Cammer parts.

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

You disagree with what?

A) The engine builder is a member of the FE Forum(s) and ClubCobra too?
B) The engine builder monitors and posts on various forums?
C) Problems with SOHC parts are well-documented by FE/SOHC experts such as Jay Brown dating back 5 years?
D) Engine builder built SOHC engine in 2014, which lasted 40 miles with Coon heads and a bad chain drive?
E) Engine builder either ignored KNOWN information on defective parts or knowingly installed said parts and sent a SOHC engine to Australia. And then when engine broke after 40 miles, said engine builder wouldn't honor warranty?

Bill, which one do you disagree with?

A.) The internet is a marketing tool for him not a font of knowledge. He is the one with the experience which is where knowledge comes from. I'll repeat this is a person who has built thousands of motors. He has had motors fail, he has had thousands on the dyno he has seen it all. It is a total insult for you suggest you have an opinion on an engine to him, he has literally forgot more then you now know or will ever know.
B.) The internet is a marketing tool. Do you thinking he is trying to figure out how to build a successful engine from your brilliant posts. The internet is a circle. Research something and if you read long enough you will find people that say it is the greatest thing ever and people that say is it an absolute piece of crap.
C.) How was he to know the chain would fail. Are 100% of Coon heads faulty in your check writing experience? What is the failure rate, how many were made, how many have you used, how many have failed on you. None because you have no experience other than reading internet BS with no way to know what is in fact true and proven. By the way I see the dye test on the head. Is that an acceptable level of porosity? I don't know, do you? Are you certified to use the equipment and read the results, no? Does every engine builder check every part, is the average consumer willing to pay for that?
D.) Apparently that is a fact but we don't know why the chain failed.
E.) Who said he would not honor the warranty? Damage is so busy throwing leaves up in the air it is not clear what he wants. One thing is clear you take Damages word as gospel based on what? I have no idea. He strikes me as an erratic person. Keith on the other hand has been around and supported this community for years with a very good track record.

I suggest you keep shaking your pom pom's. I am trying to suggest that the public lynching you feel is warranted is based on flimsy evidence. And if we were going to call experts to the trial you would have a hard time finding someone more expert than the guy you are trying to hang.

I don't know Keith Craft from Adam but the premise here is ludicrous. Did Keith handle this perfectly, likely not perfect.
BUT he really has said very little. You have heard one side of the story which is the definition of a lynching, mob justice.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

A.) The internet is a marketing tool for him not a font of knowledge. He is the one with the experience which is where knowledge comes from. I'll repeat this is a person who has built thousands of motors. He has had motors fail, he has had thousands on the dyno he has seen it all. It is a total insult for you suggest you have an opinion on an engine to him, he has literally forgot more then you now know or will ever know.
B.) The internet is a marketing tool. Do you thinking he is trying to figure out how to build a successful engine from your brilliant posts. The internet is a circle. Research something and if you read long enough you will find people that say it is the greatest thing ever and people that say is it an absolute piece of crap.
C.) How was he to know the chain would fail. Are 100% of Coon heads faulty in your check writing experience? What is the failure rate, how many were made, how many have you used, how many have failed on you. None because you have no experience other than reading internet BS with no way to know what is in fact true and proven. By the way I see the dye test on the head. Is that an acceptable level of porosity? I don't know, do you? Are you certified to use the equipment and read the results, no? Does every engine builder check every part, is the average consumer willing to pay for that?
D.) Apparently that is a fact but we don't know why the chain failed.
E.) Who said he would not honor the warranty? Damage is so busy throwing leaves up in the air it is not clear what he wants. One thing is clear you take Damages word as gospel based on what? I have no idea. He strikes me as an erratic person. Keith on the other hand has been around and supported this community for years with a very good track record.

I suggest you keep shaking your pom pom's. I am trying to suggest that the public lynching you feel is warranted is based on flimsy evidence. And if we were going to call experts to the trial you would have a hard time finding someone more expert than the guy you are trying to hang.

