4000 series hub / upright / spidle options

[shelby racer]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Ellie says, "well I guess this means I don't get my bone."

Sorry Ellie - still waiting to see if SAI has anything for me in the future. Maybe I can send you a bone then

[shelby racer]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

John, so you're saying that the current fix is not a permanent fix? If your CSX passes its 500-mile test, then will you be able to take the car to the track and feel comfortable?

It's not clear to me if you should let your "foot off the gas" sort of speak.

I am not planning on taking the cobra to the track and beating it up. Spirited street driving should satisfy my cobra urge. Maybe after I have had it for a while I will get some bill boards and take it to the track.

My "fix" was to tear everything apart, inspect everything, clean it up (dress or mill what ever was appropriate), replace or upgrade parts as neeed, torque fasteners appropriately and lock with loctite as appropriate, put it all back together and hopefully enjoy it for 500 miles - listening and feeling intently. Research new rotors and hats so that the rotors can be removed with out tearing the suspension down. If it all seems good after being inspected 500 miles down the road, not worry about it too much and enjoy it. If SAI comes up with an upgrade or fix I am sure they will let me know. In fact I will probably be the first one to get an upgrade if it becomes available after the attention that this problem has caused.

[shelby racer]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

You mentioned the hubs were NOT pressed into the bearings. Is that true?

If so, could you please post the bearing number?

I assume the hubs use a double-row angular contact bearings in the hubs.

Also, what size bolt (shank size) holds the whole assembly together?

David

Hey David,
great to hear from you. The one Kirkham part on my Cobra is still doing great and SAI is coming up to the level of service that I have enjoyed from your company .

The hub was NOT pressed on the spindle

The bearings are held in the hub by a "C" clip on one (outer I think) side and I am not sure what is holding it in on the inner side.

The bearing number is Italy A M 01 A SKF BA213 309809 AD

Spindle nut size is 1 13/16 (45.48 mm) out side and 29.92 mm inside.

Chris Dawkins say to feel free to call him if you have questions or need more info, want to talk or have advice. You know each other so you should have his number (or I can send it to you if you can not find it). Thanks for following up.

John(;-)

[David Kirkham]

Thank you for your kind words.

This is the type of bearing in your upright?

http://www.skf.com/skf/productcatalo...ogue=1&lang=en

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by shelby racer

If SAI comes up with an upgrade or fix I am sure they will let me know. In fact I will probably be the first one to get an upgrade if it becomes available after the attention that this problem has caused.

I hope it's not "if", but "when" and hopefully "soon." If there's more of them out there like this, then it may not be long before someone gets seriously hurt and a sharp plantiff's attorney does a little investigative work.

[Three Peaks]

Okay, just to play devil's advocate here-

I assumed from the original post that the loose bolts could not be accessed without removing the rotor, which required removal of the entire front suspension and the use of a press.
Now, after all the headaches, the mechanic has determined that the hubs are not pressed on, the rotors are bolt and and can be removed without the use of a press, and the bolts can be accessed, probably without removing the entire suspension- possibly by simply removing the rotors.

Now, with all this determined and the feeding frenzy apparently over, what exactly are the real shortcomings of this upright? I'm just curious, more than anything else, but I would also like to know what the problem is in case I encounter something similar someday.
It seems like what shortcomings were pointed out could be fixed with some relatively minor modifications to the upright- larger and better grade connecting bolts and washers, anything else?

Bob

[rokndad]

Now, after all the headaches, the mechanic has determined that the hubs are not pressed on, the rotors are bolt and and can be removed without the use of a press, and the bolts can be accessed, probably without removing the entire suspension- possibly by simply removing the rotors.

I think that's what I was saying on the very first page of this thread. Take the calipers off and unbolt the rotor. The bearing slips off. My car is just fine, front end was easily aligned by a competent alignment shop that handles CSX 2000 and 3000 cars and no loose fasteners to be found.....and I've looked.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by shelby racer;93****

I still think the design is bad for multiple reasons (although it may be adequate for a street driven cobra when properly torqued) and absolutely do not get why the upper 3 holes are slotted since you can not adjust them with the rotor on, the slots weaken the upright and allow for the part to move. Oh well, may be there will be a fix in the future.

I'm not sure what it all means in terms of a bottom line, but I think this remains an outstanding issue.

[David Kirkham]

shelby racer,

Could you please post a picture of the bearing? I can not find that bearing number anywhere. I believe it is a double row angular contact bearing.

David

[shelby racer]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I hope it's not "if", but "when" and hopefully "soon." If there's more of them out there like this, then it may not be long before someone gets seriously hurt and a sharp plantiff's attorney does a little investigative work.

It is entirely possible, based on my luck and the history of the car, that no one else will ever have the same problem I had. I know people have had other problems with the upright, but mine may have been unique. I still think it is a good idea for people to check at this point.

