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Old 09-03-2015, 11:31 PM
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Default Breakign down EFI options

Over the winter it looks like I may be making some changes to my motor. I have a dart block 427 windsor and I understand that in the future if I ever were to consider fuel injection that my motor would need an appropriate camshaft ect. I'm local to FAST in Memphis TN so I have been reading quite a few articles and trying to feel my way through the options and educate myself. Looking for any experiences that people may have had. The interest in EFI would be to improve the streetability of the car......throttle response, cranking, MPG......nothing out of the ordinary.

*TB setup such as FAST EZ-EFI-2.0- this seems to be the least expensive option but does look like it has alot of options and would probably suite the needs of the majority. I'm not really sold on the self learning aspect.

*Multi-Port with FAST XFI- I don't seem to find as much information on these setups but it appears this is a do it all setup. Price is higher than the throttle body EFI setup. This system looks like it can do either the self learning or self tuning. When does one make the jump from a EFI throttle body setup to a multi-port and what does it offer?

*Inglese style stack injection- I think this is only offered with the FAST EZ-EFI-2.0 but maybe the FAST XFI is an option. Is this basically a multi-port setup wrapped up in a cool vintage look?
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Old 09-04-2015, 03:40 AM
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Default Do you have a couple of hours???

Ace23 I would take me a couple of hours to type all the info.
I will give you a quick info and if you want more, call in the evening
EZ fast will do a self learning if the specs in the ECU are within 8-10% of what the car needs to run correctly, They give you a basic line to get the car running after that, some re close and others need a tuner for getting into the ball park. TB system is basic, uses 4 injectors in a TB, It's just like a carb. Only different is no choke. Power wise, you loss a little with this setup over a carb.
Multi port, alot depends on the ECU and what options it has. The better ones have sequiental fuel injector firing at low rpms under about 3,000rpms. Up side better drivability. Over 3,000 rpms some systems go to batch fire or bank to bank. There is no real different in power. With MUlti you can adjust injector pulse and each cylinder timing to get max power from all cylinders. Here again you need a pro tuner. I run this system with a dry manifold that has been ported and polished. There is only a small air to fuel mix area on the top of the head and intake valve. This system keeps valves clean with a injector pulse cleaning any carbon or oil build up on the valves. I have a Speed pro which went to FAST. 18 years old and no problems with system. Problem was finding a speed shop with this under standing on their system. I would recommend this system.
Last system, 8 stack that works like a Weber setup. I have one going on my last motor, a 498 shelby with a TWM 58 mm intake and throttle bodys. With the correct camshaft a 20-60 HP different will happen in mid range of the motor. Up side, Looks cool popping the hood. WOW factor off the charts. Down side, Clearance under the hood, Getting clean air to the back 2 cylinders, Dirty air of debrie flying around. You will need air screens or filter to keep out debrie, couple hundred dollars alone. You will need a steady vacuum for both the fuel regulator and the map sensor on the motor. Some systems you need to make your own. Getting the throttle body linkage to work all together. You will need an Air meter that sits on the inlet of each throttle body to adjust air flow into that cylinder. You will need either 1 or 2 O2 sensors for the computor. Fuel system, 3/8" supply line and 5/16" return line to tank. No aluminum lines, not safe and crack over time. Alot of states will not pass car for road if lines aluminum. Plastic or steel only. Fuel pump, I like mine in gas tank, need to modify tank. Fuel pump flow, I have 2 255l. pumps on different curcuits. Backup when racing, can swap over if 1 pump fails. This system will give flow for 800 hp with each pump. Need a fuel pressure regulator and vacuum source. At idle I like about 35-37 psi. Cruising it goes to 45 psi and is solid. Injector size, I started with a 452 motor and went to 55 pound injectors, The motor was to be supercharged, Reason for larger injectors. I have need no problem with the TB setup. No black smoke on accelleration. The duty cycle or how long the injector is turned on at 6,000 rpms is only 58%. In the old days when FI started, idea was small injectors, high duty cycles of 80-99% and higher fuel pressures. That has changed over the years to big injectors like 50's for SB motors and 72's for anything over 400 cubes. There is less pulsing of fuel pump in system, steadier pressure, less heating on injectors. The injectors use the fuel to cool them down. Wierd. It works. Less stress on the injector drivers with a shorter pulse to injectors extends the live of the ECU. Price on this system is high. If you have depth pockets, it's your call.
I run a small air clearner for a boat on my car and everything stays clean and protected. I will have TWM setup a screen kit for my throttle bodies when the time comes.
That's a short story, if you want to talk more, call me 7322543536 in the evening. I'm in NJ.
No matter which system you might go with, make sure that FAST installs the correct motor specs and firing order for your motor. I had this problem. Told them a 452 FE ford motor and got the info for a 454 BBchevy motor what a mess this was to figure out and cost. Rick L.
I didn't cover camshafts, compression of motor, and most important EXHAUST SYSTEM of side pipes and back pressure. This is a big thing with our side pipes. Power loss can be from 5 hp to 70 hp. depending on size of pipe, internal muffler size, size of header pipes. Too big is just as bad as too small. What other wor was done to the motor as far as head or intake porting and gasket matching between intake and head? Again more info needed. You see why there is a couple of hours needed for this. Last note, avoid using rubber fuel lines. The ethetol in the gas eats rubber lines over the years, If luck you get about 5-8 years. The rubber ends up a little rubber balls, location depends on amount of damage to car and fuel system. 2 good fuel filters with 8-10 micros are needed for protection. I have short hoses between fuel pump mount housing and pump outlets to system. both lines rotten out. Fuel filters saved system.
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Old 09-04-2015, 03:26 PM
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I have an Eight Stack system but can't comment on anything other than looks because I have not ran the motor. I'm still working on the wiring.

