Two Engine failures from Southern Automotive

[lpfomoco1]

besides the broken bolt and subsequent damage, what was so "poorly" done to the engine?

[MEATMASTER]

When you say you "stripped" the engine, are you talkin about taking off valve covers, intakes, distributors and oil pans? Or are you talkin about taking the heads off and the internals out and stripping the engine to the block?

More details and less generalisms would help. thanks

MEATMASTER

[Donald Campbell]

Originally Posted by FatBoy

I had quite a long chat with Bill this afternoon and he was able to give me his side of the story and from what I hear, it is nowhere near as clear-cut as has been suggested.
Bill has said that he will respond on the forum, so I don't want to steal his thunder, but it would seem the original poster may have been selective with some facts, exagerated others and simply fabricated others.
As a business owner myself, it always makes me very uncomfortable when I see someone bad-mouthing someone elses business without getting the other side of the story. There is very little, if any comeback on anyone who simply has an axe to grind and vents their angst on a public forum, but it can cause untold damage to someone's hard earned repuation and livelihood.
For the record, my experience of Bill (and Susan) and that of others I have spoken to here in the UK, has always been very positive and they have always been thoroughly honourable and honest in all dealings I have had with them.

Nuff said.

Paul

Paul,

I am glad to hear that your experience and that of others in the UK was good with SA. Please know that if my experience was similar to yours, I would be defending Bill and SA as you are!

However, my experience has not been golden and if you read the posts from others who have had or know of similar experiences to mine, along with the half dozen "private emails" that I have received personally from people who had the same or worse experiences with SA and chose to not go public, you might just change your tune. I will not post them, as requested by the individuals, which I know classifies them as hearsay.

The fact remains that I had two SA failures, with professional installers involved. SA eventually assisted with the failures - this is true. But the cost to me, my time, additional expenses, loss of use of the car (we have maybe two months a year of dry weather when you can drive a convertible in the PNW), far exceeded the minor corrective contributions made by SA and the major attitude from Bill.

Please remember that I am a consumer just like you, granted it sounds like you have had better luck with SA than I have! Regardless, and despite all the conjecture in this forum, I have received the answer to my question from my original post and it is indisputable that I am not alone in my experience.

Consider yourself fortunate!

[MEATMASTER]

Donald, here is a question.

For the most part, I think I understand what happened in the past, but at this point, what would make you satisfied now, and what are you asking for? Maybe I lost that somewhere in all these posts, but can you repost that for me?

Thanks.

MEATMASTER de-lux

[Donald Campbell]

Originally Posted by MEATMASTER

When you say you "stripped" the engine, are you talkin about taking off valve covers, intakes, distributors and oil pans? Or are you talkin about taking the heads off and the internals out and stripping the engine to the block?

More details and less generalisms would help. thanks

MEATMASTER

We were told that the replacement motor would arrive complete and tested. The replacement "crate motor" arrived incomplete and untested, and with used and or damaged parts. There were missmatched and missing fasteners throughout. We had to take off or swap out valve covers, carburator, turkey pan, starter, distributor, fuel lines, oill and coolant fittings, water pump. The original motor was installed by Unique in a gloss painted engine compartment that was perfectly detailed. Pulling and replacing a 427 without damage in a cobra is a chore. The headers were custom built for the first block and do not now fit the replacement motor.

[lpfomoco1]

Maybe the numbers of problems are because of the larger percentage of sa engines in cobras than any other manufacturer!

[Donald Campbell]

Originally Posted by MEATMASTER

Donald, here is a question.

For the most part, I think I understand what happened in the past, but at this point, what would make you satisfied now, and what are you asking for? Maybe I lost that somewhere in all these posts, but can you repost that for me?

Thanks.

MEATMASTER de-lux

I just wanted to know if my experience with SA was specific to me or a common occurance - I have that answer now.

[RodKnock]

Not that any of this thread's 10 pages can be unwound, but is there anything that can be done now by SA to fully resolve the matter in your mind or is it too late?

[Jamo]

Thanks for the additional response, Donald. I'm glad you weren't intending to put any kind of public pressure on the builder given what of the state of the facts now appear to be.