[shelby racer]

Originally Posted by Three Peaks

Okay, just to play devil's advocate here-

I assumed from the original post that the loose bolts could not be accessed without removing the rotor, which required removal of the entire front suspension and the use of a press.
Now, after all the headaches, the mechanic has determined that the hubs are not pressed on, the rotors are bolt and and can be removed without the use of a press, and the bolts can be accessed, probably without removing the entire suspension- possibly by simply removing the rotors.

Now, with all this determined and the feeding frenzy apparently over, what exactly are the real shortcomings of this upright? I'm just curious, more than anything else, but I would also like to know what the problem is in case I encounter something similar someday.
It seems like what shortcomings were pointed out could be fixed with some relatively minor modifications to the upright- larger and better grade connecting bolts and washers, anything else?

Bob

My intent was to avoid a feeding frenzy based on the old SAI, so much so, that that I contacted SAI privately before approaching anyone on a public forum. After having them tell me what the procedure was (including a press) to deal with the problem, I turned to club cobra for help and advice since I was for a better solution. I even started my first post stating that I did not want this to turn into a Shelby Bash.

It got ugly when people claimed that they had different / better / upgraded parts. My fault for not posting better pictures I guess.

I don't know how many times I have to say that the rotors can NOT be removed without dis-assembly of the hub and upright. Does anyone else want to suggest after 10 pages that I just need to slip the rotor off???

While it did not require a press to get the hub off the spindle, it does require partial dis-assembly of the front suspension and removing the spindle nut from the back side of the upright so that the rotor and hub assembly could be removed and make the upright bolts accessable. Not inconsequential even if it was easier than SAI said it would be. I also had to re-machine the slots - which could not be done on the car. It was also best to have the uprights off the car to replace the bolts that hold it to the ball joint mount.

It is a bad design that you have to dis-assmble the suspension to remove the rotor. I am not an engineer so I will not comment on loads and shear, but my understanding from talking to people who are engineers is that the design has issues. From conversations with people who have had problems with the original uprights, Shelby is aware of some of the design defficiencies and is working to improve them. I also think it is dumb to place adjustment slots in an aluminum piece that experiences that kind of load - especially if you can't access the fasteners when the rotor is on. The upright assembly probably only needs to be in one orientation and then you do alignment and adjustment with the A-arms (especially since you can NOT adjust the fasteners on the upright with out removing the rotor which involves partial dis-assembly of the hub.... Did ANYONE not get it this time that you can NOT just slip the rotor off??? ). Otherwise it seems lighter and stiffer than the original upright and spindle and what I have is WAAAY beter than what the origial modified CAV design that they were putting on

[shelby racer]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

Thank you for your kind words.

This is the type of bearing in your upright?

http://www.skf.com/skf/productcatalo...ogue=1&lang=en

Not being an engineer, I again can not comment on how good or appropriate the bearing is, but I have been told by others that it is a good size and appropriate. I try to not state things as fact just because I think it with no proof or if someone just told me something. If I have proof or if I have the qualifications then I will make a statement.

[shelby racer]

Originally Posted by rokndad

I think that's what I was saying on the very first page of this thread. Take the calipers off and unbolt the rotor. The bearing slips off. My car is just fine, front end was easily aligned by a competent alignment shop that handles CSX 2000 and 3000 cars and no loose fasteners to be found.....and I've looked.

Again - per SAI when I talked with them and my mechanic talked with them - they gave us the protocol (including the need for a press) and told us it was a PITA. Then, the upright had to be re-machined because the bolts had come loose - discovered that ALL the bolts were loose on BOTH sides.

Why have you had to take your rotor off? How many miles do you have? You also stated on the first page that your rotor just slipped off like a typical car (probably like the many cars I have owned / worked on - including the 8 that I own right now) which is NOT the case with my cobra. You also stated that you thought that your spindle / hub assembly is different than mine. The 4700s that were built from the ground up in Las Vegas (I think between the time they shut down in South Africa and the time they started up at HST) were more like the original 4000 series - which came with a more original spindle / hub. Can you post a picture of what you have since I have posted several of what I have over the last 11 pages? As far as loose fasteners, there re loose ones all over my car - not just in the suspension.

[Three Peaks]

So, you're saying you can't just slip the rotor off? J/K

After looking at the rotor/hub design, would the Wilwood superlite rotors fit and be easier to remove in case of this happening in the future. At least, from what I can glean from this long thread, this is the major problem- not being able to get to the upright bolts due to the non-removable rotor?

Since I have an original style chassis, I would like to eventually like to use the Shelby or Kirkham suspension pieces and I may end up having to deal with these issues. You never know, after this thread a bunch of these front uprights and suspension pieces may come up for sale?

Bob

[shelby racer]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

shelby racer,

Could you please post a picture of the bearing? I can not find that bearing number anywhere. I believe it is a double row angular contact bearing.