Ace have you talked to Wayne?

He sells a lot of different systems. I did buy my ECU from him.

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Old 09-04-2015, 07:36 PM
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I have FAST multi-port sequential system with a throttle body. I love it. I had to throw a grand at it to finally get it tuned properly, but that's EFI. Cubic dollars. I'm not a big believer in the EZ systems, although a modest Windsor build will probably be just fine. When you're talking big blocks with hairy cams, I personally believe there's no substitute for a FAST XFI or similar system. When you move on to an independent runner system like Inglese or similar system, EZ self learning is NOT an option. It'll take a real expert and a chassis dyno to get it right. But in the end, it's worth it.
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Old 09-04-2015, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RICK LAKE View Post
Ace23 I would take me a couple of hours to type all the info.
I will give you a quick info and if you want more, call in the evening
EZ fast will do a self learning if the specs in the ECU are within 8-10% of what the car needs to run correctly, They give you a basic line to get the car running after that, some re close and others need a tuner for getting into the ball park. TB system is basic, uses 4 injectors in a TB, It's just like a carb. Only different is no choke. Power wise, you loss a little with this setup over a carb.
Multi port, alot depends on the ECU and what options it has. The better ones have sequiental fuel injector firing at low rpms under about 3,000rpms. Up side better drivability. Over 3,000 rpms some systems go to batch fire or bank to bank. There is no real different in power. With MUlti you can adjust injector pulse and each cylinder timing to get max power from all cylinders. Here again you need a pro tuner. I run this system with a dry manifold that has been ported and polished. There is only a small air to fuel mix area on the top of the head and intake valve. This system keeps valves clean with a injector pulse cleaning any carbon or oil build up on the valves. I have a Speed pro which went to FAST. 18 years old and no problems with system. Problem was finding a speed shop with this under standing on their system. I would recommend this system.
Last system, 8 stack that works like a Weber setup. I have one going on my last motor, a 498 shelby with a TWM 58 mm intake and throttle bodys. With the correct camshaft a 20-60 HP different will happen in mid range of the motor. Up side, Looks cool popping the hood. WOW factor off the charts. Down side, Clearance under the hood, Getting clean air to the back 2 cylinders, Dirty air of debrie flying around. You will need air screens or filter to keep out debrie, couple hundred dollars alone. You will need a steady vacuum for both the fuel regulator and the map sensor on the motor. Some systems you need to make your own. Getting the throttle body linkage to work all together. You will need an Air meter that sits on the inlet of each throttle body to adjust air flow into that cylinder. You will need either 1 or 2 O2 sensors for the computor. Fuel system, 3/8" supply line and 5/16" return line to tank. No aluminum lines, not safe and crack over time. Alot of states will not pass car for road if lines aluminum. Plastic or steel only. Fuel pump, I like mine in gas tank, need to modify tank. Fuel pump flow, I have 2 255l. pumps on different curcuits. Backup when racing, can swap over if 1 pump fails. This system will give flow for 800 hp with each pump. Need a fuel pressure regulator and vacuum source. At idle I like about 35-37 psi. Cruising it goes to 45 psi and is solid. Injector size, I started with a 452 motor and went to 55 pound injectors, The motor was to be supercharged, Reason for larger injectors. I have need no problem with the TB setup. No black smoke on accelleration. The duty cycle or how long the injector is turned on at 6,000 rpms is only 58%. In the old days when FI started, idea was small injectors, high duty cycles of 80-99% and higher fuel pressures. That has changed over the years to big injectors like 50's for SB motors and 72's for anything over 400 cubes. There is less pulsing of fuel pump in system, steadier pressure, less heating on injectors. The injectors use the fuel to cool them down. Wierd. It works. Less stress on the injector drivers with a shorter pulse to injectors extends the live of the ECU. Price on this system is high. If you have depth pockets, it's your call.
I run a small air clearner for a boat on my car and everything stays clean and protected. I will have TWM setup a screen kit for my throttle bodies when the time comes.
That's a short story, if you want to talk more, call me 7322543536 in the evening. I'm in NJ.
No matter which system you might go with, make sure that FAST installs the correct motor specs and firing order for your motor. I had this problem. Told them a 452 FE ford motor and got the info for a 454 BBchevy motor what a mess this was to figure out and cost. Rick L.
I didn't cover camshafts, compression of motor, and most important EXHAUST SYSTEM of side pipes and back pressure. This is a big thing with our side pipes. Power loss can be from 5 hp to 70 hp. depending on size of pipe, internal muffler size, size of header pipes. Too big is just as bad as too small. What other wor was done to the motor as far as head or intake porting and gasket matching between intake and head? Again more info needed. You see why there is a couple of hours needed for this. Last note, avoid using rubber fuel lines. The ethetol in the gas eats rubber lines over the years, If luck you get about 5-8 years. The rubber ends up a little rubber balls, location depends on amount of damage to car and fuel system. 2 good fuel filters with 8-10 micros are needed for protection. I have short hoses between fuel pump mount housing and pump outlets to system. both lines rotten out. Fuel filters saved system.
Rick,
Thanks for all that information! I appreciate the offer to speak and will probably take you up on that. Hoping to drive the car another month or so and break it down when the cooler weather sets in. I'm ready to get the car the way I want it and stop tolerating it the way it currently is. Sounds like the stack injection may give the best performance but may not be as practical and obviously is a higher investment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
I have an Eight Stack system but can't comment on anything other than looks because I have not ran the motor. I'm still working on the wiring.

