Cammer parts.

[mhacars]

RodKnock,

I can't believe that they are still selling them and they have 6 sets. They also say that they are hard to come by. Given porosity and core shifting, they are abundant and would make terrific boat anchors.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by mhacars

RodKnock,

I can't believe that they are still selling them and they have 6 sets. They also say that they are hard to come by. Given porosity and core shifting, they are abundant and would make terrific boat anchors.

I doubt the Coon heads have a 100% defective rate, but I'm sure it's not 1% either. However, I figured out early on in the process that I wasn't bold enough to take a chance on them a $5,000+/pair bare.

Why Damage's engine builder used parts that were well-known to be trouble is beyond my simple comprehension. And I believe Damage has previously stated that the parts aren't under warranty because the engine builder didn't make them, likely without any disclosure that the parts (heads and chain drive) were probably inferior. In terms of a warranty, what makes them any different than, say, a Carillo rod, is just plain weird to me, since I wouldn't build something with parts that I couldn't warranty.

Whether the defective parts are known or not known to be defective, a warranty should cover their repair and/or replacement. Using the same new home builder analogy again, at least here in CA, a new home builder has no choice in the matter. Either the new home builder's insurance pays the repair bill or it's the new home builder, of course, assuming they're still around to be sued.

But that's just me, the consumer advocate.

[mhacars]

RodKnock,

I agree that the builder should stand behind the product that goes out their door. A home builder does not make the components and they have to warranty the product. Why can't then engine builder in this case. It comes down to how you conduct yourself as a business person and it is evident that Keith conducts himself in an improper way. At the very least, Keith should go and send Damage all the parts including the heads from Pond as a way for Damage to mitigate his loss. Given what I have read, that will happen when hair grows out of the palm of my hand.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by mhacars

Given what I have read, that will happen when hair grows out of the palm of my hand.

I hear Rogaine can do that for you.

I believe the engine builder has made an offer now, but from what I see, it wouldn't be enough in terms of my thinking. And it seems Damage's too.

[joyridin']

If somebody botched a $60k motor this bad, I couldn't imagine what they would do to a $10-$15k engine.

Using this theory, you could throw used parts in a $25k motor and claim since you didn't make the parts, they are not under warranty.

[David Kirkham]

Gentlemen,

First, I really think you guys should understand who Damage is. He is David Trask, a former F1 boat driver. To keep this in perspective you need to understand he is a driver/athlete of such extreme skills that trying to keep up with him on a track would be akin to playing one-on-one basketball with Michael Jordan and expecting to make a shot. I believe any suggestion he abuses his equipment is unfounded. In motorcar racing spectators are likely to help you if you crash. In ocean racing “spectators” are likely to eat whatever is left of you after you tumble across the waves. Broken parts can be especially lethal on the water. Consider a prop shaft breaking, causing the nose to dive and dig in--sending you into cartwheels.

I have spent many hours on the phone with David. In addition to being a very successful businessman, it is very apparent to me he is also an extremely skilled and knowledgeable mechanic. He is a self-made man who isn't afraid of grease under his fingernails—even though he can afford about any mechanic around. He works very, very hard to understand things.

Unfortunately, conclusions have been surmised regarding David which I do not believe are true. David has been, and remains, an exceptional customer of ours. He has always paid on time and done everything he said he was going to do. He never complained about price. He simply wanted things done right. I certainly don't blame him.

It appears some have thought that because he has commented about two different vendors that there must be a problem with Damage. I sincerely do not believe that to be the case.

Unfortunately, I believe Damage got caught up in a difficult situation with Absolute Pace. I think Kirkham had a difficult time with Absolute Pace as well. (Absolute Pace no longer sells our products in Australia and we are no longer affiliated with them in way.)

Keith Craft is more complicated, as Keith is a personal friend and customer of mine. I have known Keith and his wife Shelly for years and I consider them wonderful people. From Keith's posts I think he is tired. It happens. I feel for him and his beautiful wife. I wish him the greatest success.

