Shelby CSX price increase!

[Excaliber]

CSX6000 say's,

...like my car. Replica? I think not.

Judge Walsh, trademark court, disagree's, would you like to appeal? In his written opinion, he found no distinctive difference between an FFR or a Shelby, both being "replica's". Inferring that all other replica manufacturers have the same status as well, that of "replica".

He did not address the value or workmanship of either marque, FFR, Shelby or any other replica on the market. He only addressed the legal status.

Is a Shelby more desireable than other replica's offered on the market because of it's brand name alone? That would be a valid assumption. It carries a terrific brand name and has a closer connection to history than other replica's. It often carries the highest respect within the market place. Market prices support the idea that a Shelby retains a higher re-sale value than other replica's on the market. The details of any given build could be argued and compared, but when the smoke has cleared they ALL have one thing in common, they are ALL replica's.

"Kit" cars essentially, all though the preferred term is "roller" in the case of a Shelby and other similiar builds. But somebody OTHER THAN the manufacturer (in any case), by Federal law, must complete the car. As it is "incomplete" when it leaves the factory, it begs the question, what is it? Roller? Kit? Replica? Shelby prefer's the word "Continuation", generally accepted by the masses, so perhaps it is becoming or has become valid? It's tricky though, as it can lead to confusion and increases the possibility of fraud, now and into the future. To suggest that it is a "real" Cobra because Shelby built it, crosses the line, in my opinion, from carefully hyped advertising term's to out right fraud.

The key being Shelby does not, cannot by Federal law, specify the end product details. Could be a Roush motor, small or big block, and a myriad of other details.

"Continuation" should be considered synonymous with the term replica, in Judge Walsh's opinion.

[RichardCSX6000]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

CSX6000 say's,


Judge Walsh, trademark court, disagree's, would you like to appeal? In his written opinion, he found no distinctive difference between an FFR or a Shelby, both being "replica's". Inferring that all other replica manufacturers have the same status as well, that of "replica".

He did not address the value or workmanship of either marque, FFR, Shelby or any other replica on the market. He only addressed the legal status.

Is a Shelby more desireable than other replica's offered on the market because of it's brand name alone? That would be a valid assumption. It carries a terrific brand name and has a closer connection to history than other replica's. It often carries the highest respect within the market place. Market prices support the idea that a Shelby retains a higher re-sale value than other replica's on the market. The details of any given build could be argued and compared, but when the smoke has cleared they ALL have one thing in common, they are ALL replica's.

"Kit" cars essentially, all though the preferred term is "roller" in the case of a Shelby and other similiar builds. But somebody OTHER THAN the manufacturer (in any case), by Federal law, must complete the car. As it is "incomplete" when it leaves the factory, it begs the question, what is it? Roller? Kit? Replica? Shelby prefer's the word "Continuation", generally accepted by the masses, so perhaps it is becoming or has become valid? It's tricky though, as it can lead to confusion and increases the possibility of fraud, now and into the future. To suggest that it is a "real" Cobra because Shelby built it, crosses the line, in my opinion, from carefully hyped advertising term's to out right fraud.

The key being Shelby does not, cannot by Federal law, specify the end product details. Could be a Roush motor, small or big block, and a myriad of other details.

"Continuation" should be considered synonymous with the term replica, in Judge Walsh's opinion.

With all due respect....I doubt the good Judge is really much of a Shelby expert, other than interpreting law verbage. I would much prefer to see what the real expert has to say...which follows.


"There's an exception when it comes to Jimmy Price and Lance Stander. Superformance International makes replica Cobras in South Africa and calls the two-seat roadster they build the MKIII. It's not a true Shelby, but I've endorsed and licensed the car for being as close to correct and well-built as possible."


- Carroll Shelby (Octane, Oct. 2006)

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by RichardCSX6000

"There's an exception when it comes to Jimmy Price and Lance Stander. Superformance International makes replica Cobras in South Africa and calls the two-seat roadster they build the MKIII. It's not a true Shelby, but I've endorsed and licensed the car for being as close to correct and well-built as possible."


- Carroll Shelby (Octane, Oct. 2006)

So using your example, why does he not also endorse ERA, and Kirkham as "being as close to correct and well-built as possible."

Oh, wait, I know why, because he is not getting paid to do so .


Yet, he still, at times, uses Kirkham to build chassis for his own continuation series offerings.