Ace have you talked to Wayne?

He sells a lot of different systems. I did buy my ECU from him.

Dwight





Dwight, no I have not spoken to Wayne about it. When I was down at his shop getting my carb tuned he mentioned the stack injection and the power that he saw from them. I believe he uses the redline management system but I do not know anything about that offering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by philminotti View Post
I have FAST multi-port sequential system with a throttle body. I love it. I had to throw a grand at it to finally get it tuned properly, but that's EFI. Cubic dollars. I'm not a big believer in the EZ systems, although a modest Windsor build will probably be just fine. When you're talking big blocks with hairy cams, I personally believe there's no substitute for a FAST XFI or similar system. When you move on to an independent runner system like Inglese or similar system, EZ self learning is NOT an option. It'll take a real expert and a chassis dyno to get it right. But in the end, it's worth it.
Phil,
Thanks for chiming in. How is the throttle response on that multi-port setup? I've heard that EFI setups allow for much more aggressive camshafts to be used. I've also heard that EFI "tames" the sound of a cam. That may be just parking lot gear head chatter but my assumption would be that using EFI would still allow for a rowdy sounding car. I fully agree about using a legitimate tuner and would make the necessary plans to have that expense.
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Old 09-05-2015, 03:36 AM
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I've never heard of EFI "taming" a big cam. Certainly a cam with lots of duration and overlap can "tame" a big displacement engine with a high static compression ratio, but I don't believe EFI is going to make a radical cam any more appropriate for the street. I will say that that idle and low rpm behavior in a "hairy cam" situation is easier to manage with EFI as you really don't have to worry about fuel metering problems due to low vacuum like you would with a carb. It's been said many times on this board and I'll say it again, EFI absolutely will NOT outperform a well tuned carb at the top end. However, part throttle street manners of a well sorted EFI system can't be beat, IMO. To answer your first question, my throttle response is excellent, but that took over a thousand dollars worth of dyno time to realize.

As for sound, in a word, nonsense. EFI has no effect on sound. I can't even begin to fabricate a plausible theory why it might, so I call BS on that one.
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Old 09-05-2015, 05:50 AM
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I think he's referring to independent runner systems. I switched from a single Holley to Webers on my 351C, and it definitely smoothed the engine. I had a small solid cam - slightly rough idle. With Webers, it sounded like it didn't have a performance cam at all. The lope was gone.

But it isn't EFI that does that. It's the removal of the common plenum.

BTW, I have a friend with Fast EFI and Weber style throttle bodies (TWM Induction), and another with Electromotive and TWM. They both work well, but they take a lot of work to get them running right.
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Old 09-05-2015, 06:31 AM
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I had considered going the "self tuning" EFI but after talking to people who had done it and researching on the internet, it basically had me running away from them. The Fast EZ 2.0 seemed to be one of the most finicky and least reliable systems on the market. You are far better off with the multiport anyway, and there are a lot of other systems you can look at if you are interested in tuning. BigStuff3, Motec, even Holley has a decent setup. If you aren't in to tuning it, then you are going to throw a lot of money to a tuner to get it running properly, and you still run a good chance of having a temperamental setup. Also, don't forget to add in the fuel system when figuring out price of the EFI.