David

I am about an hour away from the shop that has the parts. Call or write Chris, I am sure he can get some pictures. He is trying to put it all back together for me so I can pick it up tommorrow morning and re-assemble the front end..

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Three Peaks

So, you're saying you can't just slip the rotor off? J/K

Will the rotor slip off with a blow torch and a sledgehammer?

[shelby racer]

Originally Posted by Three Peaks

So, you're saying you can't just slip the rotor off? J/K

After looking at the rotor/hub design, would the Wilwood superlite rotors fit and be easier to remove in case of this happening in the future. At least, from what I can glean from this long thread, this is the major problem- not being able to get to the upright bolts due to the non-removable rotor?

Since I have an original style chassis, I would like to eventually like to use the Shelby or Kirkham suspension pieces and I may end up having to deal with these issues. You never know, after this thread a bunch of these front uprights and suspension pieces may come up for sale?

Bob

Hey Bob,
not being qualified to build my own car from the ground up (and apparently making the mistake that who ever built mine in the first place was - or at least cared to do a good job - and sadly not kidding on either point) I admire people who are. I am a decent wrench - better than your average shade tree, but would never call myself a mechanic so I paid SAI a lot of money (less than some have but A LOT to me) for a product that I thought I understood. Even if I have had problems with it that are just inherent to cobras, mine was not an as advertised product. If I knew then what I found out when I got the car, a couple of months after getting the car and all that I have had to go through since - I would have done things differently. In case that was too subtle - I probably would NOT own a Shelby right now. I DEFINITELY would NOT reccomend putting the new CAV derived or original style front suspension from Shelby. Based on personal experience buying a $10 part (and being treated like I bought a whole car), the experience of others I have talked with, and what little I know and understand (and feel comfortable saying that I am smart enough to know that I do not know - which is why I was not offended when someone in the business told me that part of my problem when I was seeking Tech support from a non-Shelby company was that I "just didn't know what I was talking about" - anyone here want to take credit for that one???) I would buy a suspension from Kirkham. It is lighter and stronger and better engineered and you will get better support. Oh yeah, it will also cost less. I am NOT a fan of wilood brakes - based on a dear friend's experience with them on a race car and what I have been told about how they make their street rotors - but some people love them.

Now please don't think that I am saying that SAI is not a good company now or that there have not always been fantastic people there (not all of them and there are still some difficult people who act as though they are Carroll Shelby and deserve all the praise ever associated with Shelby and think that their poop is not odiferous and that they can do no wrong and how dare you question what they say) or that AMY has not done a fantastic job trying to turn it all around.

It is also entirely possible that my car is a red headed step child one-of-a-kind in-bred gap tooth banjo playing mutant that has been going through rehab since I have owned it. It has had soooo many issues and so many serious issues that it is unbelievable to me and others. I think me and my car have not received enough love from its parent company so I lost faith - I think it needs a hug . Things also KEEP coming up. I don't know how different the latest cars from SAI are from mine so I can not say if they are better / worse or the same. People seem VERY happy with their cars. I just have trust issues with mine, but I am still working on the relationship. I guess paying my mechanic to go over the car front to back is like therapy.

As far as parts coming up for sale. It sems like the newer 2nd generation CAV suspension would be fine on a street driven cobra - especially if you stick to street tires

[shelby racer]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Will the rotor slip off with a blow torch and a sledgehammer?

Not even with a grinder or a plasma cutter (although I do know of some mil spec / EOD tools that would take care of it - although it would never go back together) or the jaws of life will work, but maybe a circular saw with a composite / carbide disk could.

[Three Peaks]

Well, you seem to have a somewhat positive attitude about the whole thing, so at least they haven't killed your spirit (yet).

Hopefully, you'll be on the road soon and it will take the sting of job hunting off your mind and you can enjoy the driving season.

The more I hear these stories about the Shelby cars (yours isn't the first), the more I appreciate and would spend my money, if I had any, on a Kirkham. Hopefully, I will finish my car soon and see what all the fuss about driving one of these is all about.

I'm curious about the issues with the Wilwood rotors, but that is a discussion for another thread.

Bob

[shelby racer]

I brought my car to my engine builder because there was a little oil leak. Again - for a reason he had NEVER seen before. I had to leave the car with him so he asked if there was any thing else going on with it. I mentioned that there was a squeak in the rear suspension and a sound like the drive shaft hitting when I would turn to go up hill. He said he would give it the once over and even gave me a ride home (an hour each way). Well, he kept finding things and fixing them and 10-12 hours later (over a couple of days) he got to the front end. He stopped when he got to the right side hub and up right.

He called me and said I have some good news and bad news. The good news was that I was still alive and uninjured. I thought he was kidding and didn't "get it" at first. Then he gave me the bad news. Hence starts this oddessy with calls to SAI....

Just imagine if I had not had someone look at the squeak and if they had just stopped there. I guess as some one said recently "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" - although I kept telling my now ex girl friend that the squeaky wheel gets repalced