Finally, seeing that he is a "paid spokesman" for SPF, don't you think that he is no longer considered "subjective and fair" on the matter. Perhaps if he was not being paid, then his "expert testimony" would not be subject to such criticism.


Bill S.

[patrickt]

Bill, of course, sees the point that I was crawling (painfully slowly, I might add) to last night. Mr. Shelby can make any newly built car that bears a passing resemblance to the original cars of the 60's a "true, real, Shelby Cobra" just by saying it's so and having a relationship, albeit nothing more than financial, with the builders. That's all it takes -- and really, that's all you're getting. That, and a nicely built replica as well. Uhhh, usually nicely built, that is.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by RichardCSX6000

...Jimmy Price and Lance Stander. Superformance International makes replica Cobras in South Africa and calls the two-seat roadster they build the MKIII. It's not a true Shelby, but I've endorsed and licensed the car for being as close to correct and well-built as possible."
- Carroll Shelby (Octane, Oct. 2006)

What a crock that is-that title belongs only to the Kirkham. Statements like this are the reason he has zero credibility.
He will proclaim anything that makes him a bigger buck and his disciples will parrot that as gospel to the sheep.
It's all just BS.

[A-Snake]

[Excaliber]

ERA's and Kirkhams are indeed "genuine" Shelby Cobra replica's!

Beside's
...a rose, by any other name, would smell as sweet.

[Dimis]

I'm going to get flamed for this, but here goes anyway...

In my humble opinion & in all seriousness, I'd rather own a Kirkham (if alloy) or ERA (if glass) ahead of a "Shelby" Cobra any day of the week. This on principle alone.

I respect and credit Carroll Shelby for the foresight, and ingenuity of developing the concept at the time, but hat was over 50yrs ago... and in my humble opinion there are others who have developed and are doing it better than Shelby (and for less) at the moment.

I'm not saying that the CSX4 or 6 series are bad, I'd love one, given the chance. But I'd never pay as much for one. In my eyes they are worth less than the aforementioned. I'd opt for the others if it were my money.

Am I missing something?
Original isn't always best
Neither is the most expensive...
Why pay more for less?


When it comes time to put my money down I'll be looking at buying an "Original Kirkham" ...and hey, this being the 21st Century, I might even put a modern 427 engine in it... Like say an LS7, or a modular ford


Flame suit on!!

Best regards to all.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Dimis

In my humble opinion & in all seriousness, I'd rather own a Kirkham (if alloy) or ERA (if glass) ahead of a "Shelby" Cobra any day of the week.

Kirkham and ERA owners all agree with that statement. Most of us, had we wanted a new CSX car, would have bought one.

[Silverback51]

No flames here.

I pay for quality, not a name.

Originally Posted by Dimis

I'm going to get flamed for this, but here goes anyway...

In my humble opinion & in all seriousness, I'd rather own a Kirkham (if alloy) or ERA (if glass) ahead of a "Shelby" Cobra any day of the week. This on principle alone.

I respect and credit Carroll Shelby for the foresight, and ingenuity of developing the concept at the time, but hat was over 50yrs ago... and in my humble opinion there are others who have developed and are doing it better than Shelby (and for less) at the moment.

I'm not saying that the CSX4 or 6 series are bad, I'd love one, given the chance. But I'd never pay as much for one. In my eyes they are worth less than the aforementioned. I'd opt for the others if it were my money.

Am I missing something?
Original isn't always best
Neither is the most expensive...
Why pay more for less?


When it comes time to put my money down I'll be looking at buying an "Original Kirkham" ...and hey, this being the 21st Century, I might even put a modern 427 engine in it... Like say an LS7, or a modular ford


Flame suit on!!

Best regards to all.

[RichardCSX6000]

I rode Harleys all my life...even before I was cool. I notice now that everyone compairs their bikes to Harleys, they all try to look like a Harley, sound like a Harley, dress like Harley ridders and then tell everyone why they did not buy a Harley???

[Cashburn]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe original cars were completed in rolling chassis form and then received further mods and powertrains by another party. At no time did they sell them in multiple boxes etc.

A kit is a kit. A rolling chassis is a rolling chassis or "roller". A car is what is being sold in that auction.

If it comes from the man it is genuine. But only a car built in the 60's can be called vintage or original. The numbering system is enough to make that clarification. If you are confused, then you are in fact confused...