[madmaxx]

I side with the owner. Bottom line is if the engine would have run correctly from the begining this thread would have never occured. If the owner would have received what he asked for after the first issue this thread would have never occured. If the owner paid $1200 than I side with the builder if the owner paid over $10K no questions builder is at fault and should bend over backward fly out new motor pay for insall and removal etc.

[turnpike boy]

Glad you took the time to rebut. That there is something going on here is obvious - just not certain we can all derive the actual events.

Since SA did ship another motor and pay for a re-install, there is an impression of a mea culpa to be found. It is tacit acknowledgement that the first engine bought the farm; however, they did this on your say-so since they didn't have the engine to see what failed. Why do that if it isn't necessary? - good business practice, certainly, but kind of over-the-top to send you an entire engine without the failed one back first.

On the other hand, what was the "failure" that gave rise to replacing the engine to begin with? As you state "replacing a 427 without [engine compartment] damage in a cobra is a chore". Also, if "both failures were diagnosed and the motors were both shut down before major warranty damage occured", couldn't the first one have been made right without having to pull the motor?

It also appears that you saw lots wrong with the replacement engine prior to the install, as "We did not need a "crystal ball" to tell that the replacement motor had never been run because we became very familiar with the replacement motor and its condition when it arrived as we spent much time moving around parts and hardware.". And then "the replacement motor with ridiculously low miles failed on the dyno - then I was pissed!".

Huh.

Look...I do understand your frustration - and I don't fault you for same. It's just that there seem to be so many disconnects here, both with SA's version and yours, that being able to come to a conclusion just isn't possible.

Hopefully all is well now, and hopefully it will stop raining sometime in your lifetime. Enjoy the car as best you can - they really are an awful lot of fun.


-Roger

[lovehamr]

As one in the process of building their first FE I have to ask how this is possible?

Originally Posted by Donald Campbell

The headers were custom built for the first block and do not now fit the replacement motor.

Since (as far as I know) all FEs, 352 through the mighty SOHC, had the same exterior block size, how would changing one block for another cause your headers not to fit? Or do you mean different heads?

Steve

[cobred]

It goes to show there are 2 sides to most all stories. Its amazing how different the 2 parties see this. Im sure the engine cost big bucks, too bad he wasnt able to enjoy it from the first turn of the key.

[Jamo]

A bit of a rant and some truth...

To continue the thought from my last post since some folks just can't bring themselves to read and comprehend the English language in the context that it is written...my point was that I'm not real damn impressed that this thread was started by someone brand new who obviously came on here to complain by giving us a short set of facts. Once some question were asked, before and after a response by the other party, what has become obvious is that the minute you start digging a little...the story is not all that clear.

Using this site for public pressure when much of the blame can be laid at the person doing the complaining is exactly what we will monitor a thread 24/7 to prevent. It's damn easy to attack a reputation that has taken years to build up...and then back into the shadows. We still don't know who the hell Donald is...no intro, no basic information...don't even know what state he's from. Yet he expects folks here to join up in his cause on the simplist set of facts, which become more tangled every time he posts. The fact that there are some others who are disgruntled want to hop aboard his train means nothing...since there will always be others who will take the opposing view.

Each situation that occurs like this stands on its own...or falls on its own.

Here's how I see it.

I don't give a damn about the first engine. Whether the problem was minor or major, it was dealt with and superseded by the replacement engine. The cost of removing it from the car was covered. Tough to take a motor out of a Cobra? Yeah, well life sucks...it gets easier the third or fourth time. Done.

Second motor...if it was that bad...you should have sent it back in a timely manner. Period. I don't give a damn about your personal life or your vacation schedules...and neither would Judge Judy or a real judge. Business owners have obligations, but so do customers...Uniform Commercial Code. They sent you the second motor on your word without hesitation or question, and then you held onto the first one for months...their property at that point...and you held onto it. Then you made the biggest mistake...you had a third party tear into the second motor and basically rebuild a good portion of it (your descriptions are the best evidence of this)...including replacing the valve covers! So...nobody noticed broken bolts or a loose valvetrain? In any event, once that work was done, you had engaged in what is called "conversion"...the second engine was no longer a product of SA, and no longer their concern. Same damn basic priniciple that voids warranties for production cars when you start making modifications. The fact SA honored some of the bills months later was either stupid or damn nice, I'm not sure...a good case could be made for either. They might want to think about "no good deed goes unpunished" next time they bend over backwards for someone.

