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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2006, 07:25 PM
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Default Butler Cobra & Mustang II IFS

I’ve never been happy with the MGB IFS in the Butler Cobra. And I’m not too keen on any upgrade modifications that retain the old King-Pin technology. This displeasure is preventing me from finishing the car. Yes I know I'm nuts!

So before I bite the bullet and spend the cash to build a custom, fully adjustable IFS, based on the proven Mustang II, I’m looking for support and suggestions either way. What do you guys/gals think? Does the MGB setup do justice to the car? Or if you had the option, would you swap it for a new tech system that will bolt right in to replace the MGB?

Would appreciate all comments.

Thanks,

Arthur

Last edited by lal Naja; 12-10-2006 at 04:28 PM..
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Old 11-30-2006, 08:06 PM
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The front suspension has been keeping me from completing my Arntz for a while now. Well, actually the front suspension, rear suspension, body, drivetrain, other projects, wife, work, etc have been preventing me from working on the Arntz. I did buy a complete '86 Corvette front suspension that I was planning on building a custom subframe for like rat_rod_russell is building. See this post for his pictures rat_rod_russell . I know that Tom Howland has put C4 Corvette suspension on the front of his Arntz; he's my the inspiration. Here's his gallery Tom's Gallery
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Old 12-01-2006, 07:27 PM
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cdcofer, thanks for the kind words. My front clip was built to slide into the existing frame rails.

Just to the left of the oil pan is the new joint of the old level frame and the new angled frame.


I inverted this picture so you can see the frame in the correct position. The level pieces to the left slide into the old frame. The radiator sits between the wide level pieces to the right.


Arthur, I was never happy with the MGB suspension. The new suspension performs 100% better. Rat_rod_Russell has done a better job of fabing the a-arms to the frame. He put them at the correct front to rear angle where as mine are level. That angle would change the castor with wheel rise and fall. I don't know what difference that would make.
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Old 12-01-2006, 09:59 PM
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Default got another one in the Queue

Arthur, Tom,
If either of you run across a decent rod/custom shop in California who's experienced, available, reasonably priced, and willing to do a Mustang II or C4 front-end changeover on another Arntz/MGB front end on a Cobra, please let me know so I can pass it along to a friend looking to do same type conversion on his Cobra. I wish I could help him but just don't have the time, so I thought I'd put a post here for him on CC just in case someone comes to mind.
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Old 12-03-2006, 07:25 PM
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Default Butler Cobra with Mustang II IFS

cdcofer, Thanks for the status report on your Cobra and the links. I'm leaning towards the Mustang II as there are tons of after-market Mustang II components available at reasonable prices + you can buy upgrades like: larger brake rotors, multi piston calipers, etc. etc.

Tom, Great job on your IFS. Did the track width change? Any problem with connecting the steering column?
FYI the angle mounting of the upper wishbone is for Anti-Dive characteristics. The angle is about 3 + - degrees higher in the front. It prevents the nose from diving down under hard braking forces. The engineering on anti-dive is complex and involves vector force calculations. And it seems that the 3 degree incline does the trick.

Duane, I don't know of anyone who has done a Mustang II for the Butler Cobra. I'm here on the Forum looking for that. Unique Cobra has a system ($3,230.00) that they say should bolt up to the Butler and I understand that the design/geometry is based on the original AC Cobra. I don't know if Unique takes into consideration the bottom radiator hose of the Butler, but I'm sure they can answer that and other issues.

I'm going to try to find the time to take a serious look at designing a replacement IFS using Mustang II components that will bolt directly to the Butler chassis. If and when I get it done and it works, I'll post it here.

Regards,

Arthur
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Old 12-03-2006, 08:14 PM
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Arthur,
Did Unique send you any pics of what they offer?