I don't know Keith Craft from Adam but the premise here is ludicrous. Did Keith handle this perfectly, likely not perfect.
BUT he really has said very little. You have heard one side of the story which is the definition of a lynching, mob justice.

The Internet is a "fountain of knowledge" too, do you disagree? It's not just for marketing. If you bothered to read Jay Brown's postings over the years on his own FEPower forum, as well as the FE Forum, anyone, including the engine builder, would have realized there were problems with those parts. Jay Brown is an expert as are many who write on those forums are. BTW, Jay Brown wrote a couple books, which I've actually purchased.

There are postings from the engine builder in the FE Forums at the time there were problems with these SOHC parts.


The chain drives were defective and the failure rate of the Coon heads may not have been 100%, but the defective rate was high. Would you still install parts with a 50% +/- failure rate? I wouldn't.

You haven't read Damage's threads at all. He has made clear what he wants in emails and phone calls to the engine builder. You refuse to read or just ignore it.

40 miles for $60,000. Personally, I don't care if the engine builder built a successful company or even if donates to charities, he built an engine with defective parts, sold it and is not honoring the warranty.

Again, the engine builder was aware that Coon heads had many issues, including porosity problems, and the chain drives had a significant failure rate dating back to 2010. As I said before, the engine builder must have ignored the information.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

I suggest you keep shaking your pom pom's.

I knew I should have trademarked and/or copyrighted that phrase. I could be getting royalty checks right about now. I guess I'm not as smart as Marshawn Lynch.

BTW, I shake my pom poms all the time. Exercise is a great way to keep those unwanted lbs off the belly and the Cobra.

[rodneym]

Rodknock,
Are you still interested in a SOHC?
Seriously.

[Joe's Garage]

I agree with Bill, when people start asserting opinions as to what is inside a respected engine builder's heart and that being the reason for poor quality, then time to shut it down. A little research on damage and how he trashed Absolute Pace starts to show a trend, no denying it.
Joe

[rodneym]

In fairness to all parties, we sometimes blur the lines between warranty-less 'race' parts and what we're used to (daily drivers that get 200,000 miles, no sweat).

How could a builder say to a supplier, "Your part broke, which caused $XX,XXX of damages. Pay me." No parts would get made and no engines would get built.

It's how the builder responds to these issues. Period. Builder and customer are a team, not adversaries.

Would I trust Keith to build me a badass FE? You bet.
Would I trust anybody to build me a new SOHC? Nope. (Perhaps a different topic).
Did Keith handle this well? No.
Could damage have been more patient and understanding. Tough one. Maybe.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by rodneym

In fairness to all parties, we sometimes blur the lines between warranty-less 'race' parts and what we're used to (daily drivers that get 200,000 miles, no sweat).

How could a builder say to a supplier, "Your part broke, which caused $XX,XXX of damages. Pay me." No parts would get made and no engines would get built.

It's how the builder responds to these issues. Period. Builder and customer are a team, not adversaries.

Would I trust Keith to build me a badass FE? You bet.
Would I trust anybody to build me a new SOHC? Nope. (Perhaps a different topic).
Did Keith handle this well? No.
Could damage have been more patient and understanding. Tough one. Maybe.

Rodney you have no voice here. Your opinion is not allowed. Dissension amongst us is forbidden. We're closing the Internet forums, because for G-d's sake, a consumer has a legitmate complaint.

Why? Because only a very select few here can actually build an engine for heaven's sake.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Rodney you have no voice here.

No, Rodney agreed with me. That makes him a smart guy. We need to hear more from smart guys.

[rodneym]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Rodney you have no voice here. Your opinion is not allowed. Dissension amongst us is forbidden. We're closing the Internet forums, because for G-d's sake, a consumer has a legitmate complaint.

Why? Because only a very select few here can actually build an engine for heaven's sake.

Check your driveway in 12 weeks.
You may find a crate with a brand new SOHC in it.
Paid for by Pat.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by rodneym

Check your driveway in 12 weeks.
You may find a crate with a brand new SOHC in it.
Paid for by Pat.