Damage told me his motor that failed within a few miles. All the emails Damage listed are indeed emails that were sent to Keith. I was copied on all of them. Damage says the valves are marked 360 degrees around. I take him at his word; he knows what he is talking about. I think marks can only happen while the engine is running (valves spin when running). The moment a timing chain breaks, the valves stop moving and spinning (and marking).

The photos show cracks in the ports from the porting that Keith probably did. I imagine the walls got thin and Keith welded them up. Unfortunately, Damage says the port walls are too thin to be useable.

Keith and Damage have become good friends of mine (like virtually all our customers). Yesterday I told Damage to send the heads to Kirkham. We will make Damage a new set of heads from billet (if we can figure out how to do it). I imagine we can. We can make just about anything. We have a new Integrex 5 axis machine (9 total axis when you count up the parallel axis) which would be perfect for these heads. I can't wait to see Damage going down the road with a smile.

David

[Dimis]

David always a class act! ^

Good luck with the billet heads.
That would be a fitting piece to cap off the dramas that has been damage's build.

[Detroit Bill]

I guess I am the person doing the surmising. I apologize if I offended David it was not my intent. The whole story with Pace and Craft is incredible. Really quite unbelievable for one car. I hope it can be settled and he can enjoy the car when it is done. I also hope the Crafts are doing well and this is nothing more then a bump in the road for them.

I am sure the Kirkhams will take care of things and make it right.

[rodneym]

The Kirkhams.
One of a kind.

[Barry_R]

OK
I'm am going into some dangerous territory here - - but I feel I might need to add a few things that are worth noting. Take the comments for what they are worth.

First is that I have no real personal nor business relationship with Keith. We talk once in a great while and I have sent him a pair of my heads to evaluate. He is a competitor and there is no incentive for me to defend him. I do however occasionally find myself in similar situations and feel the need to put a few things into the builder's perspective from an uninvolved but experienced third party position.

I have built several Cammer engines, and they are a very challenging combination to get really right. As a very much foreshortened program from Ford, they never saw the degree of development that would normally have addressed some areas of weakness. The timing drive system is the most problematic. Nobody - nobody anywhere - has an truly extensive history of hundreds street Cammer builds that they can develop from in the same way that we have evolved the wedge motors. Every single one is something of a prototype in that way.

I do not see the length of the chain as the real issue. I feel that there are genuine problems getting good front to rear chain alignment since each drive/driven item attaches to a different casting - including idlers and tensioners on the heads, the crank, the stub working on a cover mounted bearing, both cams being located by the heads - if anything is off by a minute amount it loads the chain, and many of these have no built in means of adjustment. Allowing some of these items to float on their respective axles rather than hard mounting them might actually work better even though it is counterintuitive. All of the drivel above means that even a slightly marginal chain could be driven beyond its ability by a seemingly minor issue that is nearly impossible to measure or control.

There are only a few chain suppliers for Cammers. The original was a company named Diamond, which provided a .222 pitch chain. There are either out of business or at least not interested in producing automotive chain these days. I believe that Munro has a .250 pitch chain that is likely the best option available, but it requires dedicated sprockets and is not always easily obtained here in the 'States. The two most readily available parts are from either Rolon (India) or Morse (USA or Mexico). I have broken a chain on a Cammer at 2000 RPM - it was a Rolon. I no longer use those parts as a result of the experience, but must admit that we subsequently found an alignment issue that may have been the true root cause of the failure.

As perhaps the only other person here who actually built several SOHC engines, and has broken a timing chain on a Cammer I can personally and absolutely guarantee that it can and will bend every freaking valve in the damn engine even when you have plenty of clearance. It will also bend several STEEL T&D rocker arms and can cause other damage as well. My exact same engine was repaired with the same cam, heads and pistons and subsequently went to 7200 RPM and made 870 HP.

