Question for those who used painless...

[Whaler]

Did you guys only have a horn relay in the set?

I am starting to dig in and looks like mine only has a relay for the horn, and nothing for the lights.

My painless wiring harness was somewhat partially installed and wiring roughed in by the builder so I am discovering this only now. Also I have the instruction and pictographs that include the GM lightswitch...thats no use to me as I planned on putting everything on toggles.

Does a GM headlamp switch incorporate a relay or something to handle the higher current??

I have plans on the park and head lamps on a Lucas 2 position toggle. Will also incorporate the gauge dash lamps into the park lamp cct as well. Have to figure out a hidden rheostat for dimming them to where I like them then leave it alone.

Just thought I would ask....

where do I tie in for a push button start in conjunction with a normal ignition switch uses acc- off- on- ignition.

I guess I wire into the last postion to those applicable terminals...correct?

[HighPlainsDrifter]

Hi, I used the painless 12 ckt wiring kit,the fuse block end is pre terminated. The wire is of higher quality and size so you don't need a light relay unless you're putting in high power driving lights. The ignition will need an 'on' toggle switch and a push button starter button wired to where the start would've been on a key switch. To make things easier I wired all the return ground ckts to a common copper block under the dash,that way you know where they are in a fiberglass car.
Good luck,
Perry.

[xlr8or]

I have installed 3 Painless kits and they all worked great.
The generic harness they offer very well laid out and easy to put in. The last one I did I know for sure it had a headlight relay and horn relay.
Take your time on routing and bundling and it can come out as good looking as a factory harness in a new car.

[Mike Braddock]

Whaler,

I suppose the correct answer would depend on what wattage headlights you plan on running. If you are going to use high power bulbs, the use of relays is paramount. And if you plan on running regular headlamps, I would still recommend running relays for two reasons. First, you never know when you will want to install better bulbs. Notice I didn't say if, but rather when . Second, the relays will prolong the life of your light switch(es) dramatically.

Since you are still in the build stage, it is quite easy to wire the headlamps properly with relays and the cost is minimal--maybe an extra $30, or less if you shop around for bargains. Here's a good article on when relays are needed and how they are wired to control the headlamps:

http://lighting.mbz.org/tech/how_to/relays/

Notice you need proper fusing in the high current side of the relays. This will come directly from your fuse block or you can wire in separate in-line fuses if you don't have enough spare circuits.

Read that article and then ask any remaining questions you have. Good luck.

Mike

[Whaler]

Thanks guys for the answers. yes I love this harness it is so well labeled and actually does have the fuseblock prewired as well.

My builder roughed in all the wiring , all I really needed to do was terminate.

Mike great article, I have already bought 4 of the federal mogul automotive relays to use where need be. My electric fan uses a temp contol kit that also has its own relay as well.

The crappy thing is that all these relays will sit close to the enduser therefore we have relays ending up in the engine bay...I hate that. That temp controller only gives you about 10 to 12 inche play with the insertion temp sensor for the rad. So much for hiding that one....Maybe I will make a nice rack and mount all in the spot..it will at least be cleaner, use some nice convoluted wire tube,

I do want to protect these 16 dollar lucas toggles.anything to help the prince of darkness...loL

Tim

[Cobra 29]

Has anyone ordered lights or relay kits from Daniel Stern?

[Mike Braddock]

Cobra 29,

Yes, I ordered a nice setup from him--7" CB lenses w/daytime driving lights, 100/90W Narva bulbs, 40A relays and nice inline high current ceramic fuse holders. The sockets for the 40A relays and the H4 bulbs are very nice--they accept 10 gage wire. The inline fuse holders also take 10 gage wire with no problems. If you drive at night, lights are like brakes--you can't have too much Dan was a pleasure to deal with. Very honest and takes the time to make sure you get what you need. One warning however. The 130/100W bulbs are not nicknamed paintburners for no reason. If you decide to go with those, make sure they always have adequate cooling (ie don't leave the high beams on when you are idling in traffic).