You know, I am feeling generous lately....

[rodneym]

Originally Posted by patrickt

You know, I am feeling generous lately....

Excellent!
In that case, please contribute to the "Support the Painting of KMP600 Fund".
Send payments to:
(available upon request)

[Joe's Garage]

Maybe blykins will post about his experiences with Keith Craft and quality of parts he has received from Keith. From what I've read blykins has used Keith Craft many times when precise work is required for some of blykins high end builds. Are you guys ready to say blykins engines are crap where Keith Craft provided some parts? Do you think blykins shows poor judgment in going with Keith Craft as a custom parts supplier? This is the trouble you get into when you take too much stock in one person's claims, and that one apparently having a history of it.
Joe

[damage]

Here's Keith Crafts first response.


On 12 Nov 2014, at 8:33 am, lsmith@keithcraft.com wrote:

Not sure if Coon will warranty anything on the Timing set or not. I know we had a Tensioner break years ago and got basically not help from any vendors, they consider all this race parts. We could go back with the new Pond timing set if you would like to try something different. I can have the timing set in a week or so and will take a couple weeks for valves since they are a custom part. Thanks

[damage]

Here's a list of the emails I have sent and what has been responded too.


DT EMAIL TO KC, My first email to you on this matter was 11/10/14
KC EMAIL TO DT, email You responded and advised me to let you know what parts I needed 11/12/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance I responded acknowledging your request. 11/12/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance Photos of all damaged parts and parts list provided 11/22/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance Requested confirmation of email received 11/22/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance Requested confirmation of email receipt 11/26/14
KC TO DT, email from Lance confirmed receipt of email and forwarded to Keith for his comment 11/27/14. Including photos
DT TO KC, email to Lance acknowledging your email. 11/27/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance and Keith asking for a response 12/11/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance and Keith asking for a response 12/16/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance and Keith asking for a response 12/17/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance and Keith asking for a response 12/23/14
DT TO KC, TELEPHONE CALL spoke to Lance asking for a response 1/7/15 request by yourself to forward photos direct to Keith
DT TO KC, email to Lance confirming telephone conversation 1/7/15 and forwarding photos again
DT TO KC, email to Lance asking for different email address for Keith 1/9/15 because the email address supplied for Keith was incorrect.
KC TO DT, email from Lance saying KC was willing to help 1/10/15
DT TO KC, TELEPHONE CALL to Lance asking what’s going on 1/14/15
DT TO KC, email Keith and Lance forwarding parts list and pictures again as per your request after another telephone call 1/14/15
KC TO DT, email from Lance confirming Keith has been again forwarded all information. 1/14/15 and a copy of an email from Keith to Lance confirming that he wanted photos of all broken parts.
DT TO KC, email to Keith and Lance asking for a time frame on when I will get a response. 1/14/15
DT TO KC, email to Keith with parts list in response to Keith post on Cobra Forum. 2/4/15
KC TO DT, email from Lance confirming that Keith received parts list 2/4/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance confirming his response 2/4/15 and confirming that I have never had a direct response from Keith.
KC TO DT, email from Lance saying he thought I had been in contact with Keith. 2/4/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance stating that Keith has never responded to any emails. 2/5/15
KC TO DT, email from Lance confirming that Keith would have a response tomorrow. 2/5/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance confirming his response 2/5/15.
KC TO DT, email from Lance asking for more information on what happened and how was engine used. 2/7/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance explaining every detail of what occurred with engine. 2/7/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance asking for answers and update on where things were at 2/16/15
KC TO DT, email from Lance stating he would get back to me. 2/17/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance confirming his advice and requesting immediate response. 2/17/15
KC TO DT , email confirming will let me know asap. 2/17/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance asking where we are at 2/19/15



If you like Bill I can keep posting the rest of the emails too, there's not one where I have approached this the wrong way. I have simply tried to set out factually exactly what has occured and asked for their response.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by damage

If you like Bill I can keep posting the rest of the emails too, there's not one where I have approached this the wrong way. I have simply tried to set out factually exactly what has occured and asked for their response.

