New alloy 427 FE build.. call me crazy

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by 2bars

I do know it will have a hydraulic roller cam.

This forum is awesome!

Originally Posted by patrickt

Or my old school 245/245 LSA 114 solid flat tappet. It was wonderful when it came out in 1963, and it still is today.

What, no "1963" for you?

Thank goodness you don't listen to everyone here. Otherwise, we would all be driving "sandy" beige Cobras with ancient camshafts in faux FE's.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

What, no "1963" for you?

Thank goodness you don't listen to everyone here. Otherwise, we would all be driving "sandy" beige Cobras with ancient camshafts in faux FE's.

Yep, but did you know that a Roush 511RFE with a TKO on it costs north of $50k now? I was just perusing the VMS configuration page and stumbled on that. Vintage Motorsports - Backdraft Racing Roadster Online Quote

[patrickt]

... hmmmm, or order it from Summit for $28k. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/roi-511rfe That's interesting.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

... hmmmm, or order it from Summit for $28k. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/roi-511rfe That's interesting.

Without getting to deep in the weeds here, I'm going to make an assumption that VMS's cost includes installation, profit and some cushion in the likelihood that the Roush engine blows up and Roush takes 1-2 years to send the claim through their Warranty Dept. only to get the owner reimbursed about 1/4 of the original cost.

[2bars]

uh, no, While I can respect "old school" I want the mix of the new. Kind of like my Jeep. a 1947 and as much as I like some of the 47 parts and design I took advantage of some new. lockers and such.
I guess that's what makes my car mine, right?

Now if it was an original "real" Cobra.........????

[2bars]

Well the block came in and looks good so far. Pieces have shown up and we are still in cam talk. I will sacrifice some HP for reliable. Meaning keeping lift under 600. Thanks to many of you I have been getting a big education on the different components and cause and effect. Along with searching manufactures and other forums.
I am excited because i know it will be more than the 428 and that was scary fast on the street.
I am still considering the exhaust up grade, but for now the focus is engine. After all I may want to add something after I get used to another 100 HP

[blykins]

Cam time!

Cam design and selection is my favorite part of engine building. Some engines, like the FE and Cleveland need really specific parameters that are only found by years of dynoing and racing.

A Cleveland guy on my forum emailed me and said that he had another builder spec him a solid flat tappet camshaft for his 408C and he wanted to see if I could squeak him out anymore power for the drag strip. I made him go .4 of a second faster......that's about 80 hp worth.

FE's respond better to a specific shape of lobe on a hydraulic roller. Some guys like to spec aggressive lobes (such as Comp Cams Xtreme Energy or XFI series) and they end up losing horsepower and rpm both. Some lobe designs make a lot more torque than others.

[patrickt]

... and a SFT is off the table I take it?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

... and a SFT is off the table I take it?

We're not in Kansas anymore, Dorothy. Nobody wants a camshaft from 1963.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

We're not in Kansas anymore, Dorothy. Nobody wants a camshaft from 1963.

Uhhh, Bob Dole might....

[2bars]

I have talked to him on the phone and he has been very helpful for sure. I have been gaining knowledge as the build moves forward. I will probably be talking to him directly again next week.

[2bars]

Well I spent a lot of time with my builder yesterday. Kind of nice to have a local shop (within 100 miles) doing the work. I even got to touch my 427 Pond block .... Woo Hoo
He has been going through his check list on the block and making tweaks here and there.
We have now changed the intake to a Edelbrock Performer RPM as opposed to the Performer 390 that was on the 428. We are adding a windage tray. Going with hydraulic lifters. The lifter choice was more to do with the new motor oils than performance. Still working out the cam spec and my builder will be talking directly with Brent today. It will be a custom grind and not off the rack. It needs good vacuum for the brakes.

I do want to keep lift under 600 since that is what Edelbrock says is max for the head/valve/spring. I have read so many posts here and it seems most failures come from valve train or intake gasket. I saw some horrific crank damage here too, but hopefully the scat crank has me past that.
Bud and I discussed what parts would be best if we wanted the most trouble free miles even if it cost HP.
We are studding the head and (your gonna hate this) using reworked and ceramic coated stock rockers. The heads will get some cleaning up, but not going overboard with the polishing.