You might improve mpg's a bit going to a proper efi, but if your good carb is tuned and sized correctly, and the cam is right, everything else should be fine. I think once you work through your original engine woes, you will be a lot happier rather than just throwing money at problems that stemmed from something else and also add a plethora of NEW problems. When all is said and done, you are throwing $4k at an EFI/Fuel system when a portion of that money could be used to rebuild your bottom end to get the results you seek. You have a good block, you have heads, intake, and carb. All of the main ingredients are there to get roughly 500 safe, reliable, and streetable rwhp. Have the bottom end rebuilt properly and go have fun with it.
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Last edited by itstock; 09-05-2015 at 06:43 AM..
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Old 09-05-2015, 12:00 PM
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Ace,

As you search for an aftermarket ECU you should take a look at the Pro-M Universal ECU. It is the Ford factory racing team ECU made for Ford to Ford's specs by the OEM that makes their Ford daily driver ECU's.

Ford had the option of going with one of the existing aftermarket offerings for the factory race cars or designing their own purpose built racing system from the ground up. They chose the fresh sheet of paper and built a very impressive system. Now the proletariat like us can have access to the same technology.

The unit comes complete with an excellent Windows based tuning software package, data logging capability and a self learning heuristic that builds your base tune so you can focus on optimizing it for your intended usage, racing or otherwise.

Here is the link => Pro-M Universal. The price is fairly easy on the budget at $2K w/o sensors. It does use many of the OEM sensors you may currently already have. You will need a MAF, and dual widebands.

Ford's FRPP business unit was originally going to sell this system over the counter through their Ford Racing Parts franchise. Something went bump in the dark and it never happened. Pro-M, which was founded by one of Fords EFI design engineers who has since passed away, worked a deal to sell the units into the aftermarket.

Very high quality, originally designed for Ford factory racing efforts, and very easy to work with.

I think you'll be impressed.


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Last edited by eschaider; 09-05-2015 at 12:05 PM.. Reason: Spelling & grammar
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Old 09-06-2015, 05:41 AM
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My brother has installed a few of the FAST EZ systems in the last few months and they work great. If you think you are going to bolt it on and go, that usually isn't the case though. It will take tweaks to get it running good, but the car will run and you can drive it while you tweak.

As far as comparing it to a carb, that is nuts. There is no comparison. Your car will run smoother, start easier, and be a lot less worrisome in the long run. There may be an area or two across the powerband where the carb runs better, but but across the whole powerband, it won't even be close.
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Old 09-08-2015, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philminotti View Post
I've never heard of EFI "taming" a big cam. Certainly a cam with lots of duration and overlap can "tame" a big displacement engine with a high static compression ratio, but I don't believe EFI is going to make a radical cam any more appropriate for the street. I will say that that idle and low rpm behavior in a "hairy cam" situation is easier to manage with EFI as you really don't have to worry about fuel metering problems due to low vacuum like you would with a carb. It's been said many times on this board and I'll say it again, EFI absolutely will NOT outperform a well tuned carb at the top end. However, part throttle street manners of a well sorted EFI system can't be beat, IMO. To answer your first question, my throttle response is excellent, but that took over a thousand dollars worth of dyno time to realize.

As for sound, in a word, nonsense. EFI has no effect on sound. I can't even begin to fabricate a plausible theory why it might, so I call BS on that one.
Phil,
I should have been more clear. I guess I was referring to an EFI or more specifically a multi-port setup having an impact on a larger camshaft. Your probably right about the parking lot jabber......a LS7 sounds pretty mean with a rowdy cam and EFI. The added expense of the multi-port seem worth it just material cost looks like its $1500-$2000 difference of the self tuning setups. $1000 sounds like a pretty good bargain to have your car running as good as it can possibly be. If you think about it we are all driving 30K-90K cars and a grand at a tuner is small price to pay. I could car less if the EFI made less hp or the same at high rpm.....it would have to pay worth the trade off to have all the other benefits
Quote:
Originally Posted by wkooiman View Post
I think he's referring to independent runner systems. I switched from a single Holley to Webers on my 351C, and it definitely smoothed the engine. I had a small solid cam - slightly rough idle. With Webers, it sounded like it didn't have a performance cam at all. The lope was gone.

But it isn't EFI that does that. It's the removal of the common plenum.