In any event, you should've sent it back; you didn't.

Then you let the situation simmer for another 8 or so months before complaining?

And then you come here whining on the veiled premise of "just wanted to see if others had problems." We don't like being used around here.

If you think you have a case...sue their asses off. In my opinion, you don't and you'd lose. Personally, I think you would have had a better case against the folks who tore into the engine, but you screwed that one up by blaming SA.

Just wanted it to be real clear what I think about this since I got an e-mail from someone thinking I agreed with Donald. Obviously, some of you may disagree for whatever reason or another. Great...you're entitled to your opinion as I am mine. Don't fear any moderation for your viewpoint...but please back it with some analysis, facts and without "assuming" or creating facts or just because you pity the buyer.

Again...if you come in here with your first post to complain about a builder or supplier instead of joining the community, you can expect to have your motives questioned.

BTW...for those of you thinking of attacking me, you're missing the point and wasting your breath. I gave an honest appraisal of what I think as a member...no filter, no BS and based upon common principles of the law whether you like it or not.



Edited to add this: I don't know Susan or Bill and have purchased nothing from them, nor do I care to.

[Sal Gerace]

I had my engine for about a year and half before I had it on the street. Bill had advised me on rotating the engine montly so that I did damage any of the valve train components with the spring pressure.Also advise on pr-oiling the engine prior to start up. I was given instructions on the proper oil to use and all the other info needed to breakin/maintain the engine.
Anyway to make a long story short I had an issue with the engie after 300 miles and Bill and Susan did whatever it took to make the engine right. They initially wanted to fly out their builder to handle the problem in the car but decided it best to have the engine sent back to them for a complete go over.Bill also was ready to drive the 20 or so hours to my place to pick up the car. They stood behind their build. They financially compensated me for removal and shipping of the engine. Sure I was not happy with the problem (cam journal oil groove incorrectly ground) but they felt my pain and made it right. And I am confident that if anything else arose they would assist in any way. Very supportive, friendly. Never evasive or accusing. They stand behind their product.

[Great Asp]

My take on this issue, is a lesson to people buying and installing engines.

1. If YOU are not qualified or "have time" to install your own motor, have the builder of the engine install the engine in the car. Then have THAT builder chassis dyno the car, and run all the bugs out that they can. You will have a higher success rate (the happy meter).

The engine builder is under no obligation under anyone's warranty to pay for the removal or re-installation of any motor, or the loss of your fun time (unless they installed it).
Frankley, to this end I think SA was being more than fair in compensating the OP for any engine removal. No engine builder would state up front that they would pay someone other than themselves to provide that level of warranty. Because they would not know the limitations of the offer.

2. If you take the engine to another shop OTHER THAN THE ORIGINAL BUILDER, be prepared for the "Hate Wagon" to start rolling. A lot of shops live to spew bad news about another shop. That's the way is.

3. If you take the 1st, 2nd, or 12th engine to another builder, the original builder will be less willing to work with you, see rule #2 above.

4. When shopping for an engine, get a list of builders you want to look at, then do the research. This is a great place to search threads for information, but there are other forums too. After all you are spending $14-30K on a motor, shouldn't you feel you have made the best choice.

For anyone other there reading this thread in the future, join this forum and "Start posting"! Tell people what you are thinking about doing. you will get open advice, and PM's with advice, companies, and phone numbers on lots of critical choices.

If you did have a list, and you decided on your engine builder, and the engine builder is not living up to what you expected, YOU made a bad decision. YOU have to take responsibility too.

5. Meet the perspective builders and tell them your expectations. I for example am picky about my builds. (I also do not drive my car in the rain). Feel comfortable with the guy on a personal and business level.

