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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 08-14-2011, 07:45 PM
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Thumbs up Found out what "Lifting" means, the hard way at Blackhawk Farms Raceway

So... don't take your foot off the gas on a high speed bender (turn 2) mid-turn doing 85MPH pulling 5500 RPM. I missed the memo on that. The back wheels locked and the back end popped out. Four fishtails later, I couldn't save it and then did a couple 360's, the second one was in the grass. Good news, no damage or injuries, bad news - had to change my shorts!

I talked with a pro who saw it and he explained what "lifting" was. I got back on the horse, stuck the turn next time, but lifted again later on turn 5, fished-tailed wildly again several times and went off the track in the weeds.

I finally started to figure it out, just in time for pouring rain, but like an idiot - I went out it that too - earned some applause and respect from some other drivers, but I might as well have been on ice and found the grass again.

After a long day and tons of track time, I learned an awful lot. Then I drove the car home in a thunderstorm for an hour and a half - nonstop rain!! and smiled the whole way. I'll post pics as soon - what a day!!!!!
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Old 08-14-2011, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbocobra View Post
So... don't take your foot off the gas on a high speed bender (turn 2) mid-turn doing 85MPH pulling 5500 RPM. I missed the memo on that. The back wheels locked and the back end popped out. Four fishtails later, I couldn't save it and then did a couple 360's, the second one was in the grass. Good news, no damage or injuries, bad news - had to change my shorts!
!!!!
Unless you hit the brakes, I doubt the back tires locked.

When you lift, the cars weight shifts foreward. That adds weight to the front tires, but takes weight off the rear tires. They don't lock - they just lose traction.

Still, a very important lesson to learn. Glad you didn't hit the wall. If you don't spin it into the grass once in a while, you're not trying hard enough.
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Old 08-14-2011, 10:18 PM
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Default Is this just exclusive to a Cobra?

Is lifting just a Cobra phenomenon or is applicable to any lightweight car. reason I ask is I never experienced such while driving a Lotus Elise in Malaysia around the Sepang Speedway and that car was light, 1500KG. Granted it only had 172hp but was turbo charged and went like a bat out of hell. It did have a rear engine tho'. tin-man
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Old 08-15-2011, 04:39 AM
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I think bobcowan got it right. But, closing the throttle on a large, high compression engine in a car where the rear wheels are near the limits of traction can cause the rear tires to skid and slow to a much lower speed than the car. It feels like the tires are stopped completely, but until the driver steps on the brakes, they are not "locked", but turning slowly. Regardless, any time the tires are rolling at a different speed than the car is moving, the car will skid.
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Old 08-15-2011, 04:59 AM
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you should not be lifting in any turn on any track in any vehicle....
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Old 08-15-2011, 05:06 AM
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you should not be lifting in any turn on any track in any vehicle....
+1

You need to stop doing that before even worse things happen.

It's called Trailing Throttle Oversteer.
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Old 08-15-2011, 05:44 AM
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experience is priceless. oversteer can be useful but sounds like you might have a bit much, would look to suspension tuning. congrats on not tearing anything up.
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Old 08-15-2011, 06:11 AM
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+1

You need to stop doing that before even worse things happen......."
exactly. besides, it's a very rewarding exercise in will power to keep your foot planted firmly down at EXACTLY the right pressure. And you get a great feeling of satisfaction when the turn is behind you.


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Old 08-15-2011, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tin-man View Post
Is lifting just a Cobra phenomenon or is applicable to any lightweight car. reason I ask is I never experienced such while driving a Lotus Elise in Malaysia around the Sepang Speedway and that car was light, 1500KG. Granted it only had 172hp but was turbo charged and went like a bat out of hell. It did have a rear engine tho'. tin-man
Trailing throttle oversteer can happen in any powered, wheel driven vehicle that sends power (or even the majority of power) through the rear wheels. Depending on the vehicle and a myriad of other factors from weight to balance to suspension tuning, gearing, drivetrain configuration and tire selection, it will take more or less to provoke a tail-out orientation; but push the limits of your particular combination and it will happen.

The net effect is similar to pulling up your hand brake at speed while turning, or grabbing the rear brakes on your bicycle while your handlebar is turned.

The phenomenon is not necessarily your enemy if you master your car's dynamics and use it deliberately and judiciously.

Edit - re the Lotus: 1500KG is way heavier than most Cobras - surely it was lighter than that?

Also, rear or rear/mid engined cars generally tend to have more weight aft of the centerline and they will really swing their tails out when the rear tires lose grip in a corner. Some are better balanced than others, but cars like the old Porsche 930 Turbos were extreme in that regard and they will swing their arse end around like a pendulum.
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Old 08-15-2011, 08:44 AM
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Sounds like you had an awesome day out on the track!

Blackhawk is a great track (our favorite so far). My husband tracks there regularly, but I've only been out on it twice, once in a Lotus Elise and once in my Cobra. The cars do respond very differently.

Based on the numerous offs that I've seen or heard about, lifting occurs when the driver is unsure there is enough track available to complete the turn. One of my friends has posted video of her off on turn 5 at Blackhawk on You Tube (I'd have to look it up again if you're interested) and you can also almost see the exact moment where she lifted. She also took a trip out into the grass. Her next off a month later was even more spectacular, taking out a few bushes in the outfield past turn 6.

We haven't made any mods to my Cobra, so it's not really a track-worthy car (in my opinion). It's great in the straights, of course. My issue is trusting that the Cobra will make the corner when I turn the wheel. I am learning to remember to allow the car to correct when I go past the slip angle. I have learned on the street that forcing the slip angle can result in facing the wrong way on the street. :-) Luckily, no accidents so far.