BTW, I have a friend with Fast EFI and Weber style throttle bodies (TWM Induction), and another with Electromotive and TWM. They both work well, but they take a lot of work to get them running right.
Thats more like what I was referring to. I've seen comments and heard people mention that specific setups can possibly impact the sound of the car ect. I like the stack setups but just wonder how practical it would be over a multi-port.......looks like more money and I woulld think it would be much harder to locate a quality tuner. I obviously don't know much about the stack setups but thats just my guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itstock View Post
I had considered going the "self tuning" EFI but after talking to people who had done it and researching on the internet, it basically had me running away from them. The Fast EZ 2.0 seemed to be one of the most finicky and least reliable systems on the market. You are far better off with the multiport anyway, and there are a lot of other systems you can look at if you are interested in tuning. BigStuff3, Motec, even Holley has a decent setup. If you aren't in to tuning it, then you are going to throw a lot of money to a tuner to get it running properly, and you still run a good chance of having a temperamental setup. Also, don't forget to add in the fuel system when figuring out price of the EFI.

You might improve mpg's a bit going to a proper efi, but if your good carb is tuned and sized correctly, and the cam is right, everything else should be fine. I think once you work through your original engine woes, you will be a lot happier rather than just throwing money at problems that stemmed from something else and also add a plethora of NEW problems. When all is said and done, you are throwing $4k at an EFI/Fuel system when a portion of that money could be used to rebuild your bottom end to get the results you seek. You have a good block, you have heads, intake, and carb. All of the main ingredients are there to get roughly 500 safe, reliable, and streetable rwhp. Have the bottom end rebuilt properly and go have fun with it.
500rwhp would be pretty dang serious in one of these cars. On a dynojet would you say that would require about a 620hp crank hp? That would require some RPM in one of these stroked windsors woudn't it? I think my motor is going to check out fine.....from all the educated guesses it points to possibly the camshaft. I think it makes perfects sense to freshen it up or just go through it while its out of the car. It has a small rear main seal leak so that needs to be repaired so the the cold weather will be perfect timing. My thought process isn't that EFI would fix anything that I have going currently going on with the car. My thoughts were that it would compliment the car and its driveability if correctly installed and tuned. I would have no issue with first trying the Quick Fuel 750 I currently have on the car once the engine goes back in. Actually took the car out last night and it ran like **** below 2000rpm.....may have gotten some trash in the carb, it has a nasty consistent studder that came out of no where the last 2 times I've been in it. I've read just as many good things about the FAST sytem as I have bad. FAST is about 10 miles from my house so I would have the luxury of going to them direct and probably getting hooked up with someone that tunes on the side. Have you gotten use to that nitrous and does it make you want a big block?
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
Ace,

As you search for an aftermarket ECU you should take a look at the Pro-M Universal ECU. It is the Ford factory racing team ECU made for Ford to Ford's specs by the OEM that makes their Ford daily driver ECU's.

Ford had the option of going with one of the existing aftermarket offerings for the factory race cars or designing their own purpose built racing system from the ground up. They chose the fresh sheet of paper and built a very impressive system. Now the proletariat like us can have access to the same technology.

The unit comes complete with an excellent Windows based tuning software package, data logging capability and a self learning heuristic that builds your base tune so you can focus on optimizing it for your intended usage, racing or otherwise.

Here is the link => Pro-M Universal. The price is fairly easy on the budget at $2K w/o sensors. It does use many of the OEM sensors you may currently already have. You will need a MAF, and dual widebands.

Ford's FRPP business unit was originally going to sell this system over the counter through their Ford Racing Parts franchise. Something went bump in the dark and it never happened. Pro-M, which was founded by one of Fords EFI design engineers who has since passed away, worked a deal to sell the units into the aftermarket.

Very high quality, originally designed for Ford factory racing efforts, and very easy to work with.

I think you'll be impressed.


Ed
Sounds like a nice setup. We both know I just should just through a 03 terminator engine in it and a twin screw and call it day! Can you even put a mod motor in an early SPF? I thought I read where mod motors only fit in SPF cars beyone a certain build number.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joyridin' View Post
My brother has installed a few of the FAST EZ systems in the last few months and they work great. If you think you are going to bolt it on and go, that usually isn't the case though. It will take tweaks to get it running good, but the car will run and you can drive it while you tweak.

As far as comparing it to a carb, that is nuts. There is no comparison. Your car will run smoother, start easier, and be a lot less worrisome in the long run. There may be an area or two across the powerband where the carb runs better, but but across the whole powerband, it won't even be close.
Thats encouraging. I would still seek out a tuner but as you mentioned the EFI sytems that have been properly setup have to be heads and shoulders above most aspects of a carb. There are probably just as many threads about people not pleased with EFI as there are that like it.......the tuner can make or break you.
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Old 09-16-2015, 08:23 PM
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I would just pay up front and get the xfi system, it is the best for the fe, the trumpets look cool but cost more, the self learning I would not use, just heard to many stories about them not working right and in the end they end up getting the xfi. Has anybody used the mass flo efi for the fe, keith craft sells them???
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Old 09-17-2015, 07:26 AM
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I'v been messing with performance EFI for a few years now. I wouldn't say I'm an expert, but I have done my home work. The learning curve can be steep. But I'll probably never go back to a carb.

