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  #141 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2015, 01:06 PM
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Bill,

I would suggest you read my post again.

This blow up happened way back before your thanks giving holidays. I have sent 25 emails since then to try get an answer.

As far as me having my car on a race track. The car wasn't being raced it was a car show simple as that.

Just because the car is on a race track doesn't mean it's being raced. If you are in your garage does it mean you are a car.

Your correct they didn't cast the heads BUT they did the machine work on them on their CNC machine and they went through the water jackets and they welded the heads back up.

Pretty simple in my book.

As to the rest of your insults and innuendo, I'll leave that alone because you have no idea.

I hope that one day you pay for something and the person you pay to do the job doesn't do what they say.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroit Bill View Post
Porosity is an issue with Aluminum castings. OEM's treat parts.

Knowing what I know (which is admittedly very little) about a Ford Overhead Cam engines leads me to believe that building one is a risky business. I think it is safe to say it is a poor design. If you showed anyone with a little technical knowledge that chain setup they would question it.

If I did buy one and put it in a 2,100 pound car that I had never driven before I think I would have taken it easy for more than 40 miles and got the lay of the land. The first miles would certainly not been on a track. It is not inconceivable that Damage has some culpability in this, in fact it is likely in my mind. If he did over rev it he has some blame in this. I think it would be very easy to over rev it. It did run on a dyno with no problem.

Keith could have done everything perfectly right (which I suspect he did) and this would have happened.

Damage found the casting to be porous so he gave them a piece of his mind?
Did they cast the head? "Giving them a piece of your mind" does nothing to solve the problem. I also suspect that is not the first time he has done that. Let me use a different set of words. I found the porosity and went bat **** crazy on them. 25 emails? I would hesitate to answer an email because there would probably be another before I was done with the first.
I understand the position Keith is in. He is in a no win situation. After Damage rebuilds it himself and it blows up again what then? He is complaining his vendor is not acting professionally when he is not.

I own a business, stuff happens. Much of it beyond my control do to material problems that are not apparent when we built the product. There are jobs we don't take because of the customer. There are customers we don't accept any work from because of our experiences with them. With my product which would have an equivalent cost of $6,000 I would have sent the customer a check for the full $6,000 at this point and parted company letting them keep the product. Because it is a no win situation. Keith can obviously not do that.

Damage is his own worst enemy, he backed Keith into a corner and will not let him out. I don't care what it cost Keith did not make $60K on the engine. This is the second person Damage has had a MAJOR issue with in this thread. Does anyone see a trend. I have to point out he chose Damage as a screen name... classic.

I feel for Keith, he has built thousands of engines and this is being held up as an example. Damage is not a typical customer, thank god.


Good luck Keith.

For the record I don't know Keith and I am having my engine built by a local builder.
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  #142 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2015, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by rodneym View Post
I've been hanging out in parking lots.
You're not one of those low hanging baggy pants types doing sideshows are ya?

Not that there's anything wrong with that.
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  #143 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2015, 01:24 PM
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Ok so here is my first email contact.

Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 7:23pm
To: info@keithcraft.com
Subject: Keith Craft Racing - Contact Message


The following information was just submitted via the Keith Craft Racing Internet site Contact form.

Contact Information: First Name:
david

Contact Information: Last Name:
trask

Contact Information: Telephone Number:
61412886077

Contact Information: Email Address:
djtrask71@gmail.com

Contact Message: Message:
Hi there, I have one of your cammer engines that I bought off Keith Craft through David Kirkham. I have only just got the vehicle on the road and at 65 kilometers (about 40 miles) the engine appears to have broken a timing chain and bent valves. I haven't removed the engine from the car to disassemble as yet but want to touch base with you and advise you that I will want to make a warranty claim on the components that are damaged and or failed.
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  #144 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2015, 01:26 PM
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Here's Keith Crafts first response.


On 12 Nov 2014, at 8:33 am, lsmith@keithcraft.com wrote:

Not sure if Coon will warranty anything on the Timing set or not. I know we had a Tensioner break years ago and got basically not help from any vendors, they consider all this race parts. We could go back with the new Pond timing set if you would like to try something different. I can have the timing set in a week or so and will take a couple weeks for valves since they are a custom part. Thanks
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  #145 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2015, 01:29 PM
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This is my email wherein I sent a complete list of parts and photographs of all the broken / damaged components. I haven't copied the photographs that were sent as part of the email so the headings as you roll down the page were the photo descriptions.



