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December 2022
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Kirkham Motorsports

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Old 09-28-2022, 08:01 PM
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Default CSX 3000's at my local Ford dealer

I was surprised to see a couple of 427's in the showroom window of my local Ford dealer in Napa Valley. So, I was intrigued to go inside.

On display and for sale (no price listed) were CSX 3066 and CSX 3067. These, IIRC, are the somewhat controversial Completion or Sanction II CSX 3000's produced 2014/2015 I believe. These are aluminum CSX cars based upon Kirkham with a lot of NOS original parts and an original 427 SO block. I noticed what seemed to be a newer intake manifold and carb.

The cars had no mileage on them (4 and 8) with Montana plates. I believe these cars were originally to be sold as comp cars only, not registrable for the street. But these did have Montana plates now.

The salesman didn't have much knowledge about the cars. He sort of said the cars were built upon an early Shelby chassis (not correct). Perhaps he meant in type not in actual period. I didn't press or question him. I could see Kirkham's billet "Girling" calipers appeared to be used.

Based upon earlier history I suspect they are looking somewhere in the neighborhood of $400K each for the cars. Given that aluminum CSX's have been going for a lot of money that figure might not be totally outrageous given the original parts on board. But, registering the car, at least in California, might be challenging to go down the SB100 route.
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Old 09-28-2022, 08:15 PM
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If these are the ones... There was a small group of cars that were to be built by/for/and sold by the Shelby Foundation (not Shelby American) there were built as turn key complete vehicles and indeed there were supposed to be "race use only" because of the full build. It was my understanding these were to be built to order and not speculated (ie, build it and they will come) so who knows how many were actually completed. A little research ought to show what the numbers that were to be assigned were.

Supposedly they were to be sold on bill of sale with no MSO, so how they got titled/licensed anywhere let alone in the scam state of Montana is worth looking at. In fact, you should go back and ask to see the titles to find out who titled them. It'll be some sham LLC but maybe they used their name.

These cars WERE built on old frames that were stored in Shelby's Gardena warehouse. I have pictures of them...

If these are the cars I would say it would be impossible to get these through the SB100 process since they had the power train installed by the builders. In fact they would probably be forever disallowed in CA.
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Old 09-28-2022, 08:37 PM
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The SB100 process cannot even be started without individual invoices for the chassis/body, the engine and the tranny plus build photos showing the progression of the build. No MSO? Then just fahgettaboutit!
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Old 09-28-2022, 08:54 PM
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Google is a treasure trove... Search for "CSX3066" and you get:

https://www.beckerautogroup.com/inve...27-s-c-csx3066

This has some of the history. It does mention not street use. Based on this it would appear that Becker ordered this one, probably "on spec" since he's a dealer.

A similar search for CSX3067 shows it was auctioned twice (in 2020 and 2021) but did not meet reserve. There is a dangling link of 3067 to Becker so he may have originally purchased both.

Also there is a lengthy thread here:

Mystery solved. Shelby Trust to sell Real Cobras

Seeing Beckers wording and other searches reminded me of the word to use for these. I used "resumption Cobra" instead of "continuation Cobra"...
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Old 09-28-2022, 09:29 PM
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Drew Serb
https://www.hagerty.com/media/videos...lections-ep-6/

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Old 09-28-2022, 09:38 PM
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I started reading the long thread and it dredged up some memory cells. In the inventory of shelbys estate they found, I think the term used was "a montain" of new old stock parts. A few original chassis (with mso) but also nos components. It sounded like the intent was to use as many original components until the supply was exhausted at which time between mcclusky and Kirkham they would use current stuff if the same or fabricate replica parts but woukd stay true. The net result is that the first prodctions would more true than some later as nos parts were used up and so on... the thing we don't know is how many we're ever really built. As with many of their limited editions I'd wager this is still open and you could get one if you asked. Again this was not shelby American but was done by the family trust ( ie foundation)
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Old 09-28-2022, 10:40 PM
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The other thread confirms 3066 was denbestes and that links to the Montana plates and the Becker ad that places the car in ca. So we know where it started but not where it's been since
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Old 09-29-2022, 04:28 AM
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Just for clarification:

Quote:
Originally Posted by twobjshelbys View Post
These cars WERE built on old frames that were stored in Shelby's Gardena warehouse.
The frames were not 60's or even 70's, 80's constructed, but found to have been built by McClusky and left outside to "age" them, under contract with CS. CS reportedly had some unused MSO/MCO's for unassigned CSX3000 series chassis that he attempted to attach to these frames and build them as "lost" originals. Some NOS parts were sourced from various suppliers, some items reproduced and "aged" like the frames for authenticity. Unfortunately, CS got caught with his pants down, and that is the reason why they could not legally be sold as turn key cars for road use. Plenty of folks (two in Japan come to mind) who have tried to rewrite the history of them to suit their specific wants and needs, but they all eventually get caught in the lie that they perpetuate.

In regards to using Montana to get these on the road, I have no experience with the process, so I can't extrapolate further.


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Old 09-29-2022, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmustang View Post
Just for clarification:



The frames were not 60's or even 70's, 80's constructed, but found to have been built by McClusky and left outside to "age" them, under contract with CS. CS reportedly had some unused MSO/MCO's for unassigned CSX3000 series chassis that he attempted to attach to these frames and build them as "lost" originals. Some NOS parts were sourced from various suppliers, some items reproduced and "aged" like the frames for authenticity. Unfortunately, CS got caught with his pants down, and that is the reason why they could not legally be sold as turn key cars for road use. Plenty of folks (two in Japan come to mind) who have tried to rewrite the history of them to suit their specific wants and needs, but they all eventually get caught in the lie that they perpetuate.

In regards to using Montana to get these on the road, I have no experience with the process, so I can't extrapolate further.