Self tuning a myth and a marketing buzz word. Doesn't happen. The computer can get itself to about 75% or so of where you need to be. But you'll need to understand how it works so you can get it where it needs to be. Especially on a performance engine. Some dyno time with a pro can dial it in to run like a stocker.

I think throttle body EFI is not worth the expense and effort. Because it's a wet manifold, you end up with some of the same charectoristics of a carb system. Port injection (like stock engines) work really, parts are inexpensive, and are dead on reliable. Stack system look great, perform really well, but do require some extra work to get them running right. Stack systems are not a simple bolt on and go.

EFI will "tame" a big cam. The problem with a big cam and a carb is that you tend to lose intake charge velocity at lower rpm's. Because the air/fuel mixture is moving at such a slow speed, the fuel falls out of suspension and puddles in the intake; same thing with a throttle body. That's why engines with big ports and carbs idle at such high speeds. Port injection makes a significant improvement in that area. A big cam with big ports will idle like a ***** cat at 800 rpm's, and drive around town without a hiccup.

Cam shaft selection can make a big difference, depending on the EFI system you use. A throttle body will run fine on pretty much any cam that you choose. Port injection will do better with a cam designed for EFI, but can still be fine with the average hydraulic roller cam. An individual runner system really needs a cam with a wide LSA, like 114*. A big cam with narrow LSA will create a lot of reversion, and create that "cloud" effect that Webers were famous for.

Most EFI components are pretty standard, and not a lot of difference between one system and another. The ECU is, of course, the heart of the system. It takes in information, makes decisions, and then acts on them. The more complicated the system is, the better decisions it makes. And the harder it is to tune. It's a trade off. A carb is extremly easy to tune, but it's not very accurate.

Many ECU's have a lot of features to do a lot of stuff. Fuel, spark, turbo, traction control, multiple fuels, cam timing, etc. Don't waste money on features you'll never use.

I like the ability to use E-85. On a hot day or on the track, E-85 really runs well, makes excellent power, and keeps the engine cool. I have a switch under the dash to go back and forth between the two fuels. My ECU can use a factory fuel sensor, but for a variety of reasons I chose not to use it.

Modern engines use some kind of meter to measure incoming air, and O2 sensors in the exhaust to measure outgoing exhaust. It measures those qualities, and then makes decisions on the amount of fuel to be injected and timing to use. That's referred to as "closed loop". These are the most accurate, and if your engine isn't too radical, you should try to use that.
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Old 09-17-2015, 08:52 AM
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I have to agree with bobcowan on this one. For years now I have been running a Mass Flo EFI system, the old A9L Ford Computer based system. It's on a 418 small block with an extreme cam, AFR 205 heads and a lot of compression. A little tuning by the Mustang boys from Ford on a plug in chip got it up to 506 at the tires, just for grins. BUT, it still idles at 900 and does shake the whole car but at about 1,500 you would think it's a grocery getter rotary, very smooth all the way to 7,200. Starts without touching the pedal every time, hot or cold, runs on 92 octane easily and gets great gas milage if you behave yourself. Beautiful cruiser on the highway, smooth as glass thanks to the EFI.

I need to upgrade to the new computer (which I think is the current Ford rebranded but I'm not sure) and whatever bits are needed, but it's kind of hard to break up what has been working so well for so long on a street car.

After thought, the self tuning aspect was just "OK" and it ran very well just plugging it in/up and driving it a while. No complaints and I think most folks would be very happy leaving it alone in our light cars.

But the numbers were telling and I think at wide open throttle is where the tuning really made the difference. 430 before and 506/535 after, confirmed by unplugging the chip and making back to back runs on an honest dyno and operators at Ford racing. I'm not sure the actual numbers are all that meaningful except for the difference between them. No difference in drivability at all, just some extra punch from the midrange up, and maybe a little snappier on throttle response, maybe.

I may have a Mass Flo for sale if I can get the courage to pull the trigger on the new one........or maybe not. But everyone knows how that goes.

Good luck
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Old 09-17-2015, 03:00 PM
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I disagree on the TBI set-up. Obviously they do not work as well as port fuel, but if you just want to bolt on a system that mimics a carb in looks, it is a good deal. It will start every time, no sticking floats or puking gas up through the vents, no running massively rich on one side, and no vapor lock on a hot day with cheap gas. Besides the fuel line, which you can hide if you are really good, it looks like a carb especially if you have an air cleaner that sits low.

If I wanted the original or nostalgic look, I would not hesitate to buy one over a carb.
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Old 09-17-2015, 05:34 PM
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Ace23,

Lots of good opinions and some experience above; I'll add mine.

