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Kirkham Motorsports

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  #161 (permalink)  
Old 05-25-2020, 04:49 AM
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Autocross is a very safe way to drive quickly. Nothing but plastic cones to hit, worst damage is scuffed paint. Of course you could damage your engine, clutch or other things but with rev limiters that is unlikely too. The sort of average one minute or less run time limits the need for conditioning and old guys can compete heads up with youngsters.
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  #162 (permalink)  
Old 05-25-2020, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olddog View Post

So that leaves "why do this with a Chevy engine when there are many roads to get there with Ford engines?

I suspect the answer is:
I know Chevy engines.
My budy, who does the work, knows Chevy engines.
Everyone I know uses Chevy engines.
I can buy a junkyard Chevy cheap.
Olddog,

If I may, can you kindly quell for me this paradox then.

GMs LS7 is a legitimate "427", which some may argue is a more authentic moniker than say the title "Ford". After all, the "car" wasn't made by Ford. (Shock! Horror! I know...) They (ford) merely stuffed it with thier engines, no?

Since then the car is equally (some may argue more so) known as a "427 Cobra", as compared to a "Ford Cobra". Trade marks not withstanding.

Do you protest the use of GMs LS7 with the same vigor?
They are the only readily available factory 427 crate engine, come with gobs of power, are compact and have awesome internals (including titanium) bits and pieces.

Would that not be a more fitting motor than many of the Ford variants you listed above?
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  #163 (permalink)  
Old 05-25-2020, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimis View Post
Olddog,

If I may, can you kindly quell for me this paradox then.

GMs LS7 is a legitimate "427", which some may argue is a more authentic moniker than say the title "Ford". After all, the "car" wasn't made by Ford. (Shock! Horror! I know...) They (ford) merely stuffed it with thier engines, no?

Since then the car is equally (some may argue more so) known as a "427 Cobra", as compared to a "Ford Cobra". Trade marks not withstanding.

Do you protest the use of GMs LS7 with the same vigor?
They are the only readily available factory 427 crate engine, come with gobs of power, are compact and have awesome internals (including titanium) bits and pieces.

Would that not be a more fitting motor than many of the Ford variants you listed above?
No, it would not.
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  #164 (permalink)  
Old 05-25-2020, 05:40 AM
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Quote:
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Olddog,

After all, the "car" wasn't made by Ford. (Shock! Horror! I know...) They (ford) merely stuffed it with thier engines, no?
That was Shelby wasn't it? Not Ford.
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  #165 (permalink)  
Old 05-25-2020, 09:50 AM
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As I understand the history. AC Bristol manufactured the car, minus drive train. They shipped it to Shelby LLC. Ford shipped the drive train to Shelby LLC. Shelby LLC finished assembly of the car. Shelby LLC shipped the final car to Ford or directly to Ford dealers, where they were sold to the public. This is more or less the outline.

Who paid who what and when, I have no clue. What tweaks Shelby made to the Ford parts, or the car, for that matter, I have no clue. What other parts Shelby put into the car, like radiator, headers, side pipes, etc., again I have no clue. What I do know is it was not a Chevy engine.
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  #166 (permalink)  
Old 05-25-2020, 10:07 AM
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Engine displacement is not paramount in deciding what engine belongs in any car. Due to NASCAR rules back in the day, almost every manufacturer had a 427 +/- engine.

So an original Cobra has an original engine in it. The small block cars came with 260 cid and 289 cid engines, while the 427 Cobra came with 427 side oilers and 428 center oiler engines. Now on a rebuild the cylinders are bored 0.020" over. The engine is now a few Cubic Inches larger than it was originally. I do not think anyone would argue that the original engine is no longer the original engine because the cid is different.

So in short a factory LS engine of 427 cid does not belong in a Cobra more so than a 427 FE side oiler that is bored and stroked to 482 cid. Cid is not that important. Certainly not as important as the engine family, like an FE.

Last I looked, Ford racing sells Windsor 427 cid engines. They are everywhere. So you do not have to go to Chevy to get a 427 cid engine. This is not a valid reason to put a Chevy engine in a Cobra.
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  #167 (permalink)  
Old 05-25-2020, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olddog View Post
As I understand the history. AC Bristol manufactured the car, minus drive train. They shipped it to Shelby LLC. Ford shipped the drive train to Shelby LLC. Shelby LLC finished assembly of the car. Shelby LLC shipped the final car to Ford or directly to Ford dealers, where they were sold to the public. This is more or less the outline.
.
Correct. Ford was only a component supplier and marketing participant. They did not manufacture Cobras. Shelby is the official manufacturer.
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  #168 (permalink)  
Old 05-26-2020, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olddog View Post
Engine displacement is not paramount in deciding what engine belongs in any car. Due to NASCAR rules back in the day, almost every manufacturer had a 427 +/- engine.

So an original Cobra has an original engine in it. The small block cars came with 260 cid and 289 cid engines, while the 427 Cobra came with 427 side oilers and 428 center oiler engines. Now on a rebuild the cylinders are bored 0.020" over. The engine is now a few Cubic Inches larger than it was originally. I do not think anyone would argue that the original engine is no longer the original engine because the cid is different.