Every driving experience is a learning experience about your own skills and your cars' abilities. I have learned to trust myself more and to trust the car more. I still don't trust other drivers on the streets!

Looking forward to seeing the pics!
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Old 08-15-2011, 11:40 AM
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I'm surprised that "they" let you go back out after the second spin. The groups that I've run will with let you put all 4 wheels off once a day, after that, you are asked to "park it" for the duration.

Good on you for having the "cajones" to keep pushing. But, as others have said, "lifting" mid-turn is a "no-no." (at least if you are anywhere near the limit). Most of my sports cars are old Porsches, all quite "tail-heavy", and all prone to spinnig off into the weeds if you get out of it in a turn. I think the factory makes you sign a waiver or something stating that you are aware of the consequences. Probably mentioned in the owner's manual in a couple of places too.

Careful out there, not a lot of protection in a cobra should you encounter something hard.
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Old 08-15-2011, 11:51 AM
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Quote:

You need to stop doing that before even worse things happen.
Yep. But the hard part is trusting the grip as you get close to the edge, Or better yet, slow down into the turn more and accelerate through. Nothing good can come from lifting.
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Old 08-15-2011, 12:02 PM
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Aren't you a little smarter now?? Experience is a good teacher if you can afford the tuition!!!!

Knowing where you were, probably the route you took thru turn one put you in a place in turn two that was undrivable---
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Old 08-15-2011, 12:14 PM
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Bob and Tommy got it.
It's not that your rears locked but the speed differential between your tires and what your un-throttled drivetrain wants to do, will cause a braking effect, throwing the weight of car to one corner, and that's where you lost it.
If you haven't done a traction circle in your Cobra, you're missing alot. Keeping the balance of the car is paramount.
It's true for any car but the Cobra will accentuate these issues. They're great cars to learn on. Driving other sports cars will be much easier.
Speeds are faster nowadays but the skill was greater in the 60's.
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Old 08-15-2011, 12:42 PM
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...another thing you also need to know when you are with an instructor, is what 'line' you are taking.

The Cobra is very unforgiving at 90 inch WB and many times you will need to take a different line into a turn.

I learned the hard way with an instructor that drove a Busch North car.....told me I was not driving the Cobra right...for a couple of years, I had been driving the Cobra that way....he got behind the wheel proceeded to blast around Watkins Glen at about 130 with me.

.....and what he found out, the hard way (with me in the passenger seat) is that if you take a Cup Car line with a Cobra, you may go backwards thru the uphill esses at 100+ and almost put it into the armco.

Be careful out there and always ask questions.
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Old 08-15-2011, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rodneym View Post
Bob and Tommy got it.
It's not that your rears locked but the speed differential between your tires and what your un-throttled drivetrain wants to do, will cause a braking effect, throwing the weight of car to one corner, and that's where you lost it.
If you haven't done a traction circle in your Cobra, you're missing alot. Keeping the balance of the car is paramount.
It's true for any car but the Cobra will accentuate these issues. They're great cars to learn on. Driving other sports cars will be much easier.
Speeds are faster nowadays but the skill was greater in the 60's.
I think just about everybody got that the rears didn't actually lock, and its actually the applied speed differential between the engine-braked rear tires and rest of the car that causes them to skid. The deceleration also causes weight transfer away from the rear and onto the front wheels, further exacerbating the loss of grip in the rear and allowing momentum to swing the tail end towards the outside of the turn.
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Old 08-15-2011, 01:17 PM
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Correct, the back wheels didn't actually lock up, that is what it felt like. You are all correct, weight pushed forward... I drove the correct line for the cobra, just lost nerve as I as coming up to the edge of the road. I am sure it would have stuck in retrospect, but things happen pretty fast out there and I thought what I was doing was the conservative thing, turns out it was pretty dunb, but I am smarter now.
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Old 08-15-2011, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
I think just about everybody got that the rears didn't actually lock, and its actually the applied speed differential between the engine-braked rear tires and rest of the car that causes them to skid. The deceleration also causes weight transfer away from the rear and onto the front wheels, further exacerbating the loss of grip in the rear and allowing momentum to swing the tail end towards the outside of the turn.
Yup yup. Put a disproportionate amount of weight on one corner and watch the scenery go by real quick. It's a contant balancing act.

BTW (Buzz), I wasn't arguing about the locking up. As I'm sure you're aware, street and freeway 'skills' don't translate to the track, not one damn bit.
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Old 08-15-2011, 05:04 PM
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Jimbo: Glad to hear you and that great looking car are OK. There is something to be said to have an instructor that races these cars and can share the pertinent knowledge without you learning the hard way (remember our friend Todd, he know his Cobra stuff). Hang in there. FYI, I only did two 360's this weekend but I was just bustin cones!

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Old 08-15-2011, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John McMahon View Post
you should not be lifting in any turn on any track in any vehicle....
+100!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You should complete all your downshifting and braking when approaching any turn in a straight line just before actually turning the steering wheel, once you begin turning in, you should have your foot off the brake pedal and on the gas pedal, if not accelerating, then maintaining your speed thru the turn untill you can accelerate out of the turn..........Slow in= fast out and a faster lap.......
practise/practise and more practise will get you there and you'll be quicker and safer and have a ton more fun......
Been there,done that, have done my share of mowing the runoff area........

[QUOTE As I'm sure you're aware, street and freeway 'skills' don't translate to the track, not one damn bit.
][/quote]
But skills learned on the track will save your A$$ on the street, been there, done that also, saved me from a head on collision with a 1 ton flatbed truck a few years ago which I doubt I would have survived as I was driving a Toyota Corolla, quick thinking and standing on the gas pedal instead of the brake pedal that day saved my life..........

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