I'm pretty familiar with their front ends as I had mine in out/of my last Cobra a few times which was a Unique, replacing the springs/shocks to a better setup than the Carrera's they offered back then, and playing with the mounts a bit to try and make them stronger... It was like a tubular Mustang II type setup, with their own bushing/mount system on the uppers and and something similar on the bottom. I'll have to call them and see what they are offering. Haven't spoke with the Weavers in a while... On my last Unique it was a giant bolt-in setup with a complete lower cross member tube mounted butted up to the front frame rails, whereas i think my friends is a lower half subframe that splits apart on his Arntz. I'll call them and see what they have. Thanks for the tip...
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Old 12-03-2006, 08:42 PM
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Arthur, Yes the front track did change. I’m about 3 inches wider. I think the fabricator for the front clip did not take into account the set back difference from Corvette wheels and regular wheels. I am thinking of changing the spindles or hubs if possible to reduce the 3 inches. I am running old BFG’s that are 25.5 inches in diameter, which hit the rear of the left wheel well when turning left. I can live with it now but I need new tires and all the tires I like are 26.5 inches in diameter.
The new angle on the Sweet steering rack necessitated grinding on the u-joint to allow it to rotate. Other than that it worked out OK. Same location.
Thanks for the info on Anti-Dive, I wondered about that.
Good luck on your IFS, it sounds like a good way to go.
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Old 12-04-2006, 10:20 AM
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Tom, how did you insert the photos in the body of your message? Arthur
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Old 12-04-2006, 10:23 AM
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Duane, I just posted a photo to my gallery of the Unique IFS. Take a look and let me know if it's what you have, Arthur
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Old 12-04-2006, 10:39 AM
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Arthur,
open my photo gallery and click on a picture to enlarge it. Look below the picture in "photo details". In the box UBBCode is a web address that starts with and ends with "img" with brackets. You can use any photo from any web site if the img is before and after the photo address. Paste that in your text and the photo will show up. For a test, copy one of my photo UBBCode's and paste it.
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Old 12-15-2006, 05:58 PM
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Tom,

Since I breakfasted with you guys, I've done a few things! I'm in the middle of a "body off" retoration. Laborious to the max---plus I'm rebuilding my house and boat. Krikeys!

Ial,

I noticed that the Unique still refers to itself as an MGB suspension. I am innocently curious of what it is such an improvement over Ron Butler's front end. My co-Butler friend, Mike Follick races his Butler with the Ron Butler front IRS. I would really welcome input on this, as I have a virtually new Butler IRS sitting there. If it makes a lot of sense (driving ease, pleasure) to switch to the Unique IRS, let me know.

Thanks,
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Old 12-21-2006, 01:22 PM
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Freddie,
Good to hear from you. Hey, could you show us some pictures of Ron's latest IFS. Then maybe someone can post a picture of Unique's IFS. It would be great to see the difference.
Thanks,
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Old 12-21-2006, 06:44 PM
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This I will do. It's sitting on the floor of my friend's basement (doing a body-off)---but just for now, I can tell you that it isn't really a new "Mark" or model. It was just brand new (never used). It DID have 4 (or 6?) pot WILWOODS, which I think is the only mod. I am putting a fat anti-roll on the rear.

Before I post the photos*, let me ask you Tom and others with non-Butler front ends what the driving difference is. Is it flatter cornering, tighter (quicker) turn in or general ride---or all three. I am VERY interested in this. Here's why: a local Butler owner has an old front end. He's interested in the new one I have. If I find (from you) that it's a tremendous difference, I may consider going with a Corvette type. I may "launch" my car in April with the new Butler MGB---tehn in a few years switch. Depends.

*I gotta take some and then figure how to do the enclosures. This dang tech stuff evades me (being an artist and a sailor)-plus a flippin' Luddite to boot!

Merry Christmas. I still recall that GREAAT cobra breakfast!
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Old 12-21-2006, 08:34 PM
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I would be very curious as to all the findings ...I have a Butler and I really like the front end set up...I dont have alot to compare to I guess but hey if it was good enough for Ron its good enough for me. And I guess if money wasnt a issue I would look at anything but hey ....Im not rich
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Old 12-22-2006, 07:02 PM
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Scufty,
I'm in the same boat. I am burning what's left of my Butler Budget on an engine rebuild (doing a lot of that recently) and a "body off" resto with a guy who doesn;t charge a lot and who has won several car shows. He's also a former engine-builder. So, if my new (unused) Butler front end is less than desirable, I am going to be stuck with it. I'm not racing the car and am simply going to put some long miles on it. Ron DID recommend the rear anti-sway to go with the giganta front one. He also set up my Aldens. The car still sucks up bumps without a bother, but is a lot less "tilty". I have NOT tried it with the rear anti-roll bar yet.

I'll keep posting as time rolls by and my car nears completion. Boy! The previous owners had a) built it wrong and b) not done any improvements on it---even to the point of maintenance! I'm in the midst of a "rescue" job. It'll be A-1 when we're done though.

