family wanted the wreck back they should have been asking for it back less than a week after it got to the shop.

You also say that a Shelby employee who knew your family brought you what turned out to be not your car's remnants, so even if the Shelby people had somehow lost the contact information for your family when the wreck arrived and somehow also lost the invoices for recent competition improvements on the car with Paul's contact information, there is at least that employee who knew your family who could help with your family's contact information when the company controller keeps on complaining for months about the apparently abandoned wreck taking up shop space.

Any reasonable business that has a car come into their shop knows who the car belongs to and how to contact them. So I don't understand how Shelby American could fail to contact your mom about the car. More likely an unconsolable widow just never wanted to see the car again regardless of whether her children wanted the wreck back.

I guess another interesting point has to do with probate and settling of the estate. If the car was jointly owned by Paul and his widow, wouldn't the wreck's ownership have automatically gone to the widow as opposed needing to be settled as part of the estate? And in theory if the widow now owning the wreck, abandoned the wreck at the Shelby shop, could Shelby dispose of the wreck with a mechanics lien without it involving probate?
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  #285 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2021, 04:55 PM
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Another thought: Is Kenneth J Grindley still alive? If so does anyone know how to get a hold of him? Maybe Kenneth might have some recollection of the major headache he had with a wrecked competition Cobra sitting around the shop for over 4 months that he wanted to get rid of with a mechanics lien.
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  #286 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2021, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Nedsel View Post
All good possibilities. Yet the investigation performed back in 1980 by USC Cowboy's expert, Lance Coren, who was at the time an insurance recovery expert with access to the CA and other state's DMV - including records that were't computerized, via a "hand-search" - turned up only Ann Abiden and Lanse Haselrig as listed owners. Coren further stated in his letter (see my post, #55) that Abiden is shown as the original owner, having purchased 2049 in 1963 and sold it in 1967. Some of his dates and details are off, but he apparently located the same printed DMV records I have presented previously.
Did Lance Coren provide any copies of documents from his "hand-search" of government records that would indicate that Ann Abiden was the original owner or how she purchased the car from Hi Performance Motors on 11/2/62 which is prior to the date that the car was billed to Shelby American, 11/13/62 (from the 4th edition registry).

From reading 4th edition of the registry, it seems that Harry S and Peter Rothschild were the original owners. So at the time of the 4th editition registry you did not believe that Ann was the original owner as stated in Lance Coren's letter.
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  #287 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2021, 05:39 PM
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Good point about probate the title was in both names and maybe in the shuffle contact was lost.
Using the lawyer shows good faith in resolving the issue legally.
The 1980 search is sketchy
The chassis that Cowboy has is a missing AC and is possibly another mans treasure
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Last edited by sunman; 11-17-2021 at 05:58 PM..
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  #288 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2021, 05:54 PM
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... deleted a bunch of stuff here ...
He was kinda young to have will.
Actually considering that driving a race car in the early 1960s was considered a dangerous thing to do and having a college age step son, it probably would have made sense to have a will.
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  #289 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2021, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Nedsel View Post
All good possibilities. Yet the investigation performed back in 1980 by USC Cowboy's expert, Lance Coren, who was at the time an insurance recovery expert with access to the CA and other state's DMV - including records that were't computerized, via a "hand-search" - turned up only Ann Abiden and Lanse Haselrig as listed owners. Coren further stated in his letter (see my post, #55) that Abiden is shown as the original owner, having purchased 2049 in 1963 and sold it in 1967. Some of his dates and details are off, but he apparently located the same printed DMV records I have presented previously.
Lance Coren was not my expert, he was who my expert interviewed and investigated.
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  #290 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2021, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by 1ntCobra View Post
Did Lance Coren provide any copies of documents from his "hand-search" of government records that would indicate that Ann Abiden was the original owner or how she purchased the car from Hi Performance Motors on 11/2/62 which is prior to the date that the car was billed to Shelby American, 11/13/62 (from the 4th edition registry).

From reading 4th edition of the registry, it seems that Harry S and Peter Rothschild were the original owners. So at the time of the 4th editition registry you did not believe that Ann was the original owner as stated in Lance Coren's letter.
The Rothschild's did not own the Cobra, they only sponsored it, I have check stub showing payment as sponsor.
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  #291 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2021, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by 1ntCobra View Post
Did Lance Coren provide any copies of documents from his "hand-search" of government records that would indicate that Ann Abiden was the original owner or how she purchased the car from Hi Performance Motors on 11/2/62 which is prior to the date that the car was billed to Shelby American, 11/13/62 (from the 4th edition registry).