From: David Trask <djtrask71@gmail.com>
Date: 22 November 2014 1:17:58 am AEST
To: "lsmith@keithcraft.com" <lsmith@keithcraft.com>
Cc: David Trask <david@traskdevcorp.com.au>, djtrask71@gmail.com, David Kirkham <kirkhammotorsports@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Keith Craft Racing - Contact Message


Hi there,

I've finished doing the autopsy on my engine, it's a bit messy.

Going to need
full gasket kit don't forget that I need 2 inlet manifold gaskets. Exhaust manifold gasket.
Big end bearings as they are all chattered and marked.
Main crank bearings same as big ends all marked
1 piston
Front timing cover
Full set of exhaust valves I haven't got the valves out yet so not sure if inlets are bent. Probably best to replace them all.
Timing chain set and gears, can you guys supply one the sets that have the .250 journal. I've heard they are a lot stronger.
Stub cam journal bearings x2
Also I noticed that both heads have cracks and porosity and are leaking coolant into the exhaust ports. Can you replace these? Or is it easier for me to weld them and repair.

It appears as though the chain has snapped as a result of the right side cam not being timed correctly as there is valve marks to all Pistons which is not from the snapping of the chain.

The piston that I have to replace has about a .10-.15 thou score in the side of it as the stub cam bearing has been pressed into the block not square and a chunk of that bearing has broken off and gone through the engine which is what has scored all the bearings as well. Cam bearings appear to be okay.



This is the piston.





You can see the big groove in the stub cam bearing from the misalignment.




This the broken part of the bearing.





Broken chain.




Broken chain.




Broken front cover.





Valve marks to top of Pistons





Valves that have been hitting Pistons during operation.




Bent valves.



Crack in head.





Another of the porosity





If you could let me know ASAP a so I can start getting things arranged on this end for it to go back together it would be appreciated.

Many thanks for your help.
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  #146 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2015, 01:32 PM
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So Bill,

Any chance you could explain which part of these first 3 emails is me coming out with both guns blazing.

I couldn't even get a response to confirm that they had recieved my email for some weeks afterwards

I didn't receive any creditable answers on any of these emails till after Christmas despite sending emails enquiring if they had had a chance to assess my email information.
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  #147 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2015, 01:37 PM
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Here's a list of the emails I have sent and what has been responded too.


DT EMAIL TO KC, My first email to you on this matter was 11/10/14
KC EMAIL TO DT, email You responded and advised me to let you know what parts I needed 11/12/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance I responded acknowledging your request. 11/12/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance Photos of all damaged parts and parts list provided 11/22/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance Requested confirmation of email received 11/22/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance Requested confirmation of email receipt 11/26/14
KC TO DT, email from Lance confirmed receipt of email and forwarded to Keith for his comment 11/27/14. Including photos
DT TO KC, email to Lance acknowledging your email. 11/27/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance and Keith asking for a response 12/11/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance and Keith asking for a response 12/16/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance and Keith asking for a response 12/17/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance and Keith asking for a response 12/23/14
DT TO KC, TELEPHONE CALL spoke to Lance asking for a response 1/7/15 request by yourself to forward photos direct to Keith
DT TO KC, email to Lance confirming telephone conversation 1/7/15 and forwarding photos again
DT TO KC, email to Lance asking for different email address for Keith 1/9/15 because the email address supplied for Keith was incorrect.
KC TO DT, email from Lance saying KC was willing to help 1/10/15
DT TO KC, TELEPHONE CALL to Lance asking what’s going on 1/14/15
DT TO KC, email Keith and Lance forwarding parts list and pictures again as per your request after another telephone call 1/14/15
KC TO DT, email from Lance confirming Keith has been again forwarded all information. 1/14/15 and a copy of an email from Keith to Lance confirming that he wanted photos of all broken parts.
DT TO KC, email to Keith and Lance asking for a time frame on when I will get a response. 1/14/15
DT TO KC, email to Keith with parts list in response to Keith post on Cobra Forum. 2/4/15
KC TO DT, email from Lance confirming that Keith received parts list 2/4/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance confirming his response 2/4/15 and confirming that I have never had a direct response from Keith.
KC TO DT, email from Lance saying he thought I had been in contact with Keith. 2/4/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance stating that Keith has never responded to any emails. 2/5/15
KC TO DT, email from Lance confirming that Keith would have a response tomorrow. 2/5/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance confirming his response 2/5/15.
KC TO DT, email from Lance asking for more information on what happened and how was engine used. 2/7/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance explaining every detail of what occurred with engine. 2/7/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance asking for answers and update on where things were at 2/16/15
KC TO DT, email from Lance stating he would get back to me. 2/17/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance confirming his advice and requesting immediate response. 2/17/15
KC TO DT , email confirming will let me know asap. 2/17/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance asking where we are at 2/19/15