Tim, those were my thoughts exactly on the Lucas switches . Also, you don't need to mount the relays in the engine compartment. Mount them under the dash and extend the power cable running from the relay to the powered device (fan, headlamp, etc.). That way the relays will live a long, happy life


Mike

[Jack21]

I've ordered lights from DS. The Cibie 7" e-Code headlights. They are installed on the car and work well. He's pretty well versed, and opinionated on what he will, and won't sell. And why! Talked me out of Hella e-Code headlights.

Wouldn't doubt he knows his stuff on relay kits with wiring schematics. Good prices, ships right away, takes credit card orders on line. Give him a shot.

[sllib]

Whaler;
A lot of police vehicles use custom made relay panels for their light/siren/comm/computer needs and mount the panels in the trunk. The hot wiring is doubled, but the grounds are on the rear frame. Just something to think about...
Bill Stradtner

[Whaler]

Thanks guys for the suggestions.


I made up a little mount for 3 relays...includes extras for later included..
They are simple 30 amp jobbies with two output spades on each.

I would love to hide them in the dash and simply run them out with their respective hots to the loads...I guess a nice 10 gauge to the headlamps. Do I simply take the big feed off the fuse block?
If so that would be great, my poor solenoid is already running out of stud length on the batt side of the solenoid...LOL

Also I have a chum back east who recommends using a relay on the hydraulic brake switch. You guys thought of that?? His reasoning is that these contacts don't last long firing the brake lights a while

By the way for those who are interested the coil on the relays draws .2 amps when energized with 13.5 volts.

Still have to put the rad temp control relay for the electric fan up front as the insertion style temperature sensor has 12 inches of wire length to work with. Its also potted into the component (hayden)

Tim

[niles]

Whaler:
Piling up terminals on the hot side is not a good idea.
Would suggest you run only two: one to starter and a no 8 or 10 to a "hot terminal block" if you really want to do it right put a 60 -80 amp fuse or fusable link in the line. Then use seperate terminals for all your hot requirements. Stacking up terminals has thermal expansion issues, lots of corrosion area, and is a reliabily and well as fire hazard. While on the subject: same for grounds; set up a ground (or two) terminal block in engine compartment and one in the rear. Bring all your neatly bundled grounds to the bus bar and teminate with one high quality; cerrated washer with grease, on bare frame metal ground.

gn

[Whaler]

Hi Niles
Thanks for the suggestion I am doing that with the grounds but never thought to make up a hot bus bar...I will likely do that as the hots are adding up...I have to mount it in a fashion thats it nice and ISOLATED.


I have another question I ran into last night.
I have a painless harness, I am also using the MSD setup..blaster , an AL6 and the Billet MSD distributor.
I know I have to only wire the coil as thought the MSD is the only component it wires up with. I also know that the tach only comes from the MSD box to my autometer tach ( marked ignition)

Heres the confusion. My builder rough wired my car and mounted the MSD....I have the heavy red wire going to the hot side of the solenoid...My smaller red wire (unmarked) was packaged with the
bunch of wires my builder makred "ignitoin switch". My job is to terminate all wiring he has run out.

My ignition switch is marked ( iwill use a pushbutton start as well but I have that figured out with the noraml rotart ign switch)

1-Batt
2-St (centre terminal)
3-Ign
4-Acc

The bundle I have from painless is marked as follows My builder grouped them and marked them as IGN switch
I will number where I think they go but am confused by where to put ign coil?

-IGN SW start.....2
-IGN SW Coil.....??
-Ign SW Acc....4
-Ign SW Power.....1
-Red wire unmarked (is from MSD to a switched source)......3


Should "Ign sw coil" be used?? As I said I have the MSD and I thought this MSD set up is almost standalone.

Wondering about this one.