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Cashburn

If it comes from the man it is genuine.

... and, presumably, if it is licensed from the man it is just as genuine as well?

[Cashburn]

Originally Posted by patrickt

... and, presumably, if it is licensed from the man it is just as genuine as well?

No, it's licensed.

If this were a discussion on another product it would not be so difficult. How about a football jersey? There's original, genuine, licensed, and replicas...

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Cashburn

No, it's licensed.

If this were a discussion on another product it would not be so difficult. How about a football jersey? There's original, genuine, licensed, and replicas...

But "the man" has no more day-to-day involvement in building CSX cars than SPF cars. Why can he not lend his name to one and have it have the same effect as the other?

[Stentor]

Originally Posted by patrickt

But "the man" has no more day-to-day involvement in building CSX cars than SPF cars. Why can he not lend his name to one and have it have the same effect as the other?

Pat,

I think you are onto something. There might be a huge arbitrage opportunity for you with this. Vis-a-vis the Shelby CSX price increase, you could buy up as many new SPF rollers (or "kits"--if Ernie is reading this) as possible, and then sell them on the market at $5k below the new Shelby price for CSX cars (positioning the SPFs as "authentic" Cobras that are licensed by Shelby).

You could probably sell the SPFs at the same price as the CSXs if you added dual roll bars with that authentic-style foam padding!

[Cashburn]

Originally Posted by patrickt

But "the man" has no more day-to-day involvement in building CSX cars than SPF cars. Why can he not lend his name to one and have it have the same effect as the other?

Under the skin bro... pretty simple really. Name the 5 top criteria that make it genuine... I bet the guy has more than anyone else.

Should encourage him to build cars instead of lawsuits.

It's all good and a better approach. Most of this is simple posturing by owners of kits to put theirs higher on the food chain.

[Dominik]

Excaliber, the german Shelby "dealers" are even worse.

Worse in a way that they actually don't know better. Recently a car was offered as one out of only three CSX4000 ever with supercharger. The distinction "Shelby" and "60s" was used ignorantly in the ad for potential clients to assume it's a 60s supercharged CSX for €198.500

Well, if I orders 27 today then there will be 30 only with supercharger. And I wonder if Shelby actually has dealers in Gemany, or is they are self appointed because they once learned how to spell Carroll.

[Dominik]

I actually got so annoyed with this ad in Germany that I translated the main parts (and THIS is giving the whole Shelby enterprise AND Superformance a bad, ignorant and unprofessional name in Europa - since years):


"Original Shelby Cobra with CSX4000 VIN aluminum body and supercharger...!! This car is considered to be the ultimate investment featuring meticulously maintained condition (413km on th clock...).

There were only 3 supercherged Cobras built by Carroll Shelby worldwide.
Original Shelby 427FE aluminum race-engine with supercharger and more than 725Hp...
Original Shelby VIN plate. This car is an absolute rarity signed by Carroll Shelby...
Since 2008 ist the company CAR the sole exclusive Shelby and Superformance dealer for Europe...."

[Excaliber]

We cannot always rely on the strict definition of words or terms, as they tend to change over time and with use.

Example being the term, "replica", very few "Cobra's" meet the strict definiton of the word, which is an exacting replication of an original. And yet, we frequently use the term "replica" to describe our cars, even if they have a GM engine under the hood! Fair enough.

"Kit" may fall under a similiar troubling definition, certainly it seems to carry a negative connotation. "Roller" seems to be the "new term on the block", along with "continuation", both are fitting and accurate as it pertains to several different models, BDR being one.

Never the less, I won't rule out the term "kit", as what ever replica it is, it is not complete from the originating factory and some assembly is still required to finish it. Some "kits" are just more complete than others...

What Shelby did in the 60's was not a "kit", not a "roller", not a "replica", certainly not a "continuation". It was a Federally approved complete vehicle leaving the Shelby factory as a fully assembled and ready to drive vehicle. Much like the Series 1 was supposed to be. A modern Shelby in every sense of the word, no "clarification" of what it was, was required, back in the day or with the modern Series 1 edition.

The Cobra, ANY Cobra being built today, needs a LOT of clarification. A lengthy discussion to determine where it fit's within the market place, it's heritage, it's birth right. BDR is no exception to that "law" (call it "Ernies Law").