If you like Bill I can keep posting the rest of the emails too, there's not one where I have approached this the wrong way. I have simply tried to set out factually exactly what has occured and asked for their response.

Last edited by damage; 02-26-2015 at 01:40 PM..
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  #148 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2015, 01:44 PM
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Oh and btw if you think I'm the only one with a problem with that australian company not returning emails and super slow to supply parts paid for in advance why don't you go read all the threads in the owners group for that company.

Just because I choose to call some one out for crap service doesn't mean that I'm making it up.

Just means I grew a set of balls and won't cop this sort of crap
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  #149 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2015, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damage View Post
If you like Bill I can keep posting the rest of the emails too, there's not one where I have approached this the wrong way. I have simply tried to set out factually exactly what has occured and asked for their response.
Amen.

Oops, I better not say that word. I'm not supposed to take your words as "gospel".

Damage, BTW, the whole list of emails strikes me as being "erratic." Sometimes you email the engine builder on the same day, then 1 or 2 days apart and then even week or more at times. Very erratic behavior. No standard paterrn at all.

(sorry couldn't resist a little humor).
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  #150 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2015, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damage View Post
So Bill,

Any chance you could explain which part of these first 3 emails is me coming out with both guns blazing.

I couldn't even get a response to confirm that they had recieved my email for some weeks afterwards

I didn't receive any creditable answers on any of these emails till after Christmas despite sending emails enquiring if they had had a chance to assess my email information.
If they did not reply, shame on them they are wrong.
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  #151 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2015, 02:12 PM
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Damage,

I agree on calling someone out for poor service and I am sympathetic to your situation because it was just like mine with Jim Barillaro......poor service, no response, and not taking responsibility. The bottom line is that you have a significant money at risk and limited recourse. This does not even take into consideration all the grief you have had and that you are probably going to have to fix it on your own and foot the bill to do so. That is what happened to me. Not that it can be monetized to your advantage, but all this shows what Keith Craft is all about. This will do nothing to enhance his reputation as an engine builder and business person. You may want to find an attorney in his area to pursue him and motivate him to take care of the problem. He will quickly realize that you are not going away and the financial implications of inactivity.
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  #152 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2015, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RodKnock View Post
Amen.

Oops, I better not say that word. I'm not supposed to take your words as "gospel".

Damage, BTW, the whole list of emails strikes me as being "erratic." Sometimes you email the engine builder on the same day, then 1 or 2 days apart and then even week or more at times. Very erratic behavior. No standard paterrn at all.

(sorry couldn't resist a little humor).
There are two sides to every story. We have not heard the other side.
I'll admit it doesn't look good, but there is another side.

With that said we have not heard the other side of the Bill Cosby thing but would will not find me jumping to give him the benefit of a doubt.
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  #153 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2015, 02:29 PM
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Well said with respect to Bill Cosby. I have a read a lot of positive things about Keith Craft on this forum and I have also about other consumers having poor work come from his shop. What is happening to Damage falls in line with what I have heard elsewhere.
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  #154 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2015, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Detroit Bill View Post
If they did not reply, shame on them they are wrong.
OK, are you now on the RodKnock team?
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  #155 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2015, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by patrickt View Post
OK, are you now on the RodKnock team?
My team roster is full. No new players.