I have two large engines (521 in the Cobra, 557 in an 81 Zephyr wagon). Each has a Holley HP system which is throttle body and multi port.

Each engine started life with a carb and each migrated to EFI because of problems - one Demon carb that couldn't be tuned and one Holley carb that kept boiling the substance we laughingly call gasoline due to underhood heat.

The EFI has given each car a new personality that makes them easy to drive on the street and very nice when running track days at Sebring, Daytona etc etc.

Both have been what I call "learning experiences."

Here are a few examples.

1) Fuel pressure: The Cobra ended up with a sumped, baffled tank after a highway cruise showed fuel starvation due to gasoline running away from the fuel pump pickup on a normal interstate highway curve at 75mph. With a carb you wouldn't notice because the float bowl buffers the momentary lack of fuel pressure. With EFI, the engine stops when its fuel pressure drops to zero. The wagon has an in-tank setup I really like: Aeromotive Phantom. Fairly easy to install and has its own way of resisting fuel starvation that really seems to work.

2) Tuning: The self learning can get you 70-80% of the way there. It still needs work to tune it.

3) Bung(s): All these systems as far as I know need O2 sensors installed in the exhaust system. Mine are one per car, and are located at the beginning of the collector just after the four individual tubes join together. That location seems to work OK.

I'm sure I have forgotten several things - the mind tends to eliminate bad experiences.

The good includes easy starts, decent mileage, good throttle response. The lumpy idle can be programmed in ;-)

I have no regrets about switching. If I were building another engine I'd go EFI from the beginning.

As to different brands, most of the majors are fine. If you have someone conveniently nearby that would seem to be an advantage as long as their hardware is good and their tuning skills are up to snuff - don't ask me how to evaluate that! I like the Holleys because I've been using them for more than ten years and know a little about them.

Have fun with the decision,

Tom
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Old 09-17-2015, 06:05 PM
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Im in the same ballpark of thinking, efi all the way from the beginning, especially if you plan on driving a lot...now if I could jus get some 8 stacks
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Old 09-21-2015, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Wells View Post
2) Tuning: The self learning can get you 70-80% of the way there. It still needs work to tune it.

Tom
Tuning of EFI systems is all done in and with software, and that includes self-learning / tuning. While EFI systems have been around for a few years, there is no doubt going to be significant progress in self-learning / tuning programming, algorithms, etc., as well as the application of ever-more powerful computing hardware - so this is going to be an area to watch.

While self-learning / tuning may only get you 70-80% of the way there now, that percentage will continue to rise over time - the only questions are how fast and how far.
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Old 09-21-2015, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobcowan View Post
I'v been messing with performance EFI for a few years now. I wouldn't say I'm an expert, but I have done my home work. The learning curve can be steep. But I'll probably never go back to a carb.

Self tuning a myth and a marketing buzz word. Doesn't happen. The computer can get itself to about 75% or so of where you need to be. But you'll need to understand how it works so you can get it where it needs to be. Especially on a performance engine. Some dyno time with a pro can dial it in to run like a stocker.

I think throttle body EFI is not worth the expense and effort. Because it's a wet manifold, you end up with some of the same charectoristics of a carb system. Port injection (like stock engines) work really, parts are inexpensive, and are dead on reliable. Stack system look great, perform really well, but do require some extra work to get them running right. Stack systems are not a simple bolt on and go.

EFI will "tame" a big cam. The problem with a big cam and a carb is that you tend to lose intake charge velocity at lower rpm's. Because the air/fuel mixture is moving at such a slow speed, the fuel falls out of suspension and puddles in the intake; same thing with a throttle body. That's why engines with big ports and carbs idle at such high speeds. Port injection makes a significant improvement in that area. A big cam with big ports will idle like a ***** cat at 800 rpm's, and drive around town without a hiccup.

Cam shaft selection can make a big difference, depending on the EFI system you use. A throttle body will run fine on pretty much any cam that you choose. Port injection will do better with a cam designed for EFI, but can still be fine with the average hydraulic roller cam. An individual runner system really needs a cam with a wide LSA, like 114*. A big cam with narrow LSA will create a lot of reversion, and create that "cloud" effect that Webers were famous for.

Most EFI components are pretty standard, and not a lot of difference between one system and another. The ECU is, of course, the heart of the system. It takes in information, makes decisions, and then acts on them. The more complicated the system is, the better decisions it makes. And the harder it is to tune. It's a trade off. A carb is extremly easy to tune, but it's not very accurate.

Many ECU's have a lot of features to do a lot of stuff. Fuel, spark, turbo, traction control, multiple fuels, cam timing, etc. Don't waste money on features you'll never use.

I like the ability to use E-85. On a hot day or on the track, E-85 really runs well, makes excellent power, and keeps the engine cool. I have a switch under the dash to go back and forth between the two fuels. My ECU can use a factory fuel sensor, but for a variety of reasons I chose not to use it.

