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Kirkham Motorsports

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  #121 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2021, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
As keeper of the real Cobra keys, why don't you explain exactly what part(s) was used to support that chassis? Perhaps a bullet rear vision mirror!

I , for one , would like to know what was used in the reconstruction.
Yes, I can imagine you would enjoy knowing that. But since I am not the owner of the car, it isn't for me to release details about it, especially since it is my understanding there could be further litigation ahead involving this VIN and the right to proper legal ownership thereof.
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  #122 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2021, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedsel View Post
Yes, I can imagine you would enjoy knowing that. But since I am not the owner of the car, it isn't for me to release details about it, especially since it is my understanding there could be further litigation ahead involving this VIN and the right to proper legal ownership thereof.
It does appear that someone is on a fishing expedition and shopping for answers to help make a case.
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  #123 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2021, 12:10 PM
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It does appear that someone is on a fishing expedition and shopping for answers to help make a case.
Not a fishing expedition. Since the prime purpose of SAAC is to protecting the integrity of the history and ownership of classic cobras, it seems to me that the information known to be fact by SAAC mgmt should be made available to all with an interest in the truth.

N'est pas?
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  #124 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2021, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
Since the prime purpose of SAAC is to protecting the integrity of the history and ownership of classic cobras, it seems to me that the information known to be fact by SAAC mgmt should be made available to all with an interest in the truth.
No, they hold back "secret stuff." The secret stuff is used to figure out who is telling the truth and who is not. If they gave away all the secret stuff then it wouldn't be secret any more and they wouldn't be able to figure out who was telling the truth and who wasn't because dishonest people would just change their story to fit the secret stuff that is no longer secret any more.
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  #125 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2021, 02:42 PM
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Reasonable to say that CSX2049 lives only in pictures at this juncture. no?
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  #126 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2021, 03:29 PM
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In November Robert D Walkers new book comes out.
Shelby Cobra The Definitive Chassis By Chassis History Of The Mark I
Chapter 10 has CSX2049
46,47,48 and 52 are well known 52 is a survivor owned by the buyers son
How does the chassis in post 33 compare to them?
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  #127 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2021, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunman View Post
In November Robert D Walkers new book comes out.
Shelby Cobra The Definitive Chassis By Chassis History Of The Mark I
Chapter 10 has CSX2049
46,47,48 and 52 are well known 52 is a survivor owned by the buyers son
How does the chassis in post 33 compare to them?

I don't understand your question, please elaborate.
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  #128 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2021, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunman View Post
In November Robert D Walkers new book comes out.
Shelby Cobra The Definitive Chassis By Chassis History Of The Mark I
Chapter 10 has CSX2049
46,47,48 and 52 are well known 52 is a survivor owned by the buyers son
How does the chassis in post 33 compare to them?
If you are referring to the photos of a sectioned frame, this is a picture of what remains of the original CSX2049 chassis after it was cannibalized and parted out.
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  #129 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2021, 04:37 PM
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I disagree. Post #33 shows a junk AC Ace chassis.
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  #130 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2021, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
Not a fishing expedition. Since the prime purpose of SAAC is to protecting the integrity of the history and ownership of classic cobras, it seems to me that the information known to be fact by SAAC mgmt should be made available to all with an interest in the truth.

N'est pas?
Has the Cowboy ever heard of the SAAC Cobra Registry? We have been publishing it since 1976.
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  #131 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2021, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Nedsel View Post
Has the Cowboy ever heard of the SAAC Cobra Registry? We have been publishing it since 1976.
Yes! I have a substantial Cobra library and definitely the SAAC Registry, as well as the leaf spring Early Cobras, Mark I and II.

I am not an idiot.
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  #132 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2021, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
Yes! I have a substantial Cobra library and definitely the SAAC Registry, as well as the leaf spring Early Cobras, Mark I and II.

I am not an idiot.
I have to ask once again, why are you trying to pass off a junk "AC Ace" chassis as CSX2049 if not for the potential financial gain it may be to you, your family, or someone you may be associated with in this thread?