Located somewhere in every investment prospectus is the following phrase:

“Past performance does not guarantee future results.” Otherwise known as the "What have you done for me lately?" rule.

Just because McDonald's has served more than 20 Billion customers, doesn't make today's mistake acceptable in any way shape or form:

Cop Claims McDonald’s Served Him Toxic Tea

Some police officer asked for and bought a McDonald's iced tea and got heavy duty degreaser and spent the night in the hospital. So what if McDonald's has Billions of happy customers, which I have no way of ever understanding BTW.

Does it make this guy feel better?

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  #156 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2015, 03:05 PM
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This is the email from my engineer here in Australia.

"Sent: Tuesday, 24 February 2015 2:38 PM
To: David Trask
Subject: HEADS

Hello David,

Attached are photos of the heads with crack test die on them.
You can see on the welded exhaust port head that 3 of the exhaust ports have cracks(one with 2 cracks).
We pushed a scribe through on of the exhaust port walls(at the most 1mm thick).
On the back of the heads in near the rocker gear you can see that there are cracks coming from where the plugs are.
You can see, if you look carefully that one of the plug areas has been welded and polished off and still looks suspect(so they are aware of the problems).
The person who supplied the heads SHOULD 100% supply you with a new set of heads to replace this pair.(FREE OF CHARGE)
Not being rude to you but these heads are **** and have been patched up and unloaded onto you.
The people who did them would be fully aware of how bad they are!
They have been ported too much to suit the casting and have ended up thin.(being thin and having really bad porosity is not good either for down the track).
They need to have some heads ported .040” -.060” per side undersize or get better casting thickness.
Do you want to have a conversation with them before we continue?
The next step for us with the heads is to pressure test them to see if they are going to leak anywhere else apart from the cracks.(eg porosity holes)


Phil "


I have removed his company details deliberately as there is no need to involve him in this dispute.

This is my email to Keith Craft where I politely gave them a piece of my mind.

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 1:00 AM, David Trask <david@trask> wrote:

"Lance,

Once again no one has responded to me since our last email exchange on 19 February. I’m guessing this was deliberate so I didn’t show up at your workshop while I was in the US.

Please see the email below from the guy here in Australia who is helping me with all the crack testing and machine work that is required.

His email and the photos are self-explanatory, the heads that KC fitted to the engine are substandard (read this as **.

The work that KC did on the heads is poor quality and this has led to further failures. I’m not sure how it is that KC welding up heads on one side of the engine and not supplying port matched heads would be or could be considered a part suppliers problem. This is simply poor workmanship on behalf of KC.

I would like some answers immediately.

Just to remind you of how many times I have emailed you and your responses to date here is a complete outline of all communication on this to date.

DT EMAIL TO KC, My first email to you on this matter was 11/10/14
KC EMAIL TO DT, email You responded and advised me to let you know what parts I needed 11/12/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance I responded acknowledging your request. 11/12/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance Photos of all damaged parts and parts list provided 11/22/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance Requested confirmation of email received 11/22/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance Requested confirmation of email receipt 11/26/14
KC TO DT, email from Lance confirmed receipt of email and forwarded to Keith for his comment 11/27/14. Including photos
DT TO KC, email to Lance acknowledging your email. 11/27/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance and Keith asking for a response 12/11/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance and Keith asking for a response 12/16/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance and Keith asking for a response 12/17/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance and Keith asking for a response 12/23/14
DT TO KC, TELEPHONE CALL spoke to Lance asking for a response 1/7/15 request by yourself to forward photos direct to Keith
DT TO KC, email to Lance confirming telephone conversation 1/7/15 and forwarding photos again
DT TO KC, email to Lance asking for different email address for Keith 1/9/15 because the email address supplied for Keith was incorrect.
KC TO DT, email from Lance saying KC was willing to help 1/10/15
DT TO KC, TELEPHONE CALL to Lance asking what’s going on 1/14/15
DT TO KC, email Keith and Lance forwarding parts list and pictures again as per your request after another telephone call 1/14/15
KC TO DT, email from Lance confirming Keith has been again forwarded all information. 1/14/15 and a copy of an email from Keith to Lance confirming that he wanted photos of all broken parts.
DT TO KC, email to Keith and Lance asking for a time frame on when I will get a response. 1/14/15
DT TO KC, email to Keith with parts list in response to Keith post on Cobra Forum. 2/4/15
KC TO DT, email from Lance confirming that Keith received parts list 2/4/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance confirming his response 2/4/15 and confirming that I have never had a direct response from Keith.
KC TO DT, email from Lance saying he thought I had been in contact with Keith. 2/4/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance stating that Keith has never responded to any emails. 2/5/15
KC TO DT, email from Lance confirming that Keith would have a response tomorrow. 2/5/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance confirming his response 2/5/15.
KC TO DT, email from Lance asking for more information on what happened and how was engine used. 2/7/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance explaining every detail of what occurred with engine. 2/7/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance asking for answers and update on where things were at 2/16/15
KC TO DT, email from Lance stating he would get back to me. 2/17/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance confirming his advice and requesting immediate response. 2/17/15
KC TO DT , email confirming will let me know asap. 2/17/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance asking where we are at 2/19/15