Amen.

Oops, I better not say that word. I'm not supposed to take your words as "gospel".

Damage, BTW, the whole list of emails strikes me as being "erratic." Sometimes you email the engine builder on the same day, then 1 or 2 days apart and then even week or more at times. Very erratic behavior. No standard paterrn at all.

(sorry couldn't resist a little humor).

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Amen.

Oops, I better not say that word. I'm not supposed to take your words as "gospel".

Damage, BTW, the whole list of emails strikes me as being "erratic." Sometimes you email the engine builder on the same day, then 1 or 2 days apart and then even week or more at times. Very erratic behavior. No standard paterrn at all.

(sorry couldn't resist a little humor).

There are two sides to every story. We have not heard the other side.
I'll admit it doesn't look good, but there is another side.

With that said we have not heard the other side of the Bill Cosby thing but would will not find me jumping to give him the benefit of a doubt.

[mhacars]

Well said with respect to Bill Cosby. I have a read a lot of positive things about Keith Craft on this forum and I have also about other consumers having poor work come from his shop. What is happening to Damage falls in line with what I have heard elsewhere.

[damage]

This is my email wherein I sent a complete list of parts and photographs of all the broken / damaged components. I haven't copied the photographs that were sent as part of the email so the headings as you roll down the page were the photo descriptions.



From: David Trask <djtrask71@gmail.com>
Date: 22 November 2014 1:17:58 am AEST
To: "lsmith@keithcraft.com" <lsmith@keithcraft.com>
Cc: David Trask <david@traskdevcorp.com.au>, djtrask71@gmail.com, David Kirkham <kirkhammotorsports@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Keith Craft Racing - Contact Message


Hi there,

I've finished doing the autopsy on my engine, it's a bit messy.

Going to need
full gasket kit don't forget that I need 2 inlet manifold gaskets. Exhaust manifold gasket.
Big end bearings as they are all chattered and marked.
Main crank bearings same as big ends all marked
1 piston
Front timing cover
Full set of exhaust valves I haven't got the valves out yet so not sure if inlets are bent. Probably best to replace them all.
Timing chain set and gears, can you guys supply one the sets that have the .250 journal. I've heard they are a lot stronger.
Stub cam journal bearings x2
Also I noticed that both heads have cracks and porosity and are leaking coolant into the exhaust ports. Can you replace these? Or is it easier for me to weld them and repair.

It appears as though the chain has snapped as a result of the right side cam not being timed correctly as there is valve marks to all Pistons which is not from the snapping of the chain.

The piston that I have to replace has about a .10-.15 thou score in the side of it as the stub cam bearing has been pressed into the block not square and a chunk of that bearing has broken off and gone through the engine which is what has scored all the bearings as well. Cam bearings appear to be okay.



This is the piston.





You can see the big groove in the stub cam bearing from the misalignment.




This the broken part of the bearing.





Broken chain.




Broken chain.




Broken front cover.





Valve marks to top of Pistons





Valves that have been hitting Pistons during operation.




Bent valves.



Crack in head.





Another of the porosity





If you could let me know ASAP a so I can start getting things arranged on this end for it to go back together it would be appreciated.

Many thanks for your help.

[damage]

So Bill,

Any chance you could explain which part of these first 3 emails is me coming out with both guns blazing.

I couldn't even get a response to confirm that they had recieved my email for some weeks afterwards

I didn't receive any creditable answers on any of these emails till after Christmas despite sending emails enquiring if they had had a chance to assess my email information.

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by damage

So Bill,

Any chance you could explain which part of these first 3 emails is me coming out with both guns blazing.

I couldn't even get a response to confirm that they had recieved my email for some weeks afterwards

I didn't receive any creditable answers on any of these emails till after Christmas despite sending emails enquiring if they had had a chance to assess my email information.

If they did not reply, shame on them they are wrong.