From reading 4th edition of the registry, it seems that Harry S and Peter Rothschild were the original owners. So at the time of the 4th editition registry you did not believe that Ann was the original owner as stated in Lance Coren's letter.
I have provided copies of Ann Abiden's registration renewal for CSX 2049 from 1964. They reflect the same data Coren discovered in the DMV files. And post #44 discusses the how's and why's of the odd data that was submitted for the 2049 footnote in the 4th edition of the Registry. We have since corrected the misinformation.
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  #292 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2021, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
Lance Coren was not my expert, he was who my expert interviewed and investigated.
And the person who concluded that his "many years investigation is finally came to a 100% proven factual conclusion" that Haselrig could not possibly have ever owned 2049, in as much as Coren had been to Haselrig's shop over the past 30 years and had never seen even one part from an original Cobra. Let's ignore the fact that the car was stolen over 35 years ago and was kept at another location. Clearly, that is 100% proof!
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  #293 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2021, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Nedsel View Post
I have provided copies of Ann Abiden's registration renewal for CSX 2049 from 1964. They reflect the same data Coren discovered in the DMV files. And post #44 discusses the how's and why's of the odd data that was submitted for the 2049 footnote in the 4th edition of the Registry. We have since corrected the misinformation.
Perhaps I will ask for the latest version of the Cobra registries for Christmas to get clarificaiton on this.

It appears that document is Ann's 1964 registration application that was not sent it. However I am not sure that it has to be a 1964 registration renewal. Could it not be her initial 1964 registration application that she received after purchasing the wreck from a mechanics lien sale? Assuming she purchased the wreck after on or after April 1964, wouldn't she get a title and the application to register the car for 1964?

There would be no need to send in the 1964 registration application in the case that she purchased the car in 1963 as new (registration renewal application) nor purchased the wreck in 1964 from a mechanics lien sale (initial registration application). Why register a wreck that cannot be driven.

So unless that document indicates somewhere on it that it is a registration renewal for 1964, I don't think the document proves that Ann owned the car in 1963 or that she was the original owner.

That is why I asked if Lance Coren provided a copy of his "hand-search" document that indicated that Ann was the original owner. You certainly expect Michael to be able to provide a document that would indicate that Paul owned the car in 1963. It seems to me that the 1964 registration application only indicates that Ann owned the wreck in 1964 and does not prove that she owned it earlier than 1964.

Last edited by 1ntCobra; 11-17-2021 at 07:49 PM.. Reason: less words
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  #294 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2021, 08:01 PM
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That is why I asked if Lance Coren provided a copy of his "hand-search" document that indicated that Ann was the original owner. You certainly expect Michael to be able to provide a document that would indicate that Paul owned the car in 1963. It seems to me that the 1964 registration application only indicates that Ann owned the wreck in 1964 and does not prove that she owned it earlier than 1964.
Lance Coren was never my expert; I said USC Cowboy's private investigator was using him as his. He provided no proof, but later paperwork did corroborate his discovery of Ann Abiden and Lanse Hasselrig as owners of 2049. There was no evidence of a Paul Cunningham in the DMV files.
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  #295 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2021, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Nedsel View Post
Lance Coren was never my expert; I said USC Cowboy's private investigator was using him as his. He provided no proof, but later paperwork did corroborate his discovery of Ann Abiden and Lanse Hasselrig as owners of 2049. There was no evidence of a Paul Cunningham in the DMV files.
Ok, so there is no evidence that Paul owned the car. Evidence shows that Ann is the earliest know owner, but not necessarily the original owner.

Consider this, Shelby American is pursuing a mechanics lien to dispose of the wreck. Here are some possibilities:

1) Ann is the owner as of August 1963. She has a registration renewal application for 1964 that she does not use. Ann finally comes around to Shelby to pick up her car and Shelby American stops pursuing the mechanics lien. Ann can sell the wreck to Lanse.