Understand that I have owned my cobra since 2005 with the 428. Supposedly 400 HP and 500 LB FT. I knew what that did for how I drove and while I got used to the power I never felt a Prius was gonna leave me behind. I believe this will make a very good reliable car.

[blykins]

Believe it or not, the factory non-adjustable FE rocker arm is one of the very best to use with a hydraulic roller. Most guys don't want to build a $20k engine and put a $300 set of factory rockers on it though....

[olddog]

Originally Posted by 2bars

We are studding the head and (your gonna hate this) using reworked and ceramic coated stock rockers. The heads will get some cleaning up, but not going overboard with the polishing.

I'm fine with the factory rockers, but the ceramic coated shocked me. Now this may be common practice, without issues, and I just never heard of it.

I do have industrial experience with coatings. One thing for certain is that coatings can come off. Ceramic tends to hold up well if the base metal that it is on does not flex too much. And too much is not very much. Ceramic is strong, extremely hard, and brittle compared to steel.

Why bother to add ceramic to a rocker that lasted 50 years, without it, given that if the ceramic comes off it will be bad? I could be totally wrong here and may get educated by the answer.

[2bars]

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I have not heard of the factory ones failing. We will be using studs in the head for the rockers as opposed to bolting the rocker shaft to the head since I have read about failures there. Time will be spent on push rod length for sure.

[2bars]

A big thanks to Brent today. I asked my builder to talk with him, builder to builder. After the call, we will be ordering some parts from him. He has been so helpful and i just couldn't keep taking free advice. Needed to share the wealth. Cam is dialed in now, so parts and machining are moving.
I do like being able to go into the shop and go over my engine with it laid out in front of me. This is a big plus for a local build. Makes it fun. I feel I would be missing out if I just ordered an engine but that's just me.

Now I can spend time this weekend working on a custom K9 crate for my new truck. So me and the dogs can go to to the track. How's the song go? took my cobra out to the track, hooked to the back of my Super Duty (I don't own a Cadillac)... That's topic is for the Ford Truck Enthusiast forum

[Phx Mike]

Glad to hear it's coming together. Get that thing built and running so you are ready to take some drives with us this fall when it cools down!

[2bars]

The ceramic is for reducing friction and dissipating heat. The builder uses it a lot in his engine's. Including cylinder head chamber and piston. I will see if I can get a better explanation after I talk with him Monday

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by 2bars

The ceramic is for reducing friction and dissipating heat. The builder uses it a lot in his engine's. Including cylinder head chamber and piston. I will see if I can get a better explanation after I talk with him Monday

I can see ceramic coatings in combustion chambers and the top of pistons, but I'd be concerned that ANY flexing of the rocker arms would reduce the integrity of the coating and result in failure - releasing ceramic particles or flakes into your oiling system.

Personally I wouldn't do it unless I saw a LOT of data to support that use.

YMMV

[Phx Mike]

I'm not an engine builder but I do have an engineering education and experience. I have never heard of a Ceramic material or coating that helps with heat dissipation. Ceramics can be produced in a wide range of thermal conductivity but are fundamentally insulators (amorphous structure, so generally poor at electrical and thermal conductivity). Most ceramic coatings are used as thermal barriers to protect the underlying material (generally metal) from high temps (i.e. Keep the underlying metal from absorbing heat from the surrounding environment) or to provide corrosion resistance. They are typically applied using plasma spray or electron beam vapor deposition processes. There are some ceramics that have relatively high (for ceramic) thermal conductivity but these coatings do not improve heat dissipation from the underlying metal, they simply hinder it less than other coatings would. They are used where a ceramic coating is needed for other reasons (abrasion or corrosion resistance) and there is need to minimize the negative impact to heat dissipation.

Also, there is not a lot of heat conducted up from the heads and cylinders to the rocker arms. The connection points between the heads and rockers are pretty minimal in surface area (and therefore serve as resistors to thermal conductivity) and the surface area to mass ratio of the rocker assembly is pretty high so any heat that gets conducted to the rockers tends to be radiated away or convectively transferred to the oil pretty quickly. So I don't see how coating the rockers would help dissipate heat from the heads and cylinders but maybe I am missing something!

Ceramics can be used for abrasion or wear resistance and I could see how this might be helpful at the pushrod cups but I have never seen that done before.

Anyway - still look forward to seeing that beast when you get 'er running!