I’ve been more then patient but my patience has run out.



Regards

David Trask
Managing Director


And this is Lances reply

"You would have been more then welcome to come by here while in the US. I would have encouraged it so you could see as many have that we are not a tiny hole in the wall operation with kids building engines. I have spoke with Keith every time I have received emails. I have asked you several times to please email Keith directly. I am stuck in the middle on the deal. All I can do is relay info to him and he has to make the call. I would love to make a call for you but at this time I am not in the position to be able to make these type decisions. The issue with the heads are the core shift in Coons casting s and the reason we no longer use his heads, we now use the Pond. Our cnc machined cuts off the same location every time locating off the head dowel. If it goes thru because of core shift all we can do is weld the heads and pressure test. We do not install without a pressure test off the engine and then inspect on the dyno. I hate that they may have formed a crack after heat cycles on the heads but they would not have been installed if they were leaking here. We have absolutely no desire for any customers to have any issues with our engine. I was able to get Keith to agree to supply front cover and entire timing assembly from Pond as we feel these are the best kits out at this time. Please send an address and I will have the parts drop shipped. Once again I apologize for the issues and wish I could have helped you get answers sooner. Thanks

Lance Smith
Ph 870-246-7460
Fx 870-246-7418
3157 Hwy 26 W
Arkadelphia, AR 71923"



Whilst I appreciate that Lance is making every effort or at least appears to be trying to help out the response from Keith (the company owner) is far from satisfactory as a timing cover and chains are at best about $1,000 worth of parts and not everything required to fix the motor.
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  #157 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2015, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damage View Post

And this is Lances reply:

"...The issue with the heads are the core shift in Coons castings and the reason we no longer use his heads, we now use the Pond...
Well, they're still advertising the Coon heads for sale as just heads separately or installed on their SOHC engines.

Again, if one goes back and reads the various FEForum threads on the Bill Coon saga, including lawsuits, his aluminum heads had porosity problems dating back to 2010-2011.

As I mentioned before, several years ago, I almost bought a set of Coon heads. But "reading the tea leaves", there was no way I was going to lay out $5,000-$6,000 (then machine and build them w/valves, probably another $2,500) for his problematic heads. Thank goodness.
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  #158 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2015, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
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I almost bought a set of Coon heads. But "reading the tea leaves",
Ah crap, I just realized my problem.

I don't drink tea so I didn't see the leaves.

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  #159 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2015, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
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Some police officer asked for and bought a McDonald's iced tea and got heavy duty degreaser and spent the night in the hospital.
I've had that. The McDegreaser.
You need it after a Big Mac and fries.
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  #160 (permalink)  
Old 02-27-2015, 01:17 PM
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Damage,

I am shocked that once it was realized that the heads had core shift problems that Keith Craft did not get another set that were right. Furthermore, why did he not inform you of what he found and what he did to try and rectify the problem? This is almost as ludicrous as when Barillaro installed bent valves in my motor and when we found the problem due to sticking valves when conducting a leak down test, he replied that he had that same problem with those valves before but since they were new he did not check them. I think that Barillaro and Keith Craft went to the same school of engine building.
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