6. Handle any issue in a timely manner. Warranties expire for a reason.

Donald you don't know me, and I don't know you. I'm just asking you consider the above and think how satisfing your current knowledge or gut feeling would have been before you pulled the trigger on the first motor. If you now feel that there are others like you, that information would have been a lot more helpful early on.

Eric

JAMO +1

[McD00]

Originally Posted by Jamo

A bit of a rant and some truth...

To continue the thought from my last post since some folks just can't bring themselves to read and comprehend the English language in the context that it is written...my point was that I'm not real damn impressed that this thread was started by someone brand new who obviously came on here to complain by giving us a short set of facts. Once some question were asked, before and after a response by the other party, what has become obvious is that the minute you start digging a little...the story is not all that clear.

Using this site for public pressure when much of the blame can be laid at the person doing the complaining is exactly what we will monitor a thread 24/7 to prevent. It's damn easy to attack a reputation that has taken years to build up...and then back into the shadows. We still don't know who the hell Donald is...no intro, no basic information...don't even know what state he's from. Yet he expects folks here to join up in his cause on the simplist set of facts, which become more tangled every time he posts. The fact that there are some others who are disgruntled want to hop aboard his train means nothing...since there will always be others who will take the opposing view.

Each situation that occurs like this stands on its own...or falls on its own.

Here's how I see it.

I don't give a damn about the first engine. Whether the problem was minor or major, it was dealt with and superseded by the replacement engine. The cost of removing it from the car was covered. Tough to take a motor out of a Cobra? Yeah, well life sucks...it gets easier the third or fourth time. Done.

Second motor...if it was that bad...you should have sent it back in a timely manner. Period. I don't give a damn about your personal life or your vacation schedules...and neither would Judge Judy or a real judge. Business owners have obligations, but so do customers...Uniform Commercial Code. They sent you the second motor on your word without hesitation or question, and then you held onto the first one for months...their property at that point...and you held onto it. Then you made the biggest mistake...you had a third party tear into the second motor and basically rebuild a good portion of it (your descriptions are the best evidence of this)...including replacing the valve covers! So...nobody noticed broken bolts or a loose valvetrain? In any event, once that work was done, you had engaged in what is called "conversion"...the second engine was no longer a product of SA, and no longer their concern. Same damn basic priniciple that voids warranties for production cars when you start making modifications. The fact SA honored some of the bills months later was either stupid or damn nice, I'm not sure...a good case could be made for either. They might want to think about "no good deed goes unpunished" next time they bend over backwards for someone.

In any event, you should've sent it back; you didn't.

Then you let the situation simmer for another 8 or so months before complaining?

And then you come here whining on the veiled premise of "just wanted to see if others had problems." We don't like being used around here.

If you think you have a case...sue their asses off. In my opinion, you don't and you'd lose. Personally, I think you would have had a better case against the folks who tore into the engine, but you screwed that one up by blaming SA.

Just wanted it to be real clear what I think about this since I got an e-mail from someone thinking I agreed with Donald. Obviously, some of you may disagree for whatever reason or another. Great...you're entitled to your opinion as I am mine. Don't fear any moderation for your viewpoint...but please back it with some analysis, facts and without "assuming" or creating facts or just because you pity the buyer.

Again...if you come in here with your first post to complain about a builder or supplier instead of joining the community, you can expect to have your motives questioned.

BTW...for those of you thinking of attacking me, you're missing the point and wasting your breath. I gave an honest appraisal of what I think as a member...no filter, no BS and based upon common principles of the law whether you like it or not.



Edited to add this: I don't know Susan or Bill and have purchased nothing from them, nor do I care to.

The voice of reason....excellent post!

McVette

[Archrms]

Originally Posted by Donald Campbell

I just wanted to know if my experience with SA was specific to me or a common occurance - I have that answer now.

If this was all you intended to do, there is a more polite and tactful way to do it. It is obvious you were looking for something more, I'm just not sure what it is.

[CobraEd]

Originally Posted by McD00

The voice of reason....excellent post!

McVette

No, . . . No, . . . No. We try not to encourage him !!!!!!!


.

[madmaxx]

You guys won my attention span expired.