So in short a factory LS engine of 427 cid does not belong in a Cobra more so than a 427 FE side oiler that is bored and stroked to 482 cid. Cid is not that important. Certainly not as important as the engine family, like an FE.

Last I looked, Ford racing sells Windsor 427 cid engines. They are everywhere. So you do not have to go to Chevy to get a 427 cid engine. This is not a valid reason to put a Chevy engine in a Cobra.
Except that it is a better engine!!!
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  #169 (permalink)  
Old 05-26-2020, 07:35 AM
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The difference between a 427 Ford (FE) and 427 Chevy is about 200 NASCAR wins...
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  #170 (permalink)  
Old 09-07-2021, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by peterpjb View Post
its the same money to fix a Kirkham or an original after an accident ...
Just fly one of the Kirkham guys to your house for a week or so....
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  #171 (permalink)  
Old 09-07-2021, 03:15 PM
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Chevy? Blasphemy! Maybe a Buick/Rover V8.
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  #172 (permalink)  
Old 09-07-2021, 04:08 PM
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AC has a nice Superblower model with a 6.2 LSA
It has a COB serial number
LS7/570 is perfect go for it, factory approved
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  #173 (permalink)  
Old 09-08-2021, 08:51 AM
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Actually according to one book Shelby originally wanted to put a Chevy engine in the car but Chevrolet didn't want any competition against the Corvette.

But seeing what's out there with the wood dashes and high back seats and chrome wheels, I guess it's okay to stick anything in there.
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  #174 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2021, 07:31 AM
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After considering all the shady stuff ol shel did I would not be surprised if he never paid for any of the engines.
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  #175 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2021, 09:25 AM
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The setup was Ford collected when they sold them for the parts they supplied to Shelby. It’s in his book I think, I read it somewhere. Here in the 405 they are putting 632 BB Chevys in everything. Would not be surprised if one ended up in a Cobra
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  #176 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2021, 10:15 PM
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One nice thing about the 427 Windsor is, it would follow the lines of what is considered the last of the real Cobra's, the AC289. I have read where people that drove most and even one that drove all the variants of the Cobra, 260, 289, Daytona, 427, 428 and Cooper King Cobra, and most of them considered the AC289 the best handling. These were of course, the big block bodies and chassis, with the 289 engine. Imagine the light weight engine, putting out more horse power then the 428 and probably the 427! Cobra badge on the nose, not correct, but several have been retrofitted, AC badge on the boot, and ford badges on the sides, if you want, not originally installed by AC. You will be the only one where ever you go.
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  #177 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2021, 10:21 PM
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The engine Carrol wanted first was the Buick aluminum V8. Fun fact, at about the same time Shelby was standing on top of Pikes Peak, for The Race To The Clouds, talking to GM reps, Derek Hurlock was also talking to Buick, trying to get their engine for his AC Ace cars. Neither new that there was a third party who wanted the engine, that was of course Rover and we all know what happened next! Talk about several forks in the rode that history could have taken!
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  #178 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2021, 04:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harpoon PV2 View Post
The engine Carrol wanted first was the Buick aluminum V8. Fun fact, at about the same time Shelby was standing on top of Pikes Peak, for The Race To The Clouds, talking to GM reps, Derek Hurlock was also talking to Buick, trying to get their engine for his AC Ace cars. Neither new that there was a third party who wanted the engine, that was of course Rover and we all know what happened next! Talk about several forks in the rode that history could have taken!
This is the first time I have heard this one.
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  #179 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2021, 07:58 AM
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Henry Ford II had a factory pumping out small and big blocks, Lee Iacocca had the Mustang going and by 1966 Ford made over a billion dollars profit. Ford was dealing with fixing the Edsel image, Henry’s son was Edsel II, and Lee could sell anything. The Cobra was an answer to their prayers. Talk about timing. To the thread topic tho a 302 for me but I just looked an LS1 Sebring and I gotta admit, ya that would be sweet
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  #180 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2021, 09:10 AM
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I think I have stated before on this post that Shelby was a "racer" as was Porsche! They both liked Automobiles and performance. They were both masters of seeing what could be.
Shelby did not have the vision of design from scratch that Porsche had but understood how to assemble the right parts from off the shelf to obtain the performance he was after!

Shelby would have used any mfg's parts (and did) to reach his goal. We forget how many different car mfgs he raced for in his career. Speed and winning was all that mattered to Ol Shel!

I will point out that an original is original only once! Every copy thereafter is just a copy. Even his Cobra cars were copies with varying parts and changes to the configuration of the 1st one. He changed them because he saw ways to improve them, was not able to obtain parts or needed to deliver a car now to maintain the company.

Try to remember each of us making "our vision" of a Cobra is doing exactly the same thing. We have preferences of components and availability of parts (due to cost and what is on hand). Otherwise we would all be bidding on the handful of originals and not "replicas" would exist. And many of the "replicas" today outperform the originals, in handling, acceleration, and reliability.

Thom
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