2) Ann is the owner as of August 1963. She has a registration renewal application for 1964 that she does not use. Shelby American goes through with the mechanics lien and gets the title for the wreck. Shelby American takes the wreck to the junk yard and get a few bucks. After leaving the car abandoned for months, Ann finally shows up at Shelby American and she is told her car has been sold to the junk yard. Ann goes to the junkyard and repurchases CSX2049 from the junkyard. Ann regains the title as well as a second application to register the wreck for 1964. In this case Ann has 2 1964 applications to register the wreck and uses neither of them. Ann can sell the car to Lanse.

3) Ann is the owner as of August 1963. She has a registration renewal application for 1964 that she does not use. Shelby American goes through with the mechanics lien and gets the title for the wreck. Shelby American takes the wreck to the junk yard and gets a few bucks. Ann never shows up to Shelby American or the junk yard. Ann no longer has the wreck or a valid title to the wreck. Well she still has a a registration renewal application for 1964. In this scenario it is impossible for Ann to sell the wreck to Lanse.

4) Someone other than Ann is the owner as of August 1963, maybe Paul, who knows. Shelby American goes through with the mechanics lien and gets the title for the wreck. Shelby American sells the car either directly to Ann or Ann purchases the wreck from the junkyard that Shelby American sold the wreck to. Ann gets the title to the wreck as well as an initial registration application for 1964 that she never uses. Ann can sell the car to Lanse.

Scenario 4 allows for someone other than Ann to be the owner of the car from August 1963 up until the mechanics lien came through. So it is possible that Paul Cunningham was the owner of the car at the time he was racing it, but there are currently no known documents to support this.

Last edited by 1ntCobra; 11-18-2021 at 05:43 AM..
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  #296 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2021, 06:36 AM
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There was no evidence of a Paul Cunningham in the DMV files.
Which is why, I would wager, the notice of lien from Shelby was never seen by his distraught mother. My speculation (and this topic is now all about speculation) is that while Cunningham may have driven the car, he was given access to it perhaps as liberal as having his own keys, but never really owned it.
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Old 11-18-2021, 07:43 AM
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I remain open to any and all possibilities, especially since as the Registrar, it is the facts that matter. (I.E., please note my ego has no say in this.) One must remember that in order to put together a factual history of anything, one has to rely on things that are documented by a paper trail, photos, or other hard evidence. Speculation and hope simply don't get the job done. So I will look forward to any fresh details whenever they might be found and presented. At that point the Registry entry for 2049 will be updated accordingly.
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Old 11-18-2021, 07:54 AM
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Interesting story, which I've been reading since it was started. I sympathize with Paul's son, but I think too many years have passed to undo what has taken place legally. I do think Paul bought the car, but without legal paper, cannot be proven. Maybe he never finished paying, but more likely he said nothing to anyone and left the paperwork where it was never found. After he died, this wrecked chassis/car was pretty-much worthless except for the engine and trans. No one cared enough to file or chase the required paperwork after it was wrecked. Shelby American probably just scrapped the remains and that was that. No one ever would have thought at that time these cars would appreciate as they have. Only later did someone think to find the old title, which was probably forgotten. A few years later, someone had the idea to use this title to reconstruct a 'phantom' Cobra.
All speculation here, but I think the remains in their entirety were scrapped (less engine & trans) and everyone got on with their business. That left Paul's son hanging on...
CSX 2049 is surely a fake and should not be among the true Cobras, but that's for guys like Ned to determine. These are my thoughts and opinions, and are not to be taken as fact.
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Old 11-18-2021, 08:44 AM
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does any of the registrars of SAAC or ACOC have inspected David Harts "2049", if there are original 2049 parts in it?

It occurs to me that David Hart own the parts
Hasselrig the title
and Michael unfortunately nothing...

just another speculative conclusion....
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Old 11-18-2021, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedsel View Post
Lance Coren was never my expert; I said USC Cowboy's private investigator was using him as his. He provided no proof, but later paperwork did corroborate his discovery of Ann Abiden and Lanse Hasselrig as owners of 2049. There was no evidence of a Paul Cunningham in the DMV files.
Paul purchased a race car, not a street vehicle. IMO, it did not require a DMV registration as the car was never operated on the street. Also, note that I previously declared that Lance Coren was never an expert for me, I had a very different expert assisting me, one that is not named in any of these discussion threads.
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