A correctly designed piston will have valve notches that perfectly match the valves in terms of placement and angle. I can also absolutely and positively guarantee that the valve contact can deliver a perfect round imprint on the piston if contact occurs. A roller tip rocker or a rocker on an SOHC engine will not have any rotation force on the valve at all beyond the very small (10 degree?) partial movement cause by the spring winding as it compresses. There is nothing there to cause the valve to rotate. Nothing. The normal and proper wear pattern on the tip of a race valve is a nearly straight line with no indication of rotation.

The next item to address is the Coon heads. Bill Coon is at best a VERY CHALLENGING individual to do business with. I don't really like the guy, but I am able to deal with him. Most of the stories are true, and many others have not been published. With all that in the open I need to point out that I have sold many sets of the Coon Cammer heads, and despite the issues with "the man", there have NEVER been any problems with the parts at all. The only time I ever hit water was in a pair that we had so radically modified that they were almost beyond recognition to achieve 456 cfm. Bill is local to me, and I have been in the world's filthiest garage while he pressure tested his heads to 60 psi and have never had a leaker (except for that one pair that we brutalized with an insane amount of welding before porting into a completely different shape). I can't really say what you're looking at with the dye in the picture from a few thousand miles away, but can pretty well wager that it is not a destructive level of porosity as applied to aluminum casting.

I cannot and will not comment on the respective behaviors of the involved folks, but needed to point out some misinformation I saw posted here. Back to your regularly scheduled programming...

[Barry_R]

On a completely separate note. I will be glad to take those unrepairable and unusable heads and provide some level of cost recovery.

I will have John Marcella here in Detroit (do a Google search on him...) weld them up into something very, very usable and radical that you'll end up reading about in the magazines. There is absolutely nothing made from aluminum that he cannot repair. On some parts the cost outweighs the benefit - but a pair of Cammer heads would justify his time, and the level of work required on these simply pales in comparison to the stuff he often take on.

[Detroit Bill]

Here is a rare example of an internet expert who is actually an expert. The whole thing has gone full circle!

[damage]

David Kirkham, thank you for your kind words and your more then generous offer. This just keeps reinforcing with me that there is absolutely no doubt that you are the one and only Cobra guy to deal with.

Detroit Bill thank you for your apology I sincerly appreciate that.

Barry R, while I understand your comments that the valve does not rotate there still remains questions on my motor and what I believe is a valve that has both rotated during its operation and also at the same time been subjected to continuing valve to piston interference.

This is a photo that I have zoomed into and cropped of one of the 4 exhaust valves on the right hand bank of the engine.



And this is the corresponding piston notch.



It is pretty obvious that a continual rotation of the valve has occured whilst also contacting the piston. If you zoom right in on the valve photo you can also see the exact contact points which were the final contact when the chain broke.

I can't in my mind come up with any logical explaination as to why the valves are witnessed a full 360 degrees if 1. The valves do not rotate during operation. And 2. They are witnessed a full 360 degrees which would mean full time contact during operation.

I'm happy to be corrected on my thinking if a logical explaination can be given, but several well known engine builders and drag racers that I am friends with here in Australia have looked at these things with me and all are of the same opinion.

As far as these heads are concerned the leaks are directly as a result of machining out into water jackets and then welding them to repair and hand smoothing the port when finished. As my engineer said in his email the wall thickness is less about 40 thou. This ain't enough meat to ensure they don't crack like they have.


I know these can be repaired my guys have fixed way worse then this before BUT there is an equation of cost v's effort that I have considered and the potential for that effort and cost to be frivolous if the repair doesn't last.

The simple fact of the matter is if I wanted this sort of hassle I would have bought 2nd hand equipment and rolled the dice.

I didn't I bought new equipment from someone that is supposed to be well regarded, the parts have failed and there has been little to no offer of assistance from this engine builder for warranty even though I all I have requested is parts.

[Grubby]

Very nice - Kirkham and Survival Motorsports have both taken the opportunity to really shine. Both offering solutions to a problem they have nothing to do with. They are both class acts.

I would do business with either without hesitation.