There are subtle differences, and the SAAC Registrar has already confirmed that the picture you posted, which is supposed to be a scavengerized CSX2049, is not what it appears to be?

Again, I have no financial gain or loss here, just asking questions as a neutral, 3rd party observer.

Regardless, as always, here is wishing you well.

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  #133 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2021, 07:05 PM
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Michael,

You have an interesting story. You claim that your father owned the car, but you have no paperwork to prove it. It seems that Ann Abiden had a title for CSX 2049 and sold the crashed remains of CSX 2049. You have a frame that some mysterious Shelby employee returned to your familiy after being cut up with no part remaining with a serial number on it. You don't know who it was that returned the cut up frame to your family. Presumably the returned frame was returned to you shortly after the accident, and not kept at Shelby for years before being returned. On the other hand there are pictures dated years later that show a crashed but complete CSX 2049 that has not been cut up yet. There are also accounts of a partial frame from CSX 2049 showing up in the late 70s with an improper title used to create the car in Europe.

It seems that the crashed CSX 2049 was sold mostly intact years after you received the cut up frame. And at some later point the damaged CSX 2049 was cut up and the partial frame "stolen" from storage. It seems that there is photographic evidence that CSX 2049 still existed in the 60s and 70s, but you have a cut up frame that predates the pictures. Could it be that the mysterious Shelby employee that returned the cut up frame to your family brought you something that he thought was the remains of your family's car, but was the remains of something else? That might explain what you have, but it does not mean that your frame is from your father's car, unless of course your father's car was not CSX 2049 as you suggested earlier.

I am not sure how you are going to prove your father owned the car unless you somehow produce a title for your father's car that would invalidate the title obtained by the purchase from Ann Abiden. Even if you could come up with the paperwork, it seems unlikely that you could prove that the frame you have is from CSX 2049 when photographs of CSX 2049 exist from after you recieved the returned frame.

Based on what has been discussed here so far I am not sure how you would be able to prove your father once owned the car or that the frame you have is part of that car.
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  #134 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2021, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by mrmustang View Post
I have to ask once again, why are you trying to pass off a junk "AC Ace" chassis as CSX2049 if not for the potential financial gain it may be to you, your family, or someone you may be associated with in this thread?

There are subtle differences, and the SAAC Registrar has already confirmed that the picture you posted, which is supposed to be a scavengerized CSX2049, is not what it appears to be?

Again, I have no financial gain or loss here, just asking questions as a neutral, 3rd party observer.

Regardless, as always, here is wishing you well.

Bill S.
Thank you for your observations, I am also confused, having and being involved with physical pieces, and only my direct memories as I was involved with the Cobra. The car as I was exposed to it was not streetable, no registration, no license, no knowledge of a person named Ann Abiden or her son, I've never met them at any race tech inspections, races, after race activities. Isn't it strange that someone who bought a state of the art race car and hired a driver (Paul Cunningham) to race that car and who was never recognized in the race programs as owner or sponsor.

As I said before, the Cobra may have been one of the early 260ci Mark I's which was used as a publicity car and then later competition prepared by SAI and fitted with a 289ci engine when Shelby needed to have more privately campaigned cars so he could obtain factory status. I have pictures of an early car used for publicity and has all the unique characteristics of our Cobra, slabside, red, black and silver competition stripe. I've looked at tens of thousands of Cobra photos and have never seen on with five rows of louvres at the rear of the hood and no intake scoop.

My goal is to make sure the records are correct and that no one usurps Paul's race history and ownership.

As for the so-called paper trail with Ann Abidin, many years ago I had a Cobra expert that investigated it and concluded that the paperwork was created to bolster a bogus cobra.