Modern engines use some kind of meter to measure incoming air, and O2 sensors in the exhaust to measure outgoing exhaust. It measures those qualities, and then makes decisions on the amount of fuel to be injected and timing to use. That's referred to as "closed loop". These are the most accurate, and if your engine isn't too radical, you should try to use that.
Bob,
Thanks for the insight. I'm leaning towards the FAST XFI Sportman with either their throttle body injection or the multi-port. From what I have been continuing to read the multi-port seems like the better way to go.......on the other hand the FAST tech team tells me that the throttle body injection would be fine for a street car. I feel like I should consult with Brent Lykins on the EFI as I would like to work with him for whatever becomes of the power plant. I want to maximize on the driveability, MPG and manners of the car. With my existing motor I do have a heap of good parts....I'm going to lean on Brent to maximize what I can achieve . I would love to go 385 series big block but I'm sure I can be satisifed with a well running thought out SBF platform. I enjoy the car now so it should be really nice when its not missing all its dang power. The key is going to be finding a tuner to tie it all togther. I don't like doing things twice and would rather spend the money and do it right the first time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Wells View Post
Ace23,

Lots of good opinions and some experience above; I'll add mine.

I have two large engines (521 in the Cobra, 557 in an 81 Zephyr wagon). Each has a Holley HP system which is throttle body and multi port.

Each engine started life with a carb and each migrated to EFI because of problems - one Demon carb that couldn't be tuned and one Holley carb that kept boiling the substance we laughingly call gasoline due to underhood heat.

The EFI has given each car a new personality that makes them easy to drive on the street and very nice when running track days at Sebring, Daytona etc etc.

Both have been what I call "learning experiences."

Here are a few examples.

1) Fuel pressure: The Cobra ended up with a sumped, baffled tank after a highway cruise showed fuel starvation due to gasoline running away from the fuel pump pickup on a normal interstate highway curve at 75mph. With a carb you wouldn't notice because the float bowl buffers the momentary lack of fuel pressure. With EFI, the engine stops when its fuel pressure drops to zero. The wagon has an in-tank setup I really like: Aeromotive Phantom. Fairly easy to install and has its own way of resisting fuel starvation that really seems to work.

2) Tuning: The self learning can get you 70-80% of the way there. It still needs work to tune it.

3) Bung(s): All these systems as far as I know need O2 sensors installed in the exhaust system. Mine are one per car, and are located at the beginning of the collector just after the four individual tubes join together. That location seems to work OK.

I'm sure I have forgotten several things - the mind tends to eliminate bad experiences.

The good includes easy starts, decent mileage, good throttle response. The lumpy idle can be programmed in ;-)

I have no regrets about switching. If I were building another engine I'd go EFI from the beginning.

As to different brands, most of the majors are fine. If you have someone conveniently nearby that would seem to be an advantage as long as their hardware is good and their tuning skills are up to snuff - don't ask me how to evaluate that! I like the Holleys because I've been using them for more than ten years and know a little about them.

Have fun with the decision,

Tom
Tom,
I've seen many of your post and I know you enjoy the big blocks with EFI....that is too cool! There seems to be many opinions on carb vs EFI but one thing seems to keep ringing out. I never seem to find a post where someone has used EFI and invested in a good tuner and then come to the conclusion they don't like it. I'm hoping I can buget this all together and get going. When I get ready to ask Lykins if he is interested in putting together a solution for me I'm sure the detail will start coming together. From what I can tell it seems like most of the multi-port intakes are single plane......can you work with a manifold manufacturer like Edelbrock to setup any of their manifolds for multi-port or is that something you have to modify yourself? I've seen where many of the builders favor a single plane like the victor jr on larger inch Windsors but I've also seen where dual plane intakes like a ported RPM air gap can flow pretty impressive numbers that are similar or equal to the single plane units.
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Old 09-22-2015, 05:47 AM
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Ace23,

I use the Torker II single plane because any other manifold would be physically too tall to fit and still be allow use of a decent-sized air filter.

The first manifold (for the Cobra) we had to modify to install injector bungs and make our own fuel rails to match, an expensive pain but it was all that was available ten+ years ago.

Fast forward to today and finally Edelbrock makes one for the 385 series with the bungs already in, and matching fuel rails. Now, if they'd get the front lip shape correct so it could seal properly to the block, it wouldn't leak oil around the base of the distributor - but I digress...

I've never looked, but it would seem likely you could buy a ready-made bung-equipped manifold and matching fuel rail setup for your small-block if you decided to go the port injection setup. Not needed for the throttle body setup; either way, just pay attention to the overall height so you don't end up with something sticking through the top of the scoop :-O

Tom
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