Tim

[Mike Braddock]

Tim,

Every circuit in your car should be fused. If I recall correctly, the IGN SW COIL wire is engergized when--as you guessed--the ignition switch is switched on. If you wire the MSD power relay wire (the small red one) directly to the ignition switch terminal, it will work, but you won't be fused. Instead, wire the pink IGN SW coil wire to the MSD power relay wire so that this circuit is fused. Even better, you can wire up a toggle switch in that circuit and mount it out of sight so you can turn it off when the car is unattended and the vehicle will not have any spark and so it won't start. Cheap theft deterrent. Good luck Tim and keep the questions coming !

Mike

[Whaler]

Hi Mike and thanks for the reply to my question.

I am a little confused in that I thought both these wires that we speak of had to come to my ignition switch and end up being terminated there.

So you say I should wire these two together? if so, how does a fuse come into play, is it at the MSD 6AL?

With these 2 wires connected to each other, how do they then see the ignition switch being turned on? I thought the msd relay wire came to the ignition switch seeking switched voltage? Instead you say it will be should be taken from the ignition sw coil wire from painless?

Just so I have this right, I needed to rehash it as I understand you.


these questions may be dumb but its not really obvious to me until it clicks..

I assume you have the painless and msd setup.

Thanks alot
Tim

[Roscoe]

Whaler,
I also used a painless kit and had no problems with it. It did have a horn and light relay on the block.

I added two more relays:

1 for the elec fuel pump
1 for the elec fan.

Roscoe

[Mike Braddock]

Tim,

You're correct--I confused the Coil IGN wire and the IGN switch wires. The ignition switch ('IGN' or PPI brown wire #932) wire gets wired to the IGN HOT terminal on your ignition switch. This way, when you turn the switch to the 'on' position, you have power on this wire. You then wire the Coil IGN wire (the pink wire I was referring to above--PPI wire #931) to the MSD small (relay) power wire with a toggle switch in between if you so desire. Sorry for the confusion! This is how I have it wired up on my car and it works well and is easy to troubleshoot in the future, since the coil IGN wire really does control the coil ignition via energizing the MSD's internal relay. In addition I have a 20A inline fuse wired in the main MSD power circuit to protect it, should it ever become grounded. This may not be necessary, but I wanted to err on the side of safety...

Mike

[Whaler]

Mike I have no brown wire

And whats worse is that even though this is a painless kit, I have no numbers like you refer to.

All I have are these 5 wires which are labeled clearly on each wire

-IGN SW start.....Purple 12 ga.
-IGN SW Coil.....Pink 14 ga......
-Ign SW Acc....Orange 12 ga.
-Ign SW Power.....Red 12 ga.

-a Smaller Red wire, unmarked (is from MSD to a switched source)......

I have seen the instructions online at painless which show wire numbers in the numbers ranges as you have mentioned, but i don't have those on my wires or in my wiring instructions.

I have a 13 page handout that may even be a photocopy from my builder.

First two pages are instructions on wiring in general
Page 3 is a "Number list of all wires" in the kit
Page4 is a "checklist for hot leads"
Page5 is a "wiring chart" which is actually a breakdown listing different areas of the car
Engine compartment wiring,Instrument panel wiring, Ignition connectors,turn signal connector, Dimmer switch connector, tail wiring.

The wiring chart shows wire list number, gauge,origination,destination.
Page 5 thru 11 shows the cheesy pictorials, I won't call them schematics. By areas as above

So does this sound like a painless to you folks??

How can something so simple be so confusing.

Tim

[xlr8or]

All the painless kits I have used have had the wire numbers printed right on the wire every 12 inces or so and had a description on it next to the number. The descriptions were hard to read on the smaller wires but they were bundled well enough to figure it out quickly.

[Whaler]

I am wondering if this is a Painless. I have no numbers on the wires

Tim

[Roscoe]

Whaler,

It is not a painless kit unless your builder is a sicko and wiped all the numbers off each wire. As stated earlier, painless prints the number and full description about every 12" on each wire.

Better make that phone call.

Roscoe