John

[damage]

Just to give a fair comparison this is a valve from the left side which clearly shows just the point of contact when the chain broke.



Note that the valve is not marked a full 360 degrees.

[joyridin']

Originally Posted by Barry_R

On a completely separate note. I will be glad to take those unrepairable and unusable heads and provide some level of cost recovery.

I will have John Marcella here in Detroit (do a Google search on him...) weld them up into something very, very usable and radical that you'll end up reading about in the magazines. There is absolutely nothing made from aluminum that he cannot repair. On some parts the cost outweighs the benefit - but a pair of Cammer heads would justify his time, and the level of work required on these simply pales in comparison to the stuff he often take on.

Thank you for the great explanation. Here is the question I think most of us reading this thread would like to know. Knowing the issues with these engines, why would you build an engine for a customer...not located in the USA on top of it...if you know there are issues? Do you warn them in writing before taking their money they have no warranty, or do you just build it, hope there isn't a problem, then if one appears, try to blame somebody/something else?

[maurice19]

Way to go, David and Barry.
Maurice

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by joyridin'

Thank you for the great explanation. Here is the question I think most of us reading this thread would like to know. Knowing the issues with these engines, why would you build an engine for a customer...not located in the USA on top of it...if you know there are issues? Do you warn them in writing before taking their money they have no warranty, or do you just build it, hope there isn't a problem, then if one appears, try to blame somebody/something else?

That probably doesn't deserve a response, Barry didn't build the engine so why make it his problem or imply he operates the way your mind has conjured up how KC operates?

Does anyone actually believe damage, a guy who digs into every detail, dropped $60K on a motor build and didn't discuss with Keith what parts would be used? Not a chance period.

Barry, thanks for sharing your knowledge and educating some of us including David Kirkham on the finer nuances of cammer builds and problems. There's no substitute for hands-on experience. It always amazes me how bogus facts are presented with such conviction as to not question the veracity of those facts.
Joe

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

Here is a rare example of an internet expert who is actually an expert. The whole thing has gone full circle!

A consumer who purchases a car, an engine, a dress, a computer, a McDonald's iced tea, or whatever, doesn't need to an expert in anything. However, the consumer who purchases a $60K engine, probably wants his engine to last more than 40 miles. I never doubted the veracity of Damage's claims. So, maybe I'm an "internet expert" in reading people.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

The next item to address is the Coon heads. Bill Coon is at best a VERY CHALLENGING individual to do business with. I don't really like the guy, but I am able to deal with him. Most of the stories are true, and many others have not been published. With all that in the open I need to point out that I have sold many sets of the Coon Cammer heads, and despite the issues with "the man", there have NEVER been any problems with the parts at all.

With all due respect Barry, you're one of the leading engine builders and FE experts in the country, so if I were Bill Coon, I CERTAINLY wouldn't want to get on your bad side.

However, Jay Brown, another FE expert, one who has published at least one book on FE Intakes, had porosity problems with two pairs of Coon's Cammer heads:

August 26, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012

"On the heads, they had to go back and forth to the welding guy four times before all the porosity got welded up; turned out that five of the exhaust ports and one intake port had serious porosity issues, with casting sand coming up out of the casting during the welding process. My machinist was driven nuts by these events, continually having to get the castings rewelded after one porous section was fixed, and the porosity just showed up in another spot. What a nightmare; so much for the quality of Bill Coon's head castings! These heads were worse than any of the Dove SOHC heads I've had problems with. On these heads I also had to have new guides put in, and the guides had to be custom machined because of the oddball guides used in the heads. The reason they had to be replaced was that the tops of the guides were significantly out of round; they appeared to have been hammered in during installation, and were distorted by nearly a thousandth at the top of the guide. You can't hone that out on a guide, so they had to be replaced. This is the second set of Coon heads I've had this problem with. Warning to the other guys out there who have Coon heads; check your valve guides! If your shop doesn't catch that during the valve job, you could be in for a nasty surprise when running the engine."

All it takes is a google search. No expertise required.