I would STILL like to hear of what the Corvette or Unique fronts do to/for the handling, however.
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Old 12-23-2006, 10:00 PM
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Freddie,
My new IFS is 100% better. The old MGB IFS had a violent left to right twitch when letting off the gas in a hard cornering situation. I did not try to sort it out. I knew a guy who could fab a new front clip with Corvette parts. If I did it over I would not use Corvette parts. I’d spend more time on correct geometry and custom A-arms. I am really happy with the way the car handles. I am not a racecar driver. I do not drive the car on a track. I have coil over shocks with 500# springs and no sway bar. The car drives like a slot car, no lean. On a side note, the rear has 4 Aldens and a sway bar. I am not saying MGB IFS cannot be made to work correctly. I just did not spend time on it. The key words here are “sorting it out.” I had two “professionals” work on the car. One to fab the clip and one to install it. After having the car home for 6 months I cut the suspension loose and moved it forward 1 1/2 inches. To this day I am still sorting it out. What makes it ok is I like working on the car.
Show us some pictures of your project.
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Old 12-24-2006, 08:53 AM
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Tom,

Was that violent twitch SYMMETRICAL--i.e., did it go right-to-left also? Believe it or not, I put over 3700 miles on the Butler BEFORE I decided to fix it up. During those miles, I was using the old "Butlerized" MGB front and it didn't do that---even thogh I was "exploring the limits" (mine and the cars!).

I DO know that front-mid-engined cars can be a tad "tail happy" especially in a trailing-throttle- oversteer situation, but what you describe is clearly different and sounds more serious/exciting! Oddly enuff, I didn't experience it with the old f/e but if it occurs with the new one.........well "out with the new...in with the NEWER"! Ar-ar.

As to posting pictures, well, you met me. Need any wood split....manually? Truth be told, Tom, if you needed cheering up or just a plain old belly-larf-----I'd send you a DVD of me trying to use the scanner and all that "indoor techy stuff"-----it is just plain embarassing. I can drive like hell and have the tickets to prove it, but, this compooooootah stuff.

And, by the way, if you need a massive sherpa to carry your tool-box out to Hawaii, I'm tanned, rested, etc. Ar-ar. That WAS you going out there to fix a guy's Jeep or something, wasn't it?

Merry Christmas.

PS if you e-mail me your snail-mail address (again, no doubt), I will send you some pichahs of me fairing the Butler's butt, yanking the engine or assessiong the frame (it's colossally strong, true and square---as is yours, no doubt). Oh (PPS)--I'm moving the body forward 1.5 inches and a tad to the right, just to center everything. I yam also creating gobs of space for the feet by reshaping the footwell----you KNOW how much room Butler stole for those auto trannies!
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Old 12-25-2006, 01:13 PM
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Freddie,
No, it was not symmetrical. Two left hand turns and one right hand turn while driving. All incidences were left, right, and then left movement. I have a little bit of under steer now, which seems correctable with an increase in throttle.
I ended up not working on the jeep.
I have also entertained the thought of making the trans tunnel smaller. Right now that’s too much work.
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Old 01-17-2007, 10:48 PM
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Well guys, after much consideration, I'm taking the plunge. I've started building a level table for my Butler. I love everything about my car, except the IFS, so I'm going to give it a new one. I hope it will be one deserving of the car.

I do not want to cut-off any parts from the chassis. I want it to be a bolt-on application and able to put the MGB back on. I may do that sometime in the future for yucks, as I have a completely rebuilt MGB ready to go.

After the table is done, I will put the car on it, take all measurements: At the correct height. then proceed to the next step. I will keep you posted with photos and comments.

Regards,

Arthur

Last edited by lal Naja; 01-17-2007 at 10:50 PM..
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Old 01-17-2007, 11:16 PM
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On the opposite end of the spectrum, we are taking a completely different approach on a friends car. Just today a decision was made to gut all the MGB stuff down to the bare rails and get rid of all of it. The idea is to chop/modify/insert an entire aluminum Corvette C4 front subframe and suspension; including a modified cross member with a different rack. Laying out the plan with our fabricator friend now. Should know something more in a few months if we take the plunge. Sort of got sidetracked into doing this while building a Lister/Dragon and seeing other options. We'll see...
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