Bill S.
Correct. The frames in the warehouse were not 60's frames but were the leftovers of the batch of controversial "completion" cobras from the 90s? They were, however, assigned VINS and had MSOs signed by Shelby. Original Cobras? No. Legit cobras? We'll argue that forever, but not again and not here please as nothing new can possibly be added.

The frames were not the reason they couldn't be sold. The primary reason was that completed cars couldn't.
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Old 09-29-2022, 08:25 AM
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When I visited with Drew Serb in 2021 he showed me several CSX 2000 and CSX 3000 aluminum cars he was building in his shop.

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Old 09-29-2022, 10:47 AM
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I think at some point somewhat recently that the Shelby Foundation was trying to resurect the "completion" car concept after Shelby passed away. From my vague recollection, they had 3 different manufacturers each build a car on speculation of selling them. Kirkham was 1 of the 3 manufacturers. I think David discussed the car he built on Facebook, unless that discussion was here.
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Old 09-29-2022, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ntCobra View Post
I think at some point somewhat recently that the Shelby Foundation was trying to resurect the "completion" car concept after Shelby passed away. From my vague recollection, they had 3 different manufacturers each build a car on speculation of selling them. Kirkham was 1 of the 3 manufacturers. I think David discussed the car he built on Facebook, unless that discussion was here.
In the other topic the builders of the first two cars were Kirkham and Drew Serb (with help from McClusky).
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Old 09-29-2022, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twobjshelbys View Post
In the other topic the builders of the first two cars were Kirkham and Drew Serb (with help from McClusky).
Looking closely at the photos that I took at the Ford dealer, I would say the red car, CSX 3066, was built by Kirkham and the white car, CSX 3067, was built by Drew Serb. Different fasteners are used: Serb (slotted) vs Kirkham (Phillips). Also different dash lights. Serb's look original. Also telling, the windscreen stencil on the red one refers to Kirkham Motorsports. The white one, no stencil.

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Old 09-29-2022, 04:07 PM
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These cars are nothing more than Continuation Cobras at best. The state of California found out the scam that was going on and refused to give them California titles. Shelby thought he could pull a fast one with a noted builder and make some $$$$$$$$$$$$. After Shelby’s passing it seems there were a few cars that got CSX numbers and limited editions added to them.
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Old 09-29-2022, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmustang View Post
Just for clarification:



The frames were not 60's or even 70's, 80's constructed, but found to have been built by McClusky and left outside to "age" them, under contract with CS. CS reportedly had some unused MSO/MCO's for unassigned CSX3000 series chassis that he attempted to attach to these frames and build them as "lost" originals. Some NOS parts were sourced from various suppliers, some items reproduced and "aged" like the frames for authenticity. Unfortunately, CS got caught with his pants down, and that is the reason why they could not legally be sold as turn key cars for road use. Plenty of folks (two in Japan come to mind) who have tried to rewrite the history of them to suit their specific wants and needs, but they all eventually get caught in the lie that they perpetuate.

In regards to using Montana to get these on the road, I have no experience with the process, so I can't extrapolate further.


Bill S.
I was hoping someone would bring up the frames, AC never sent out any frames, and Shelby didn't build bubkis! The vin plates do deserve some ink. In 1964 Shelby was trying to homologate the 427 as was Ferrari with their big engine car. The FIA had already been burned by the 260 Cobra and the GTO, so they sent reps to LA and Maranello, and told Carroll and Enzo to put up or shut up, they both had to shut up. Carroll had already made a bunch of the Shelby Inc tags to bypass, AC Ltd Thames Ditton. Those are the tags on the fake S/C cars. He would have gotten away with it, if it wasn't for those meddling kids! Cheers, Dennis
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Old 09-29-2022, 11:50 PM
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“Carroll had already made a bunch of the Shelby Inc tags to bypass, AC Ltd Thames Ditton. Those are the tags on the fake S/C cars. He would have gotten away with it, if it wasn't for those meddling kids! Cheers, Dennis[/quote]”



So you are saying that tags were already made up during the 1960s to support the completion chassis? By already made up I am under the belief that the chassis numbers were already stamped or scribed with their individual CSX numbers? I am sure that blank chassis tags would have been readily available but pre-stamped chassis tags? Why when they were typically hand scribed to begin with? Do you have evidence of this?
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Old 09-30-2022, 03:57 AM
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Yet more unprovable claims. I personally think they were made and left by the same space aliens that built the oyramids
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Old 09-30-2022, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twobjshelbys View Post
Yet more unprovable claims. I personally think they were made and left by the same space aliens that built the oyramids
I think you are confusing their assistance with the shelby aurora
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Old 09-30-2022, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CompClassics View Post
“Carroll had already made a bunch of the Shelby Inc tags to bypass, AC Ltd Thames Ditton. Those are the tags on the fake S/C cars. He would have gotten away with it, if it wasn't for those meddling kids! Cheers, Dennis




So you are saying that tags were already made up during the 1960s to support the completion chassis? By already made up I am under the belief that the chassis numbers were already stamped or scribed with their individual CSX numbers? I am sure that blank chassis tags would have been readily available but pre-stamped chassis tags? Why when they were typically hand scribed to begin with? Do you have evidence of this?[/quote]

The VIN plates were supposedly made to fool the FIA, into thinking Shelby had the cars on the way from AC, he didn't. The big question is, are there any VINs still out there? Of course, it could just be Carroll, trying to make up a story of how he just happened to have the unassigned numbers laying around? The more I think about it, the more I think it probably was the last explanation! Cheers, Dennis
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Old 09-30-2022, 10:06 PM
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Paul Dean April 15 1993, LA Times.
Google it up.
Paul broke the story, it was really funny at the time.
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