This whole CSX2049 Cobra history is so twisted, people with information and pictures are few and far between and many are very tight lipped in talking about it. Something is wrong and I hope to unravel the history before I too am dead.
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  #135 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2021, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
Thank you for your observations, I am also confused, having and being involved with physical pieces, and only my direct memories as I was involved with the Cobra. The car as I was exposed to it was not streetable, no registration, no license, no knowledge of a person named Ann Abiden or her son, I've never met them at any race tech inspections, races, after race activities. Isn't it strange that someone who bought a state of the art race car and hired a driver (Paul Cunningham) to race that car and who was never recognized in the race programs as owner or sponsor.

As I said before, the Cobra may have been one of the early 260ci Mark I's which was used as a publicity car and then later competition prepared by SAI and fitted with a 289ci engine when Shelby needed to have more privately campaigned cars so he could obtain factory status. I have pictures of an early car used for publicity and has all the unique characteristics of our Cobra, slabside, red, black and silver competition stripe. I've looked at tens of thousands of Cobra photos and have never seen on with five rows of louvres at the rear of the hood and no intake scoop.

My goal is to make sure the records are correct and that no one usurps Paul's race history and ownership.

As for the so-called paper trail with Ann Abidin, many years ago I had a Cobra expert that investigated it and concluded that the paperwork was created to bolster a bogus cobra.

This whole CSX2049 Cobra history is so twisted, people with information and pictures are few and far between and many are very tight lipped in talking about it. Something is wrong and I hope to unravel the history before I too am dead.
What about the pictures from post #38? Link to Post 38

Is that your father's crashed car? The hood in the passenger compartment appears to have louvres and the colors seem to match. The prints are dated March 67, but I suppose the prints could have been made in 67 from negatives taken earlier, perhaps as early as just after the crash.

Also consider the pictures from post #5 Link to Post 5

The section below the door opening has remnants of red paint with the bottom of white (or silver) number circles. It seems like that could match with the crashed Cobra pictures. Do we know the approximate date for those pictures of the partial frame of CSX 2049?
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  #136 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2021, 09:14 PM
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So what about these pictures?

From here: https://dhgracing.nl/cars/ford-shelby-cobra/

Are these of your father's car?









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  #137 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2021, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ntCobra View Post
So what about these pictures?

From here: https://dhgracing.nl/cars/ford-shelby-cobra/

Are these of your father's car?
The vintage photos from that site may well be CSX2049, but I can assure you with 100% certainty that the two modern-day pictures listed on their "cars" page as "Shelby Cobra 289 Kirkham" and "Shelby Cobra 289 Chassis number CSX2049" are the exact same car.
Compare the two pictures below. The red fender stripe has been photoshopped in and the pattern of the rust stains and marks on the undercar exhaust pipes as well as various other marks and reflections on the body are identical.
Not sure what this implies though.





Apologies for the large format linked pics
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  #138 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2021, 02:51 AM
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The vintage photos from that site may well be CSX2049, but I can assure you with 100% certainty that the two modern-day pictures listed on their "cars" page as "Shelby Cobra 289 Kirkham" and "Shelby Cobra 289 Chassis number CSX2049" are the exact same car.
Compare the two pictures below. The red fender stripe has been photoshopped in and the pattern of the rust stains and marks on the undercar exhaust pipes as well as various other marks and reflections on the body are identical.
Not sure what this implies though.

Apologies for the large format linked pics
Maybe the pictures are photoshopped but I have seen both cars in reality several times and I can assure you that these are two different Cobras, the Kirkham was sometimes announced formerly as 2174

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  #139 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2021, 06:14 AM
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Probably seen by many on this thread already, I came across this article recently about the David Hart car CSX 2049. It does give some details of the cars history, albeit a bit vague and written with a favorable slant towards the current owner.
https://www.classiccarsmagazine.nl/r...-shelby-cobra/
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  #140 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2021, 06:51 AM
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The black and white vintage photos above definitely show the genuine CSX 2049 prior to its fatal crash late in '63. The color photos show the car that resulted after several people bought the stolen remains of the real car and ultimately "reconstructed" it. It is thought that no original parts from the genuine car remain on the new blue one.
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